Talk:Coal

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Is there any reason for the circular lignite link? --Yak 17:34, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Peak Coal study, Gregson Vaux 2 Coal as a clean energy source? 3 Use of Nuclear Power 4 Feedstock? 5 Carbon tax 6 Purity of coal mined 7 Exagram? 8 Coal mining history 9 How much energy from coal? 10 Black coal really formed from magma? 11 Edits to main page were revised 12 Serious discussion of Borderlands link and Kudraytsev 12.1 More rebuttals of Abiogenic evidence 13 Spontaneous combustion 14 POV on Peak Oil 15 Is Biomass Co-firing Compatible with Coal Gasification? 16 Pit-coal 17 Removal of magmatic coal theory 18 Difficulty in extinguishing underground coal fires 19 Estimate of total energy value 20 Coal fastest growing energy source

[edit] Peak Coal study, Gregson Vaux

This should be removed. EIA/DOE as well as other independent reports show a much longer timescale. The referenced article does not show how this particular 'hubbert curve' was calculated. Even the plot looks fishy.

I disagree that this reference to coal peaking should be removed. Perhaps one can disagree as to what the year of coal paking will be, but the concept is valid. The EIA's estimates of how long reserves will last assumes that the rate of coal production will remain constant which history has shown to not be the case. EIA also assumes that deeper and thinner coal seams are as easy to mine is thicker coal seems with less overburden. The author of the above concept does not seem to understand the distinction between peaking and running out of a nonrenewable resource.4.155.102.242 00:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coal as a clean energy source?

GE, along with some other corporate entities, is starting an ad campaign to convince the American public that coal is an innovative and clean alternative solution to our energy difficulties as a mostly petroleum-burning country.

My opinion: Coal is significantly more abundant than petroleum, and with current technologies the emissions can be reduced to nearly nothing. However, when I say "emissions" I'm referring to nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, particulates, and various other nasties. So calling it "clean" basically depends on your definition of the word. No amount of filtering is going to change the fact that when you burn a carbon or hydrocarbon compound (i.e. a fossil fuel) you're going to create a LOT of carbon dioxide, which is one of the biggest contributors to global warming. It also seems irresponsible to me to say "Hey, we're in trouble because we are overly dependent on a nonrenewable fossil fuel--let's switch to a different nonrenewable fossil fuel!" It seems to me that if we use coal at all, it should be as a band-aid, as the methadone to petroleum's heroin, and in the meantime we should be aggressively and stridently pursuing truly innovative energy alternatives in the clean, renewable category (various types of solar power come to mind).

What do the rest of you think? --Kuronekoyama 03:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen the campaign; however I think I can comment. Most of what you say is correct; you miss an additional key point; creating a kilowatt-hour of electricity (or a litre of automotive fuel, which is also possible) with coal results in far more carbon dioxide emissions than petroleum, or better still natural gas. Without the use of geosequestration, coal is the worst greenhouse polluting mechanism we have. As far as reserves go, the US, at least has enough coal to provide energy needs for a very long time, so that's not really a concern. What kind of climate the world ends up with if the US goes down that road is not the most pleasant thing to contemplate.

I believe this is no longer accurate. There are alternative methods of burning coal. Some of these seem to be condusive to trapping CO2. I'm not clear on what would be done with it after that. I've added some links. Once double checked, please add some of the information to the article, and find more info if you can. Mr. Jones 13:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See Clean coal and FutureGen. Simesa 20:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Coal in its current use is anything but clean. However, with scrubbers to remove pollutants and with carbon capture and storage to get rid of 80-90% of the CO2, it could do much less harm. However, this costs very much energy and increases the costs of energy from coal substantially - see carbon capture and storage. Better off with renewables IMO. Jens Nielsen 11:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Nuclear Power

The question of what we should do is complex, and involves many scientific uncertainties, technological questions, and philosophical questions. A key one to ponder is, if global warming is really that bad, how does nuclear power compare? --Robert Merkel 14:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree that coal is pretty much the worst energy source with the possible exception of biomass (trees) because it produces so many pollutants, besides just CO2. I think nuclear power is actually a plausible alternative; It produces no CO2 emissions, no particulates or sulfates, mercury, nitrates, or anything, and disturbs much less land through mining. The only drawbacks are the thermal pollution of rivers (although coal plants also need cooling systems and likely use similar processes) and the long-term radioactive waste that is produced. I think our best energy option is concentrating on natural gas, nuclear power, and perhaps coal gasification/liquefaction. In terms of renewables, the only one that is even slightly economically feasible right now is wind power. Bonus Onus 22:14, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

You mention the long-term waste almost in passing. Plutonium is very nasty stuff!

Biomass is not just trees. It includes animal waste, a pollutant which could be being put to better use, grain, etc, brewed to produce ethanol and a variety of other things. Many of these are efficient. As for burning trees, it depend on which trees (and how you burn them, I suspect).

BTW, why do renewables need to be economically viable? If subsidies are good enough for the military and arms industry, why not power generation? Mr. Jones 13:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You'll have my agreement that nuclear fission is better than coal and natural gas is better than petroleum, but they're only baby-steps in the right direction. Coal gasification/liquefaction is almost as dirty as the burning of solid coal, and "coal gas" was abandoned relatively long ago for being too dangerous. --Kuronekoyama 06:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Coal gas was abandoned as too dangerous for distribution to homes. It's not particularly bad compared to a lot of the stuff that flows around inside industrial chemical manufacturing plants. The quantites involved are probably much greater. Do you have any specific concerns?

Fission is insane. It produces plutonium which is capable of being exploded for tens of thousands of years apart from being highly toxic and radioactive. That's a long-term security nightmare. Glassification might offset that, but I'm not convinced. Can't it be reversed? Mr. Jones 13:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the plutonium pollutes itself long before that, and would have to be reprocessed first. Simesa 20:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I think you underestimate the potential of renewables. To begin with, essentially all renewable energy is in some way solar power; as it is the sun that provides energy to our planet which would, otherwise, be nothing but a dead lump of rock. Wind is caused by pressure imbalances in the atmosphere which come about largely due to temperature differentials caused by the sun; rivers that we can dam for hydroelectric power run because the sun evaporates water from the oceans and precipitates it as rain or snow at the river's source; even fossil fuels are the result of ancient life which was either powered by the sun (plant life) or powered by eating other life which was powered by the sun (herbivores eat the plants, carnivores eat the herbivores). The only exception I can think of would be geothermal power, which is also increasingly attractive. The problem with all of these solar-originated power sources is that they are indirect and relatively inefficient. --Kuronekoyama 06:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Some other renewables: hydraulic power, wave power, watermills and biological sources of methane (e.g. all that pig poop polluting the rivers in North Carolina [1]), etc. Some of these are capable of high yields, even if they are "inefficient". The billion year process that produces uranium is pretty inefficient, so I'm not sure that that's relevant. I guess you're concerned by the total amount of power that can be produced? Mr. Jones 13:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

However, some exciting strides have recently been made in direct generation of electricity from sunlight by photovoltaic cells. A solar cell built by Spectrolab in California recently set a record by producing electricity at a record-breaking 32% efficiency. Considering that the earth receives about a kilowatt of power per square meter normal to the sun, and considering that using some few square meters of far less efficient solar paneling on their roof many houses already more than generate their own electricity, photovoltaic electricity generation is becoming a viable future prospect in energy generation. --Kuronekoyama 06:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Amorphous sillicon (cheap and easy to make large) photovoltaic cells at 12.7% have also been manufactured. [2] I don't know if that particular technique is cheap or has the potential to be. The 32% type are very expensive at present: as the articles says, for space satellites. The price may come down, but it'll probably require a different manufacturing technique, and thus, critically, more investment and research. Mr. Jones 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On a related topic, the Globe and Mail recently reported that Exxon Mobil has decided solar and wind power to be commercially infeasible without government subsidy and don't plan to put any effort into it. --Kuronekoyama 06:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's hardly a surprise, is it? :-) They make huge amounts of money distributing oil, naturally with a markup. Admitting that wind or solar can work would weaken their position that oil is the only way. Anyway, they're not going to make the same profits with wind or solar, even if it is commercially viable because they're pulling from a pre-formed, concentrated source and running up an energy debt, not harvesting energy in real time. That's not the point, though, is it? If you can make more money by beating your workers, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. (And it not being the right thing doesn't stop companies who use sweat shops from doing it, either, albeit by proxy.) Mr. Jones 13:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Coal is more than 10,000 times more insane than nuclear power. mentions a Harvard study of 100,000 premature deaths per year in China due to coal use

4.6 billion tons of coal released more than 20,000 tons of Uranium and Thorium in to the air there is also Plutonium mixed in with it as the Uranium reacts with neutrons. Dirty as in nuclear dirty bombs. 80 one ton bombs every day.

health impacts of coal

about 10,000 coal mining deaths per year

22000 premature deaths in the US from coal

Over 200,000 premature deaths from coal every year. Some estimates are over 1,000,000. That is more than the deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki every year.

carbon sequestering costs $100-300 per ton of carbon. They hope to get it to $10 per ton of carbon carbon sequestering using amine absorbers and cryocoolers. Those methods will not get the radioactive material.

Coal is killing us now. Immediately with pollution and mining deaths. And slowly with radiation and pollution and poisons. Nuclear power can be scaled up to take the place of coal. Nuclear provides 17% of our electricity. Triple the 440 plants and we are off coal. Five times and we are off oil too for electricity.

Only 1.7GW of solar panels added in 2005. 12GW of wind power added in 2005. We use 4 terawatts and are adding 150-200GW per year in power.

Economic viability matters when you look at the full scale of the problem. Nuclear plants in China are built in 4 years. $1.5 billion for 1 GW plant. MIT has ways to boost nuclear power plant generation by 50% Thus 90 1.5 GW nuclear plants per year to meet power demands. Less 10% for wind and solar. Double that to get rid of coal over 10 years. Thorium reactors and some other nuclear reactor designs can process the worst of the nuclear waste from the old designs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blwang (talk • contribs) 06:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feedstock?

When i first saw this word, i thought it meant food for farm animals. From reading the article on it, i found out that it simply is a material that is fed into a factory or any other plant. In this case, every use would be feedstock, and there is no reason to use this subcategory. Bonus Onus 22:05, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Carbon tax

(William M. Connolley 13:44, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)) SEW removed:

If a carbon tax was introduced, this could make the economics of these processes significantly less attractive.

on the grounds that it was editorial comment. This seems unreasonable: it is a straightforward logical deduction from the info available, and useful too, so I've restored it.

[edit] Purity of coal mined

Coal consists of more than 50 percent by weight and more than 70 percent by volume of carbonaceous material (including inherent moisture).

Does that mean that, in weight, 50 % of the cole mined is cleared away and 50 % is used as a fuel in power plants? EnSamulili 11:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Material with carbon can be burned. It means 50% can burn, so I deduce the rest would become ash, although some of the material with carbon may also become ash. (SEWilco 16:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC))

That's what I was supposed to ask more specifically: how much of the dug out material is put the furnace? EnSamulili 17:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The above quote is referring to what is called "coal", which would go in a coal-burning furnace. Of course coal mining moves around other material in the process of extracting the coal. (SEWilco 19:22, 12 July 2005 (UTC))

I'm changing that to make it a little more clear. --SheeEttin 23:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Exagram?

The article currently says, "It has been estimated that, as of 1996, there are around one exagram (1 × 10¹⁵ kg) of total coal reserves economically accessible using current mining technology". Which is it, 10¹⁵ or 10¹⁸?

Darrien 18:14, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

The original was "one trillion (1×10¹²) tonnes".[3] (SEWilco 21:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC))

Well 1 exagram (i.e 10^18 grams) does equal 10^15 kilograms and all that seems to match 10^12 metric tonnes. Dragons flight 20:17, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

This is a case of confusion over units. 10^15 kg is 10^18 GRAMS, and 10^18 grams is an exagram. The base unit for prefixes for mass is the gram, even though the base unit for derived units in SI is the kilogram (which is pretty odd in itself). What I'm trying to say is that the current article quote is correct in saying that 10^15kg is an exagram. Swelke 20:56, June 19, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coal mining history

Should this article include a history of coal mining in The United States and perhaps worldwide? How about a timeline of people exploring for coal, and places of production?

These are some quotes in contradiction with the present article (coal was not mined prior to the late Middle Ages; i.e. after ca. 1000 AD.) :

• Coal mining in China dates back to 200 years before Jesus Christ was born.http://www.pitwork.net/history1.htm

• COAL WAS WORKED in the Roman period but to what extent is a matter for further study. Stephen Hughes (Head of Survey, Royal Commission on the Ancient & Historical Monuments of Wales - RCAHMW)http://www.icomos.org/studies/collieries.htm

--Theo F 13:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

So update the article. (SEWilco 18:10, 13 September 2005 (UTC))

In Britain as a whole the Romans used coal extensively, as a recent article in The Antiquaries Journal, testifies. : The Use of Coal in Roman Britain by Martin. J. Dearne and Keith Branigan - The Antiquaries Journal - 1996 [4]--Theo F 13:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The entry states "Lignite and other low-rank coals still contain a considerable amount of inherent moisture, which is water and other volatile components trapped within the component particles of the coal, known as its macerals." How can "other volatile components" be inherent moisture unless they're h20 and if they are then they're not other volatile components they are water. Former ASTM D5 member.

I'll fix it, but next time feel free to do it yourself. I assume that the problem is a grammatical one. --Robert Merkel 05:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How much energy from coal?

Does anyone know how much energy in heat one gets in burning a mol of coal? I think it should be included in the article ...

thank you, tygr007

It varies depending on the type of coal, notably with the moisture content. --Robert Merkel 13:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black coal really formed from magma?

There is an argument that black coal doesn't come from decayed vegetable matter and is instead created from the condensates of magma! The argument goes that it's brown coal comes from decayed matter.

There is no mention in this wiki of this - can anyone credit or discredit this theory? I know the accepted theory on this, however it's not the only one so for completeness should be mentioned here.

Dr. Thomas Gold has written a book called The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels. There's some info on it here: http://www.blackopradio.com/forums/messages.cfm?threadid=9982BC6C-123F-ECE3-BCC748A6433567D1

Very interesting read - perhaps if there's anyone from Russia or China who can verify that this is becoming the more accepted understanding of formation of black coal, as opposed to the common Western belief, we may be able to post both views on the main page.

Cut your two theories bit and added a short para at the end re: Gold's speculations. Don't think Gold had enough evidence for it to be elevated to theory, seems a bit of a stretch to me - but maybe I'm wrong (along with ~99.99% of geologist?)*note (millions and millions flies do not be wrong, they eat shit)* Seems Gold was good at thinking outside the box - and that's not a bad thing at all, but it's gotta be backed by strong evidence to convince us. Vsmith 03:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This is speculative BS and yet another wacky theory proposed and purported by a fringe group of leaf-head individuals who come onto Wiki having never seen the inside of a coal mine in their lives.

First of all, black coal and even graphite can have fossils. It is not at all uncommon for black coal to have some (admittedly at times deformed) remains of plants. Othertimes, you can see, viz 1) dinosaur footprints in the hangingwall sediments f Jurassic sub-bituminous and bituminous coals in the Surat basin in Australia which I have seen, in a mine, with my very own eyes. Unless they had dino-booties of flame retardance, this is sedimentary. Viz, 2) plant fossils. I can get my father to take a photo of some black coal he has with a glossopteris leaf. Often black coal is transitional from brown coal with increasing depth and degree of metamorphism.

Secondly, ALL black coal, and I mean ALL is bracketed by SEDIMENTS. So how is this some effervescent ejaculation of magmatic carbon inseminating the sedimentary layers which have ample fossil evidence, and ample biostratigraphic markers to fix that coal in time and space? Magmatic origins are unneccessary and the figmen of the imagination of Thomas Gold. And who it seems, is a hero to a bunch of equally weird Russian scientists.

Arguments and bizarro-fantastique theories are OK. Trust me, when you see three foot long dino footprints on the back of a coal drive, you swiftly realise that this magmatic hypothesis is a hunk of coprolite.

Finally, if this hardly scientific link is all you crackpot joyboys can come up with the defend your vandalism of well-established science with suppositions of a suppositorial nature, then I'm afraid there'll be some revertscoming along. Grah. .

How freaking conventient.Rolinator 14:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to main page were revised

I added a reference to difference of views on creation of black coal and user Vsmith has revised to good effect.

Since then I've found other supporting articles. It appears Russia has actually adopted the newer views on the creation of black coal and is using them with success.

http://www.red-ice.net/specialreports/2005/09sep/oilnotfossil.html

http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/endfos.html

It doesn't appear this is bogus information however I would still like to hear from anyone in Russia who can provide an authorative statement on the matter.

Why ask a Russian? Lets see. Anyone want random sprinking of appeal to authority from the Red Ice link?

• "In fact, oil is abiotic, not the product of long decayed biological matter." A fact? I thought it was in dispute, according to (theory of) Abiogenic petroleum origin
• "In fact, working in the 1950s, Russian and Ukrainian scientists, cut off from the Western World's oil supply, applied their keen minds to the problem and, by the 1960s, had thoroughly demolished the idea of oil as a 'fossil fuel,'" Cut off from the world's oil supply? Like the ones in central asia that Hitler wanted so bad? What is it called...the Kaspian Sea? OMG! WTF!
• "In fact, realizing that oil is a self-renewing resource puts the neocon agenda into a new perspective." Wow, if facts were as easy to discover as saying it out loud and holding your mouth at the right angle, I'd be able to say, in fact, I have a ten inch dick and fifty bazillion bucks and MAdonna takes it in the butt. Because it's a fact.

Or, shall it reveal its secret solicalist bias, this website purporting to show the fruits of the Communist man's sweaty, stolid brow and the Capitalists' evil Machiavellian demonic prowess at economically enslaving mankind? Like...

• "America's feels it must make war to take other people's oil: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, the Caspian Basin, Sudan, etcetera." Oh no, not evil capitalist America! Taking the oil!
• "And we will get in bed with them so long as we can have the lion's share of their oil, and the say-so as to who gets the rest. And therein lays the evil genius, secret and sham of the 'Peak Oil' put on." Wow. This is high science and a reputable journal to boot! Quick, let me cite the living figgins out of this motherf'ing article, its perfectly objective!

Oh! Then we cite reliable sources, like the cecau.org.au website; The "Citizens Electroal Council of Australia". Lets go into the details;

1. Aussies are the incompetent slack-jawed yokels of global politics. We do whatever America says, then we do it again because we're dumb. Trust me, I am one.
2. The CEC are a mid-left loopy brigade of "concerned citizens" who are all for internalising and parochial policies because, you know, we can do without the gooks and chinks and wops and dagos and towelheads running the place! Lets all elect our dumb yokel selves! Because a rich American billionaire tells us to, in case the aliens zap our nonexistent brains! Yeah. Real credible source there.
3. Lyndon LaRouche. Need I say more?
4. Lyndon Larouche. There, fight tin-foil hats with tin foil wiki hats! Lydon for Prez!
5. 'WANKSPEAK. In his subsequent search for a metrical standard for this treatment of the functional role of cognition, he adopted the Leibniz-Gauss-Riemann standpoint, as represented by Bernhard Riemann's 1852 habilitation dissertation. Hence, the employment of Riemannian conceptions to LaRouche's own discoveries became known as the LaRouche-Riemann Method. Uh-huh. Yeah. He's got a strong wrist is all I get outta this.
6. Red Ice is, shock! a LaRouche mouthpart! Fuck me drunk and call me Sally, I smell a political bias!

In short, cause this has gone on and I think amply demonstrated that all who propose that Coal is non-organic are asshats, this is BS and should be removed from the debate. Cheers, Sally, AKA Rolinator 14:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious discussion of Borderlands link and Kudraytsev

OK. Several points;

• In what is known as Kudryavtsev's Rule "any region in which hydrocarbons are found at one level will be seen to have hydrocarbons in large or small quantities, but at all levels down to and into the basement rock." Where oil and gas deposits are found, there is often a concordant coal seam or seams above them. Where the vertical stacking of hydrocarbon deposits is found such as in Iran, Java and Sumatra, and Oklahoma amongst other locales, drill shafts for oil and gas wells penetrate shallower coal beds. Gas is usually the deepest in the pattern, and can alternate with oil. All petroleum deposits have a capstone generally impermeable to carbon's upward migration, and this capstone provides the damming mechanism allowing accumulated deposition.
• Rebuttal:
  • Firstly, it is fallacious to say that all basement rocks in all coal/oil/gas regions have been drilled. And, methane is NOT a hydrocarbon insofar as it can be produced abiogenically (which no one argues) or biogenically. But, again, not all basement rocks have been drilled.
  • Secondly, not all oil regions have coal above them. Younger oil deposits (Cretaceous and younger) do not have significant coal seams above them, certianly not black coal which could be produced by "magma" or whatever the fuck. Corrollary to this is, there are NO Permian brown coals left because a) under the orthodox coal formation theory, brown coal exists close to the surface and, hence, near-surface older rocks are less well preserved. So of course we only have sub-bituminous and bituminous ranked coals of >Cretaceous age preserved! Everything else has been eroded.
  • Sedimentary sequence stratigraphy explains coal being above oil as a consequence of a move from predominantly marine conditions to terrestrial-fluvial conditions as a basin fills with sediment. Ie; you pour enough mud into the ocean, you form a delta, which grows a bog, which forms coal, voila. You have coal lying over the top of an oil source rock deeper in the basin. You do not need the mantle to be seeping oil to explain this.
  • Gas is not always the deepest in the pattern. Gas is associated with all other coal seams and oil deposits. Gas, if it is in the lowest part of the basin, may be separate from oil because either a) the oil has migrated upwards b) the lowest source rocks in a basin are devoid of sufficient kerogen to produce oil or c) it is abiogenic methane. The last is not conclusive proof that oil comes from the mantle and coal comes from magma. If it did, there should be no vertical segregation of oil and gas and coal. In fact, the deeper you go, the more likely you should be to find coal seams. Why don't we? See the point above.
• Earthquakes, like volcanos, may also be related to upwelling hydrocarbons. The shifting of large subterranean gas volumes could easily account for earthquake action and could also provide a workable model for tsunamis.
• Rebuttal;
  • Firstly, seismic evidence of tectonic plates is quite coherent when it comes to where earthquakes lie and how this relates to plate tectonics. This argument here is selective in its evidence. On one hand, we use the mantle and plate teconics to argue for regional distribution of oil and gas, and then we discount tectonics as an explanation for Earthquakes.
  • Further to this, if you consider than oil is produced from structural traps including fault-closed sub-basins, fault-bounded stratigraphic pinchouts, etc, the production of these trapsites is linked inextricably with the imparting of structure from plate tectonics. It should be no surprise then, that linear arrays of oil deposits are found when you zoom out on a map to a massive scale. For instanc, the linear array in the figure on that site may be interpreted as being related to the distribution of land, from which coal or oil can be drilled, versus the true distribution. I do note, quite readily, that very little in the way of data is given on marine occurrences of oil on that figure, perhaps because to put that on would disprove the whole point of the figure?
  • And, further to this, sedimentary basins form adjacent to plate tectonic boundaries, especially in an arc environment like Indonesia or Malaysia. Also, and this is a good question to answer, why are there no hydrocarbon deposits being exploited in Greenland, which is sitting astride a major spreading zone, if there are mantle hydrocarbons? Why doesn't coal form above oceanic plates in deepwater sediments? Why is coal always formed in delta-lagoonal or fluvial environments? Does it miraculously pick these rocks as a trapsite, or is the orthodox view (backed up by dino footprints and fossil evidence) more correct?

[edit] More rebuttals of Abiogenic evidence

• OK, some other rebuttals of the "evidence" used to support these abiogenic theories;
  • Meteorite Orgueil was found to contain amino acids, which are NOT the so-called 'petroleum' products purportedly found in meteorites according to this paper, used as a citation to support abiogenesis. So, if you are lacking actual hydrocarbons and have 70 amino acids which can be catalyzed by HCN, you do not have proof that petroleum (ie; long-chain hydrocarbons) can be formed abiogenically.
  • Meteorite Murchison

"The meteorite also contained hydrocarbons which appeared abiogenic in character and was enriched with a heavy isotope of carbon, confirming the extraterrestrial origin of its organics." So, the debate is hardly over, and these hydrocarbons, amino acids and "sugars" are hardly evidence that we have crude oil formed in space, like the links supplied as evidence seem to suggest. Let no one be confused; synthesising amino acids abiogenically is plausible; synthesising short-chain hydrocarbons is plausible. Add a bit of oxygen, and you get a "sugar". We are, however, debating whether or not it is more likely that the vast majority of oil and coal on Earth is biological or not, and hence whether it is possible to abiogenically create these deposits, and so far, the evidence is weighted towards producing ONLY simple, chort-chain "organic" compounds.

• • The Borderlands.com article also uses the following argument for magmatic coal and/or abiogenic coal:
    

Vein-like deposits of coal have been described, such as the Canadian type known as Albertite, suggesting the possibility that the coal was at one time liquid. This is a further nail in the coffin for the increasingly tenuous conjecture that the coal beds are merely ancient swamps & peat bogs. It is almost a certainty that the coal was injected as a liquid into the fissures. In the case of Albertite, a vein coal from New Brunswick, Canada, liquid petroleum is found in cavities, as well as in cavities of related shales.
Firstly, albertite is asphalt, and was formed as the solidified liquid residue of an oil show within the culmination of an anticline, so it is formed from oil, not coal as is claimed. Thus, this is NOT evidence of coal discordant with stratigraphy. Secondly, this hardly discounts the ideas of biogenic petroleum let alone coal, since the whole idea of oil traps is that they leak, and are temporary, hence why albertite was formed. Hell, just go ahead and read the description by geologists in the 1860's who discount "liquid coal". Seems out abiogenic proponents, including the russians, are misrepresenting the truth about these Albertite occurrences, meteoric "petrochemicals" and so on, to make their point.
This is bias and as such, negates the value of their arguments.

I'm sorry. I could go on ad infinitum. Kudratsyev's theories are fine for a tiny, minuscule proportion of hydrocarbon deposits, usually of small-chain hydrocarbons such as methane, ethane, propane and butane, in the rare Proterozoic basement rocks (but even in these cases they are Neoproterozoic rocks ~500-880 Ma old and life's been around for 2400 Ma, so this could be contamination). But it fails, utterly, to explain any of the major carbon deposits of the Earth in any satisfactory manner when you actually put it to the test. Sites like Borderlands and Red Ice are all well and good if you just want a comforting story about how the big bad Corporations suck ass major-league and are oppressing you. But this is science, people. If these shitty hypotheses make it onto Wikipedia and sound like fact, they are little more than political statements. In my opinion, this encyclopedia can remove all these quasi-political statements from the Science pages, and leave them to rot in the unwanted shit heap of tinfoil hat land. I, for one, will not sit by and idly let LaRouche and people who actually believe a criminal knows about geology, get away with reducing articles like this to little more than alt-web counterculture monuments.Rolinator 03:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spontaneous combustion

Coals are usually mined wet and may be stored wet to prevent spontaneous combustion.

This statement from the article sounds logical, but is questionable. If I recall correctly, higher rank coals do not have the spontaneous combustion problem that lower rank (higher moisture) coals do. The primary method of preventing spontaneous combustion in sub-bituminous coals is compacting to exclude air (oxygen), not wet storage. I have seen a stray pile of (sub-bituminous) coal begin smoldering on its own if left exposed to the atmosphere for a few days. --Blainster 17:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, there are anthracite seams in India which are burning uncontrolled. While harder to ignite a low-volatile coal, once going, it is also harder to put them out. I think you are probably right; low rank coals are more prone, because they have alpihatics, and the carbon isless pure, making the C more readily oxidised (volatile bonds more accessible to adding O2 and combusting).

Seam gas is probably the most salient point to make here; methane will tend to be the most volatile, flammable compound, and most sub-bituminous coals are quite methane rich. Anthracite, by comparison, ought not to be very methane rich. Genrally speaking.

Another mechanism by which ores (including metallic ores) can combust is volatile sulphides, especially the notoriously reactive marcasite. The only way to stop marcasite going up is to keep it wet; and aside from this specific case, generally if you keep a coal wet, it won't go up. Water keeps oxygen levels down, helps dissolve methane and neutralise it as a methane-hydrate, and also tends to keep marcasite inert. Comminution of the coal will increase surface area of the coal, which might not be what you want...except for liberating more methane, which would help...but not if you have marcasite, because it would make it more volatile.

In the end, the sentence is fairly correct. It is a omplex problem to do with methane, volatile content, and whether or not there is sulphides. And as you can see, such an explanation as I've given, isn't easily condensed onto the main entry.

Rolinator 12:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV on Peak Oil

I believe "Coal liquefaction is one of the backstop technologies that will limit escalation of oil prices and mitigate the alleged effects of peak oil..." is a clear violation of the NPOV policy. Calling peak oil's affects "alleged" denigrates them as a lesser concept, and there is no assurance that synfuel "will" do anything. I am editing this section. Windupcanary 3 June 2006

[edit] Is Biomass Co-firing Compatible with Coal Gasification?

Biomass co-firing is the process of burning biomass (such as wood chips, rice hulls, saw dust, grasses, and possibly even dried dung or anything else that works) along with coal to both act as an economical supplement as well as reduce emissions. (In the case of CO2, the biomass is almost always carbon neutral.)

This article really should have some mention of co-firing, but what I was wondering is if co-firing is compatible with coal gasification. Does coal gasification require purified coal and only coal, or can large amounts (over 20%) of the feedstock be biomass and still burn acceptably? The reason I ask is that I'm curious if, in combination with carbon capture and storage, the resulting power could be not just zero emission, but carbon negative. It's also a bit disinegenous to call coal gasification with carbon capture and storage "zero emission" as that still leaves the emissions resulting from coal mining, transport, and processing. If co-firing coal gasification is possible, then what percentage of biomass would be required to compensate the emissions from mining, transport, processing, etc.? I'm wondering if co-firing coal gassification with carbon capture and storage could end up being an economical (small?) way of mitigating global warming. Coal burning to reduce CO2 emissions? Crazy, but it might actually work.

[edit] Pit-coal

What is pit-coal [5]? Cutler 15:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Pit-coal is an early term for what we call coal, that is, mined coal. [6]. Contrast with "char coal", or what we call charcoal, which is made by burning wood in a reducing atmosphere. --John Nagle 06:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of magmatic coal theory

Basically, this was agenda pushing by the people from abiogenic petroleum origin. I don't know who did it, but I missed the part where the presence of vanadium and other heavy metals in coal was "interesting to note", almost like you only get vanadium and heavy metals from, I don't know...the mantle? And like thats some klind of proof that coal is formed according to some hinky and provably false theory spouted by a crazy astrophysicist who only managed to pollute the scientific world with his crap because he had tenure and couldn't get fired.

The fact is that there is vandium, cadmium and nickle in everything, including provably biological objects such as a human being. This does not mean if a human has 1ppm vanadium as most coals do, that humans are formed by the seepage of petroleum along faults from the mantle. This is specious and illogical fallacy and as such, it is not worthy of even considering in any kind of online encyclopedia. Leave it up to Kenney and the GRC wackjobs to promote drilling the mantle for oil.Rolinator 02:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you found someone saying carbon fuels come from magma? Who? (SEWilco 21:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC))

Where are you living, in which world can you conscionably say that "plants are also proof against organic origin"? Just think about what you are saying here.

You are a clear Gold proponent. You are saying, by the satamant that plants are also proof against organic origin in your reversion of the image caption and reinstatement of the fantasy of magmatic coal, by whatever alchemy or magic proposed by Gold, that fossilised plant matter is not produced by plants, and that you support the idea of a mechanism by which plant fossils (which are not organic, right...because you said they weren't. Because plant fossils are put there by the bearded sky fairy or something) somehow trap upwelling oils and are converted to coal only at a certain point. And nothing else traps upwelling oils. Or, we can scoot over to abiogenic petroleum origin, and watch you live out your deluded fantasy world where you believe that oil comes from the mantle. Seriously, you are really taking the cake when you say plants are also proof against organic origin. That is simply the biggest fallacy ever known to man. Rolinator 00:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As Gold pointed out, plants embedded in coal is not proof that the coal itself was formed from the plants. One point is that the plants were not destroyed by the process which created coal, supposedly by the conversion of plant material If you find animal remains in the La Brea Tar Pits does that mean the asphalt is of animal origin? And did I say the mantle is the known source? (SEWilco 05:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC))

OK, so why do we find higher degrees of preservation of fossils from black to brown to lignite to peat? Does this fit more with the theory of increasing coal rank converting pplant material to coal (reduced carbon) or does it fit with the whole "magic" of coal being miraculously nly formed in plant fossil bearing strata several feet thick only in thoroughly zeolite-facies metamorphosed sedimentary rocks which fit defined sedimentological associations? If he (Gold) or anyone can find ANY proof of a sub-bituminous coal which lies within non-sedimentary rocks, which does NOT contain ANY plant material, I will eat humble pie. The orthodox coal theory is science which, since you obviously forget how the scientific method works, I will remind you is formed from continual testing of hypotheses to provide a theory from which we explain nnatural pghenomenon. If the theories of coal formation have stood the test of time for over 150 years without a single verifiable case of an exception to the rule being seen, then Iam afraid that the plant matter in coal (because it is so pervasive and constitutes ALL of the mass of the coal) is proof of origin from biological sources. When you find coal without plant matter (not the asphaltite) then you may deign to claim it is magmatic. After all, where are the coals which are not associated with terrigenous sediments and plant matter? Your arguments are based on a perceived contradiction which is not there at all.Rolinator 01:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Gold did say that plant matter, such as peat, was a component in bituminous coals. Search for "anoxic" in The Origin of Methane.... And as the definition of sub-bituminous coal requires plant material then of course it must be present, but please do ask Gold for examples and let us know if he answers.[7] And I'm not claiming the source must be magmatic. (SEWilco 06:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC))

Of course, black coal is formed by abiogenic processes. Mercury is commonly found in coals and there is no biological processes with mercury association because mercury is poisonous. Other heavy metals such as nickel, vanadium, lead, and arsenic, uranium have close association with coal. Methane upwelling from earth's mantle through deep faults that form oil and gas fields, at near surface promote coalification and preserve vegetal and some animal tissues. Also bitumen as in tar pits. Preservation of fossils creates a paradox. Probably coal could form as solid hydrocarbons or peat coalification by methane upwelling.

Mercury is typically NOT accosiated geochemically with mantle derived hydrothermal processes. It is typically associaed with low-temperature hydrothermal processes...typically less than 150 degrees. In essence, diagenesis can prompt mercury to remobilise, and coal, being carbon, is a great reductive trap for metals. So its no surprise you would find mercury in coal. Or any metal. As for vanadium, nickel, etc, there are 'mineral particles associated with coal. Whether they be in volcanic ash interbeeds or sediments, ALL rocks contain some trace of vanadium, nickel, etc, even if it is a few parts per million. So, quote some figures at me for ppms of metals in coal ash and see if you get to a typical mantle amount of several hundred ppm Ni, >100ppm V, >200ppm Cu, etc. And then with a coincident <5ppm Zr, <1% Al, <0.5% K, etc etc. Arguing that coals have trace metals in them as being interesting is fine, but frankly, I don't think its interesting that coal has trace elements in it. Its pretty bloody obvious that coal will have trace elements in it. Rolinator 01:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed several instances of personal attacks and incivility. Let's tone down the language and avoid personal attacks. Vsmith 20:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difficulty in extinguishing underground coal fires

As a non-geologist layperson, I would be very interested in seeing more detail added to the Coal Fires section. Specifically an explanation as to how it is that underground coal fires are able to burn for so long (since a person's notion of a "fire" is probably something that burns much more rapidly than coal and requires much more rapid delivery of atmospheric oxygen) and what the challenges are in extinguishing such fires. BobbyPeru 19:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Under the heading 'Liquification' it is stated that "The Fischer-Tropsch process of indirect synthesis of liquid hydrocarbons was used in Nazi Germany, and for many years by Sasol in South Africa — in both cases because those regimes were politically isolated and unable to purchase crude oil on the open market." As it stands, this statement is misleading. It is correct that both countries did not have crude oil resources and large coal stocks. Under the respective political dispensations of the time, it made sense for both countries to address oil needs using the available coal. However, South Africa has always been able to buy crude oil from the Middle East (notably Iran) and during the oil crisis of the 1970s South Africa held large crude oil reserves, later disposed of. It should be noted that today, 12 years after minority rule in South Africa was replaced by majority rule and supposedly re-access to international markets, South Africa continues to produce a large proportion of its liqued fuels and other chemicals through coal liquification. Jan Viljoen 09:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Estimate of total energy value

The text says:

The energy value of all the world's coal is well over 100,000 quadrillion Btu (100 zettajoules).

Could I ask for a ref on this? It seems to require there to be about four times the mass of total reserves. Ordinary Person 13:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coal fastest growing energy source

"Coal is the fastest growing energy source in the world, with coal use increasing by 25% for the three-year period ending in December 2004 (BP Statistical Energy Review, June 2005)." Coal comsumption is indeed growing fast, but the 25% consumption increase 2001-2004 does not appear to be what the cited source says. BP Statistical Review of World Energy (June 2006--I don't see the 2005 version) includes historical data from 1965. 2004 world consumption is 117.5% of 2001 consumption according to these figures. Consumption continued to increase even more rapidly in 2005; 2005 consumption exceeded 2002 consumption by 20.4%. Suggested edit: "Coal is the fastest growing energy source in the world, with coal use increasing by 20% for the three-year period ending in 2005 (BP Statistical Energy Review, June 2006)." 192.231.124.80 16:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Carmen Giunta