Category talk:Cities and towns in Russia
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Duplets and subcategories containig only a few cities and towns ought to be eliminated.
[edit] Category name
Would not it be more practical to name this category as "Cities in Russia"? As an illustration, in the U.S. roughly half of streets are named Streets, and the other half are named Avenues. Still, the List of Streets and Avenues (including Parkways and other less common names) is commonly named as the List of streets. The same is in Russia. Список улиц includes not only улицы, but also проспекты, переулки, и проч. MapLover 05:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it is a good idea (if only because such change will require a lot of work without providing any tangible benefits), but since you already had a chance to hear my views out on more than one occasion :) at Talk:Subdivisions of Ukraine, I'll stand aside and let others voice their opinions as well.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- You gave me as an example Talk:Subdivisions of Ukraine, but it is too long for me today :) My opinion that the best solution is to have a category "Cities and villages in Russia" similar to "Населённые пункты России", divided into several subcategories like "Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast". In ru_wiki for each article about a city or town we have 2 categories: "Населённые пункты Московской области" ("Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast") and "Города России" ("Cities and towns in Russia") and one navigational template "Города Московской области" ("Cities and towns in Moscow Oblast"). I think this combination of 2 categories and 1 navigational template is the best. MaxiMaxiMax 14:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, Max, but I think you'd better read that long discussion first :) "Cities and villages in Russia" variant is bad because it omits both urban-type settlements and rural settlements other than villages. "Settlements in Russia" makes a lot more sense if we go that route, although it is also not a perfect solution (the term "settlement" is still ambiguous). "Inhabited locations in Russia" is the most precise and all-encompassing wording ("населённые пункты"="inhabited locations"), but it may sound too, erm, pedantic for some people.
- I like the solution employed in Russian Wikipedia quite a bit, but, unfortunately, it is not easily portable to en_wiki. The problem is with the translations of the terms: "населённые пункты"<>"cities and villages" (see above), and "города"<>"cities and towns" (see Talk:Subdivisions of Ukraine). Hence, we need something else. My ambiguity-hating detail-oriented personality cries for categories such as "Inhabited locations in Russia" (for all kinds of settlements), "Urban settlements with town status in Russia" (for cities/towns), "Urban-type settlements in Russia" (for urban-type settlements), and "Rural settlements in Russia" (for villages and other rural settlements), but I understand that names like these will not evoke a comment more intelligent than "Huh?" from some readers who are just trying to get a general idea of what Russian administrative structure is all about.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, I see your problem now. For my opinion we don't have to be so sophisticated and precise, KISS :). Usually when you fill a form in a web-site asking about your place you see just "city" despite you live in a town or a village. In Russia we have more than 20 different types of settlements, but we usually name them just as города и сёла. For my first glance just category "Cities in Russia" was okay, and I expected that for most English speakers it includes towns as well. But there was an attempt to create a separate category "Towns in Russia" which could not be consistent since in Russia there is no special town status clearly separated from city status. So, we decided to rename the category to "Cities and towns in Russia", that's why we have what we have. In Commons we have the commons:Category:Cities and villages in Russia and nobody complaints since it is clear for all that it includes all types of places where people live, this method is also used for about a 40 countries there (commons:Category:Cities and villages). That's why I think that 2 categories ("Cities and towns in Russia" for all города России and "Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast" for all населённые пункты в субъекте РФ) could be the good solution for en_wiki as well. Of course if you develop a better and not too complicated category system I will support it. So, my main idea follows Occam's razor principle. Have a nice day! MaxiMaxiMax 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Max, I was actually going to complain about that cat's name in Commons, but I just don't have time for it now :) When people don't find what they are looking for in Wikipedia, they don't really complain much, they just walk away elsewhere, creating an illusion that all is fine in our little kingdom. Wikipedia is not just a form on some website; we are an encyclopedia. KISS principle is good, but not when it is used at the expense of precision and, ultimately, quality. Just because most English speakers have no idea what kinds of settlements Russia has is not, in my opinion, a reason to oversimplify the whole cat system. A simpler system would be good for many purposes, but those willing to look further and figure out exactly how Russian administrative structure is composed should not be denied that chance. Balancing simplicity and the wealth of information is what we are trying to do, but so far all solutions have been skewed either one way (too primitive) or another (too elaborated and confusing). Anyway, if you have any further suggestions, you are always welcome to list them here. Thanks for your feedback so far!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, I see your problem now. For my opinion we don't have to be so sophisticated and precise, KISS :). Usually when you fill a form in a web-site asking about your place you see just "city" despite you live in a town or a village. In Russia we have more than 20 different types of settlements, but we usually name them just as города и сёла. For my first glance just category "Cities in Russia" was okay, and I expected that for most English speakers it includes towns as well. But there was an attempt to create a separate category "Towns in Russia" which could not be consistent since in Russia there is no special town status clearly separated from city status. So, we decided to rename the category to "Cities and towns in Russia", that's why we have what we have. In Commons we have the commons:Category:Cities and villages in Russia and nobody complaints since it is clear for all that it includes all types of places where people live, this method is also used for about a 40 countries there (commons:Category:Cities and villages). That's why I think that 2 categories ("Cities and towns in Russia" for all города России and "Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast" for all населённые пункты в субъекте РФ) could be the good solution for en_wiki as well. Of course if you develop a better and not too complicated category system I will support it. So, my main idea follows Occam's razor principle. Have a nice day! MaxiMaxiMax 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- You gave me as an example Talk:Subdivisions of Ukraine, but it is too long for me today :) My opinion that the best solution is to have a category "Cities and villages in Russia" similar to "Населённые пункты России", divided into several subcategories like "Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast". In ru_wiki for each article about a city or town we have 2 categories: "Населённые пункты Московской области" ("Cities and villages in Moscow Oblast") and "Города России" ("Cities and towns in Russia") and one navigational template "Города Московской области" ("Cities and towns in Moscow Oblast"). I think this combination of 2 categories and 1 navigational template is the best. MaxiMaxiMax 14:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
