Talk:Cloistered rule

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I do not think that the article at present is correct, as is obviously mixes two distinct systems: on one hand, cloistered rule, and on the other, rule by regents.

Cloistered rule, in my knowledge, certainly has not that dimension of a shogun or a regent. It is a clear-cut system of predecessor ruling from "retirement".

Regents, shoguns, majordomos and/or other "VICARS" is a different system: monarch is only nominal power because the government is held by an underling.

We should make distinct narratives of these different systems. Arrigo 19:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I wonder what Cloistered rule in English means. I guess, though, one of these may be correct:

1. The system in which the patriarch of the royal family, who has retired as Tenno, has actual power or the system compared to this in which a person such as Sodanyaku who has already retired still has actual power. Translation of Insei in Japanese.
2. The system in which an assistant to Tenno or Shogun, such as Sessho and Kampaku in the Imperial Court in Kyoto, Shikken in the Kamakura shogunate, Kanrei in the Ashikaga shogunate and Tairo and Karo in the Tokugawa shogunate, has actual power. This system is different from 1 in that the assistant has not been Tenno yet or he does not belong to royal or shogunal family.
3. Both 1 and 2. The system in which the actual authority is different from the nominal one.

Anyway, I'm afraid this article has to be rewritten as Arrigo pointed out.
Spirituelle 08:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the term originally meant that the ruler retired and (at least nominally) became a Buddhist monk. The cloister here is the monastery. It would be worthwhile to make this clear. (I'm not sure if I recalled it correctly, though.) Should the term "cloistered rule" be applied at all to regency, sodanyaku and other systems? Fg2 05:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Joko is not someone retired to a monastery. It just means an ex-emperor who retired from the throne. They sometimes become a monk and then they are called "hoo (法皇)." I find using English word cloister confuses the readers who don't know much about Japanese history. How about rather changing the title of the article to Insei, and mention "cloistered emperor" as a term also refers to it (like the French version does)?

Also, as mentioned by Arrigo, the last paragraph has to be completely rewritten or at least separated as "related topics." Aotake 00:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote Joko and created Cloistered Emperor (check please...). I definitively agree with Aotake, I think the cloistered rule here article should deal with the Insei system (Monastery = "in" = "cloister") not with the various regency systems. Problem being, there are several articles linking to here, with not a lot to do with the Insei. Is someone courageous enough to start the rewrite ? incl. the rewrite of the linking articles...Ex : the Sessho and Kampaku articles says "The Sesshō and Kampaku had held the practical powers of the ruling emperor, conducting cloistered rule until shogunates took over the power from them.".... as far as I remember Sessho and Kampaku were not (ex-) emperors nor were they "cloistered". We need to separate Cloistered Rule and Japanese Imperial Regency Tensaibuta 16:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC) .

I tried to clean a bit linking articles (actually it was not that problematic). Next step is cleaning up of this article... Tensaibuta 17:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I attempted a rewrite... should the accuracy mark be removed ?Tensaibuta 02:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I read and rewrote the last part a little. I think the accuracy mark can be removed, but I wait for another day or two. Aotake 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for writing in Japanese, because I cannot write what I am going to explain in English. 本項目がだいぶ充実してきたことを嬉しく思います。これならaccuracy markは取り払っても構わないでしょう。その上で一言二言ほど。院政を行った上皇は、天皇の代行者としてではなく、あくまで「日本国王（=治天の君）」及び「天皇家の家督者」の立場から政務に当たっていました。「天皇家の家督者」という立場は父権に基づくものであり、平安中期の貴族社会に見られ始めていた「家」の成立と深い関係があると考えられています。また、院政が始まった背景には、平安時代を通じて不安定だった皇位継承を安定的にしようとする意図があったとされています。こうした点は近年の院政研究で明らかとなり、研究上、非常に重視されていますので、どなたか加筆して頂けると嬉しいです。

この他、院政を始めたのは確かに白河上皇ですが、前代の後三条天皇が院政開始へ与えた影響は小さくないこと、院政は平安末期だけ存続したのではなく、むしろ鎌倉初期の後白河院政・後鳥羽院政期が院政最盛期とされており、少なくとも室町前期までは政治的に十分機能し、形式的にも江戸時代まで存続していたこと、なども記述されると良いと思います。それでは、Thanx-a-lot.--Shimoxx 16:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Shimoxx for the above. Following your comments I expanded a bit the article. Tell me if that seems OK to you Tensaibuta 11:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's my pleasure that Tensaibuta san wrote quite accurate expantion. I thank you for your great job. --Shimoxx 18:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)