Talk:Church of the East & Abroad

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There are in fact a myriad number of groups claiming lineage from the various churches of the Middle East. For one it is difficult to prove that they are not who they say they are, due to the manifest barriers of language and culture. These people know just enough about the Christian culture of the Middle East and India to know that nobody will speak out against them. However times are changing and many legitimate jurisdictions in the Middle East and elsewhere are now getting fed up.

[edit] I was a perspective clergy member of this Jurisdiction

I personally spoke with "His Holiness the Catholicos Patriarch Mar Isagelos Michai (Yaza)" etc... I only had conversations with 3 people from this group. That means I can only confirm the existence of 3 individual members. They seem to inflate or exaggerate greatly their membership, holdings, etc. If they would just be honest with themselves and the rest of the world I think they might be able to make better head-way. As they say...bad news travels faster.

I must say that I have been watching this church for about 3 years now and have noticed that they will sing which ever way the wind is blowing. In fact they watch other churches websites and use other churches verbiage to connect themselves therwith, if only in using similar terminology and theological positions. Note...they even started using the moniker "Thomasine" in their plethora of webspages even though each groups theology is antithetical! Hilarious.

Although I think Budo can be a bit uhh arrogant but I do think he hits the mark here. Bravo

My best advice for all...be honest! AnDruidh

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The vandalism of this page is appalling; nothing that was posted was factual as per the changes that keep getting made to it. And I do not know why Budo continues to attack this religious organization with his edits, not even quoting sources. I thought quoting sources was important with featuring information on Wikipedia.

Greetings Marcus Levine, Yes quoting independent sources is an important part of starting an article on wikipedia. Could you please put fourth one independent source which gives any info about your New Age church which is not from a site (e.g. hard copies with ISBNs or ither published works please, not internet sites based in Kentuky or other propaganda tools) owned by your operation? If you could also respond to the text below annd correct it if it is wrong point by point.

BTW why did the patriarchate of Jeusalem suddenly remove all the pages relating to Duchess Rachel? That was most entertaining. Did you realise it exposed you as fake as plastic? Here is the google cache to remind you. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:JKrdgjrSEmAJ:www.nasrani-patriarchate.org/eng/nettara/duchess/+duchess+nettara&hl=en Sadly none of the links work any more but they are all still available through google and thousands of other search engines in their cache history.Budo 13:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

On 20:32, 20 November 2005 User:24.22.116.255 wrote:

Sadly, because individuals that had once been part of the Church, and for their own reasons have sought to openly slander this very real, authentic and apostolic Church, its beliefs, practices and people,forums such as this provide those who should have been held in high esteem and failed to honor their vocation, a medium to vent. Caring little or nothing for the thousands of serious believers worldwide.

The Church is real. Its beliefs are authentic and Nettara and its subjects are very real. Persecution takes many forms, sometimes its physical, other times it takes the form of slander. As the vast majority of believers of this Church (A non-profit organization), live in regions that live very simple lives and of simple means, they do not have the tools to defend themselves from all forms of attack. This entry about the Nasrani Church is proof of this.

Take knowones word examine the evidence for yourself and come up with your own conclusion.

Dear 24.22.116.255 do not give up hope so quickly, please provide your evidence here. It seems from your assumption that the information provided on these pages comes from former members of your church indicates that there is a lot of truth about your organisation and exposure of such protected knowledge in what has been posted for all to see. Why is secrecy so important? And what happened to the pages on Duchess Rachel?

There are people here at wiki who speak all kinds of languages, not all the info has to be in English. You can provide source info in any language as long as it is verifiable.

Budo 03:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

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The existence of this article is important to offer objective info on this unbelieveably widespread internet presence to people who would not know any better otherwise. However, since there has not been any report about the existence of the cult from an outside source it makes writing the article very difficult. The following is an outline of the history of this cult which I have gleamed together from internet discussion pages and deduction through personal knowledge. I think it is quite close to the truth if not the truth, but since corroboration is difficult this remains mostly speculation and hence I could not put it into the article.

The Apostolic succession of the Nasrani "Patriarchate of Jerusalem" apparently originates in the catholic schizm at vatican I due in large part to the rejection of the doctrine of Papal infallability. Wherever its principal see really began it was apparently relocated again and again and has undergone frequent name changes. At least this is what can be deduced from their websites. If someone could read Portuguese we might be able to find out if there has been any tertiary source info on the group prior to the beginnings of its publicity in English dating back to about 2003.

If one has the patience to search out its constituent and subsidiary "jurisdictions", you will see a "diversity" of belief systems. Their "communion" seems to be among all the remnants of old catholic sects which have struggled along since the vatican I schizm. In their current manifestation they generally use western rite and even anglican imagery while claiming eastern Nestorian origins. But this is only the most obvious of their contradictions. More subtle to outsiders and far more deviant is that though they hide behind the term "Orthodox Nestorian", Nestorians decidedly adopted "Low" christology, while this group attempts to missionize the authentic Nestorian Church of the East into a "High" christology.

The pre-christian Gnostic Mandaean origins of christian society is something well documented in Jewish traditions. At least several branches of the church under discussion here identify themselves with these Gnostic Watchmen confusing them with people from Nazareth. Whether this is due to sloppy research or the adoption of the beliefs of wealthy free-masonic sponsors one can only deduce circumstantially.

What we can see is that their websites, and most of the other websites associated with them, are very professionally done and have become ever more sophisticated. For someone like me, who does further searches based on names, titles, etc., that appear on a site, a common time-saving practice (and one that lessens the likelihood of transcription errors) is to copy text and paste it into the search engine. These folks have copy-protected their sites, so that one cannot copy and paste from them - something most frequently encountered on proprietary sites; nothing wrong with doing it, but it makes it difficult (time consuming) to further research them. Not that one would find much, since they are referenced nowhere on the web except on their own and related sites.

The increased sophistication extends also to the content of their websites; in an earlier edition, there was more biographical info on HH Catholicos Patriarch Mar Isagelos Michai (Yaza). Now, it reads

After being consecrated on April 14, 1991 as the Catholicos Patriarch of the Nasrani Patriarchate of Jerusalem, by Catholicos +Mar Thomas Dalin (III) and co-consecrators, His Holiness ordered an interim be put into place in order to undergo full seminary training under leading bishops and other educators within the Patriarchate. During the next several years the Nasrani Church of the East Abroad was able to go through much needed radical reforms and restructuring.

As you may deduce from the opening sentence, HH appears to not yet have even been a presbyter when consecrated as Catholicos Patriarch. As I recollect, this and his then-age in 1991 (26) was much more apparent in the earlier version of his bio. Admittedly, elevation to such an office at a young age is not unheard of - Mar Shimun XXIII of blessed memory, Catholicos & Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East, was only 12 when elected to office (it was hereditary in his family) and was advanced through the various orders of the presbyterate and episcopacy to permit his consecration in 1920. However, these days it is more likely to raise eyebrows and reduce credibility. These days group pretends that they are all successors within the one family of Desposynoi (http://www.nasrani-patriarchate.org/eng/nettara/duchess/photo_gallery.php).

This Church is well beyond the realm of what are sometimes termed Non-canonical Churches or Churches of Irregular Status, styling that is ordinarily applied on the basis of a Church neither being recognized as autocephalous or autonomous by competent Orthodox authority nor under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch. The common factor to Churches ordinarily described as non-canonical is that they are essentially mainstream denominations (although they span a continuum that runs the gamut from Old Believers through Old Calendarists to ROCOR and Macedonian Orthodox) and they espouse defined beliefs that are consistent with historical Orthodoxy, despite occasional differences in interpretation. But it seems these folks don't even meet that description.

They have neither any affiliation with or relationship to any of the miaphysite Oriental Orthodox Churches nor to the "Nestorian" Ancient (Assyrian) Church of the East , nor the Catholicosate of the East (Malankara Orthodox Church), nor the Ex-Nestorian Chaldean Catholic Church, despite claims of apostolic succession from the Assyrians. The absence of any connection between it and those Churches is readily verifiable by checking their-ᠷebsites.

At best it is a Vagante Church, albeit considerably more elaborate than most such. While vagante bishops were historically a Catholic-oriented phenomenon, after vatican I (particularly late 1800s and early 1900s), the East and the Orient beckoned and there was a rush, led by folks like Father (later "Bishop", then "Patriarch") Joseph Renee Vilatte, to seek episcopal orders through disaffected actual hierarchs (and a few self-styled hierarchs) from those traditions. This, combined with some renegade Easterners on these shores, notably Abdullah Aftimios Ofiesh (of the Syrian Orthodox) and Antoine Joseph Aneed (of the Melkite Catholics), assured that the East could and would have its own vagante episcopi.

Whether it was the Eastern/Oriental mystery, mysticism, ceremony, titles, vesture, or what, that brought about this interest, we'll never know. On the other side, I suspect that actually being given recognition as important by someone and the opportunity to export their Churches to the West played parts in the willingness of some consecrating hierarchs to lay hands on those who went East seeking episcopal ordination.

The site references a Portuguese-Indian Rite. In truth, the influence of the Latin Catholic Portuguese missioners on the various Indian Rites (Malabarese and Malankarese), which invariably resulted in the introduction of latinizations, were hostilely received and I know of no instance in which it was undertaken to create a Rite that would perpetuate these in a named liturgical form. They also describe relocation to Portugal and the creation of the Iberian Orthodox Church, at which point they make reference to continuing correspondence with Mar Simon XXIII, whose legitimate successor and the current Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church is Mar Dinkus IV.-᠔his is a tactic often encountered among vagante groups - suggesting a relationship between themselves and mainstream canonical Churches. Not infrequently, this concept is bolstered by actually initiating correspondence with valid hierarchs, whose polite responses are then bandied about as signs of tacit recognition. The Netzarim of Clint van Nest have done the same thing in procuring a letter from the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

Their claimed apostolic succession is a bit more arcane than many of the vagante, but one of their subsidiary sites used to reference Vilatte as a principal consecrator (not particularly surprising as it has been said that he never met a man he didn't ordain). According to the page (now revised and no longer containing detailed info on their lines), Mar Dalin III, a prior Patriarch-Catolicos was elevated to the episcopacy on 9/25/1921 by Vilatte; yet, most sources indicate that Vilatte retired in 1920 and performed only a single episcopal function after that date, on 9/21/1921, when he ordained (later Archbishop) Wallace David de Ortega Maxey (another prominent figure on the stage of American "independent" Catholicity and Orthodoxy).

Whether the purported episcopal orders accorded to Vilatte would or would not pass muster in Orthodox or Catholic circles is a matter of ongoing discussion and has been for a century, with multiple differing opinions espoused. Thus, at least at some level, the potential exists for these folks to have some measure of apostolic succession - depends on who is voting and their criteria for same, as we've discussed here previously.

Like the Church of Antioch-Malabar Rite (which may be connected), this entity, which at the time of writing called itself the Patriarchate of Jerusalem (but has also called itself the Patriarch of India) has essentially tried to wrap itself in traditions that aren't its own, whether because those who adhere to it actually believe that they are fulfilling a genuine spiritual purpose or are deliberatly setting out to mislead folks, we'll likely never know. None of the entities with which they are in communion are mainstream Catholic or Orthodox Churches. On one of their sites, there are (or used to be, I couldn't find it last night on a quick scan of the site) photos of the Pope, the Patriarchs of both the Ancient Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, as well as Catholicos-Patriarch Michai, clearly suggesting ties that aren't there. On the pages listing "their churches" in various nations, there are several countries for which the listings are of parishes of the Assyrian Church. These suggestions, of ties that aren't there, I take as a bad sign with regard to their intentions.

I mentioned its "diversity" of belief systems above. Their very "western" looking Oblate order which they have, that purportedly follows the "Benedictine-Franciscan" tradition (a mix that I haven't encountered previously) and which is focused on devotion to the Infant of Prague(!)-᠌ists of their US affiliated churches include various ministries that have a decided protestant evangelical bible air to them, an "Independent Anglican" congregation, and others, including several healing and holistic health ministries, last time I checked. The Patriarch-Catholicos suggests that "all throw off the chains of 'denominationalism'."

All in all, its identifiable history is about a century old. It's headquartered in Tennessee & Kentuky and claims to have jurisdictions or a presence in a dozen nations, principally in North and South America, the Indian sub-continent, Southeast Asia, Israel and Africa. There are a remarkable number of folks bearing patriarchal titles within this body - I suspect more than all the EO/OO/EC/OC Churches combined. There are a Thomasine Historical Society and a Peshitta site associated with them, and there is a regular potpuorri of subsidiary websites. A list of the variety of names under which it functions is on its info services page.

They have hundreds of pages of webspace and it can be daunting to work one's way through.

Budo 10:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I was a member and cleric of this Jurisdiction

I do not know who Budo really is, but he is on the mark when it comes to this church. I do know who Marcus Levine is, and I suppose the other commenter is familiar too. I was from 2002 until November 15th, 2005 a prominant cleric in this church. I have separated from this ever crumbling deck of cards. My church and missionary diocese is now once again independent, but I am in full communion with an Orthodox Jurisdiction. I have recently tried to edit and corrected the article "Church of the East & Abroad", as I was a spiritual counsel (i.e. Abuna-Qasha) to Malakosios Isagelos Chazak Alon Yaza. The current Rabban, H.G. Mar Andreos, was my former archdeacon and Confraternity assistant general director. His title is foolish, as I doubt he has more than a Hi-School diploma. I was training him myself, but that was fast tracked because he who sits upon the throne of Jerusalem and Nettara (LOL!) liked his heterodoxy when it came to Anti-Pauline Judaizing of Gentile believers, his Universalist Mysticism and his fanatical zeal to do the bidding of the catholicoi. Actually, I began to have my doubts about this juisdiction back in the spring of 2005. By August I had found direct evidence that Chazak Yaza was once a member of a New Age online Community: United Communities of Spirit. He clearly states therein that he is the "founder and director of the Universal Bible Society, which is an Interfaith Christian publishing company and world-wide ministry." His stated interests are:"World Scripture (?), Universal Interfaith Movements, Ancient Texts, Gnosis and Christ Consciousness." Now this is beyond the pale of Nazaraean or Christian Orthodoxy, and he described himself as "interfaith" when his Faith is asked. I know all the early and present revised histories of the church and it's various incarnations and aliases.....when I found all these things out I began to ask for answers and received none. So I left....and if you read all their sites now, I am the evil one they are referencing in their defensive rants. Rabban Channer has really gone zealous and is so off tract in his defensiveness it is truly amazing. Budo has discerned the facts well...but some things are wrong. This group is not aligned or related to Spruit's Malabar Rite Cult. Nor is it gnostic or masonic......but it has become sectarian, cultic and deceptive. It revises it's history and sites as the light of Truth exposes them. In my humble, but well learned opinion, like "the Society for the Advancement of Nazaraean Judaism (SANJ)" of the Diploma Mill'd Dr. James Trimm, this group's leadership is Academically challenged, Theologically incoherent and Biblically illiterate. When I sent an Apologetics paper called "Contra Salus Universalus" againts their heresy, they could not rebut it, nor exegete Scripture in defense of their own position. They do not rely upon Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition (Patristic Witness), but are subjective and have an eclectic mish mash of contrary theological positions. I found this out too late, but I am now liberated from this disfunctional spiritual family. I serve only one heir to David's Throne...Maran Y'shua Meshiach....not Chazak Yaza and his mythical Sanhedrin. Anyone who defends this sect is a sect member who has signed the loyalty oath thought up by my former Archdeacon turned Rabban. Like James Trimm's fake Hebrew Roots Version Bible, and the Watchtower's New World Translation, this group is now making it's own Bible Canon and Version too! If you can't find it is Scripture, make your own Version to find it!

So Budo, here is my salute. I have all the htmls and documents saved from every year beginning from 2002 until today...it is quite a hoot. They are guilty of revisionism, borrowing from others histories and adapting the Faith of Jesus of Nazareth and His Nazaraeans into a thing of confused cultism. My Motto is Unity in Dogmatic Essentials, Liberty in Nonessentials and Charity in all things...they borrowed this from me and now have warped it. They no longer sell my translation of the Didache, my Artwork or any of my intellectual property. I am in no way associated with them and warn all to beware of these snake oil salesmen.

Orthodox1 Orthodox1 18:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

What is said in darkness shall be exposed in the light, and what is done in secret shall be shouted from the roof tops! Test everything and hold firm to that which proves to be true.

Nice to meet you Orthodox1, There were several american groups calling themselves St Thomas Christians which seemed to have a similar dodgy catholic background and shared similar beliefs which is why I deduced that there was some connection with Spruit's Malabar Rite Cult but it was their overzealous preaching of Gnosis and being watchmen/guardians which made me connect them with the masons who judging by some friends I know love this sort of thing and are really into practical jokes.

They have really done a good job of slipping their pseudo-facts into all sorts of pages on wikipedia relating to Saint Thomas Christians. The real Nasranis (both Knanaya and non Knanaya) were all Syro-Malabar (though some converted to Syro-Malankar, and many more have adopted western rites) and have never heard of these fakes. Budo 10:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Avinu Shalom Alekhim Budo,

I am afraid this church is fore real, but now on a downward spiral theologically etc. I am now the devil incarnate and I am being written about as a fraud, when I have all the records to prove my points and their aliases and ever changing behavior. If you will go to their Nestorian Forum, which I have left on the article, you can read their attempt at defense. I and my history with them as priest, bishop and abuna qasha is being revised, distorted and run from. It is hysterical to see them now try and deny what is fact, and using un-named individuals to do it. I am finished trying to correct these articles, and it seems that the one about the Nasrani Patriarch and Nettara are no mas. Someone even added a curse upon me and my family, which I deleted (I saved it for further reference though). But their Nettara site has been removed since I corrected their falsehoods. There is no Nettara, and the Dutchess of Nettara is no other than the daughter of the Sar-Patriarch, on whose property in Camden, Tennessee the exiled (?) Nasrani Partiarch lives. The Mishqana is this private property...a long way from Eretz Y'srael, Mesopotmia, India and Myanmar.

All the various websites of this Church (all listed in this article), once including my own (www.aeoc.org), are owned and paid for by this Sar-Patriarch. Now his Daughter and he are royalty. Did you know that the Sar-Patriarch was once Cardinal, but since I said this was Roman Catholic in 2003, they asked me what he should be called...I said Sar was Hebrew for Prince (i.e. Cardinal) or Captain, so why not Sar-Patriarch instead of Cardinal-Patriarch....so they adopted this. I was amazed. Also, the Nasrani Patriarchal Crest was designed by myself and given to the Nasrani Patriarch as a gift....he still uses it, but I am now the devil, strange. Now they use Jewish termonologies to seem more authentic and ancient, like Rabban, Sanhedrin, etc. I have no issue with Judeo-Nazaraean Faith, Practice and Custom...as I live by them, but their perversions have simply stymied me.

There are some true Thomasines in this Church from Kerala, Tamil Nadu and South America.....some are Knanaya Thomasines, those in Brazil, Portugal etc. The Portuguese "Iberian Orthodox Church" did sever it's ties to the Nasrani Patriarch when he was made so in 1991....now I see why. I am now in full communion with a "Western Rite" Orthodox Church jurisdiction, but not a member, and now they are completely shocked at this. Thy dislike you too...very much. It seems you have finally stated that "the king hath no clothes", and it doth make them wroth. Keep it up. You aided in my choice in leaving, as I finally had an outsider see what I was seeing from within. Thank You Budo. College taught me many things, but you gave me the final push to publish the facts and move on. I still am Nazaraean Orthodox (Nazrani) in my Faith, but no longer involved in this dysfunctional mess of a church turned sect.

How do you clean up this article? And why were the other two deleted? They were factual and easily researchable. Oh well. May God's Peace be upon you Budo, whoever you are. In Messiah,

Orthodox1Orthodox1

Bishop of the Nazaraean Orthodox Church: Diocese of the U.S. Pacific Northwest

== Orthodox1 == I need to speak with you please contact me regarding this false church...I need insite prayerfulheart@goowy.com