Talk:Church of Scientology

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News This article has been cited as a source by a media outlet. See the 2004 press source article for details.
  • "Miroljub Labus Scientologist." (July 28, 2004). Nacional. [1].

Contents

[edit] Leadership of Church of Scientology

I would like to know what the leadership structure of the CoS is like. Is it centralized? -Northridge, 11:16AM Central, 18 August 2006.

[edit] Why does this article use the word "church"?

Scientology is a scam, L Ron Hubbard was a con-artist, and scientology is not a religion. Why call it a church?

Subgenius is a scam, "Bob" was a drill bit salesman, and slack is not a religion. See: Church_of_the_Subgenius. We call it a "church" because they have adopted that title. Praise Bob. Ronabop 02:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
It is registered as a Church in the USA and has tax-exempt status there, so technically it's a church. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

It has tax-exempt status, the same as a charitable, non-profit organization (boys and girls clubs), so although similar, not the same as a church.

Scientology is a religion, get over it. You can object to any aspect of the religion you like but you are wasting your time attacking whether it is a religion or whether it is a church. --Justanother 15:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] information on Jesus

not sure where you're getting your information on Jesus, but he never denied his parents or siblings. His brother James and the others may have thought it a little weird to have God's son as a brother... but please show me where denies his family?

His brother James went on to be the head of his followers. Doesn't sound like he had much of a beef with Jesus to me.

Now Jesus did depart from his mother for much of his ministry, which seems natural. I left my family when I went to work full time too.

71.98.197.42 20:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Sean C.

Matthew 12:46-50. He clearly considered the church his true family, and blew off his genetic family. See also John 2:1-5, and the rather interesting Luke 14:26-27. Not really germane to this article, of course, but you seemed curious.Ronabop 07:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last days of LRH

I believe that L Ron Hubbard spent his last days on a ranch near San Luis Obispo, California, between Los Angeles and San Francisco, rather than at the ranch near Hemet.

Please change the article, then. Wikipedia's motto is be bold when updating articles.  :)

NO. When your belief is published by a refutable source or when you yourself post a refutable source of that information or when anyone else cites a source of information that states what your belief states, then and only then should such an information become part of this article. It might well be included in several adjacent Wiki articles as well. L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, for example. But untill an information is a published information (and sources with higher reputation for fact count higher) it is a rumor and should not be included in this article. Terryeo 21:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] membership statistics removal

I've removed that membership statistics chart for two reasons: First, the reference to "Scientology Inc." is not NPOV. However accurate that may be, it implies a strong bias towards a point of view that is not widely used by the general public at large, not even among Scientology's most dedicated critics. Second, the fancy numbers in the chart do project a trend of declining membership, but the chart really doesn't mean anything other than to provide a fancy-looking special effect, to emphasize the statement "Scientology's membership is shrinking." This is already demonstrated in the article text itself. The numbers are confusing, and rather than simplifying the text, they complicate it. --Modemac 11:49, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Its cool that the article doesn't have membership statistics, or any statistics. But it is also pretty obvious that an article on The Catholic Church in France is going to link to the Vatican in some way. Its primary source. The Church of Scientology is a POV, you might say. Wikipolicy says Cite sources. Large, well published things have lots of published information. Lesser popular things, lesser information has been published. Backroom sweat shops don't publish.Terryeo 16:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dangerous cult

You should be very prudent before asserting things such as: "By contrast, the governments of Germany, France and Belgium officially regard the Church of Scientology as a dangerous cult."

More appropriately, a parliamentary report listed the Church of Scientology as a sect. Parliamentary reports do not define the official position of the French government.


Just so you know, in French, the word "secte" has the same connotative and denotative meanings as the English word "cult"--a group like "Heaven's Gate" or the Jim Jones followers--while "culte" just refers to different denominations in mainstream religion, like Methodist or Anglican (like the English word "sect." It is the cause of much confusion among freshman French language students.130.160.122.200 14:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


Courts have convicted some regional branches of Scientology as well as some Scientology executives for various offenses. Yet, that neither constitutes official condamnation of the Church of Scientology in general. David.Monniaux 00:09, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't know about the situation in France, but the statement is true as far as Germany goes. Scientologists are barred from holding public office there, due to the classification as a dangerous cult. Mkweise 01:35, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Only in one province, Bavaria, is there a prohibition against Scientologists holding office. Vivaldi 08:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. Following an important cold war decision by the Conseil d'État, the political opinions of a candidate may not be the sole motive for barring them from the French Civil Service. I suspect they'd do the same with religion. Do you have a pointer for this situation in Germany, preferably to a legal text? I fear that merely quoting a press article is insufficient, journalist often bullshit a lot when it comes to legal proceedings. David.Monniaux 07:09, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
German authorities deny Scientology the status of church, it is suspected to be a criminal organisation. See the annual reports of the Office for Protection of the Constitution (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz/BfV): 2004, PDF, German, page 275 - "Scientology-Organisation (SO)" and 2003, PDF, English, page 248 - "The Scientology Organisation (SO)". Find information on German intelligence services here. --Tickle me 15:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but isn't that old stuff from a couple of years ago? Hasn't the Church of Scientology has been recognized by the German government as a bona fide religion today? It was like that, I know, almost every religion was banned including Scientology. [2] . Terryeo 21:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new words and terms

Someone please mention the heavy invention of new words and terms by the book dianetics and scientology in general. It rivals "bridge" for the number of technical terms.

You're after Scientology_beliefs_and_practices#Scientology_language_and_terms_.28Scientologese.29 :-) - David Gerard 17:30, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I want to mention again. In an introductory article for public assimilation, there is little need for a vast amount of Scientology jargon. The ideas expressed by particular terms, are, after all, only short ways of pointing to an idea that can be spelled out with a few more words. Terryeo 23:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] religion?

Wow, there are a lot of scientologist trolls around here making it seem like the article is biased. Having visited a COS in Coral Gables, FL, I must contend that it is NOT a religion. I spent a long time speaking with several people there, and while it has religious overtones, it is structured like a pyramid scheme. Religions are theologically consistent, while scientology plays more as a position paper, glossing over theological inconsistencies (their belief in reincarnation, for example, is at odds with their all-encompassing attitude and several other beliefs they hold). Sects are offshoots of consistent religions. Scientology is neither. Amicuspublilius 01:27, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Allow me to point you toward a Catholic's opinion who holds a Ph.D. in religion, is often called on by governments, etc. to testify about religion. Warning, this is in .PFD format.Dr. Frank K. Flinn's full opinion

Then, if you don't want just one Doctor of Divinity's opinion whether Scientology is a religion or not, you might look at this link which presents several highly qualified such person's opinions about Scientology, usually they mention its profit motives as well: [3]. However, your opinion is of course yours no matter what any high-falutin' doctor says, huh?  :) Terryeo 21:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Scientology is a religion. It holds the belief that man is a spiritual being who has an intimate connection with a creator and life at large. Sclientology, as a religion, also practices spiritual counseling called auditing which is designed to bring parishinors to a higher state of communication with life.

(Note that both the sites linked above belong to the Church of Scientology.) In some countries, the government won't or can't declare if something a religion or not. In the US, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment seems to prohibit that. I believe the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms does that as well. On the practical side, governments can decide which groups meet qualifications for tax and charitable status as well as performing functions like marriages (which are usually just a rubber stamp of the civil paperwork). Isn't the question rather a moot point, especially when CoS itself flips between religious dessert topping and secular floor wax for the same courses, purification and even auditing to suit the local laws that apply at that moment? For many critics, it's CoS's behaviour not their beliefs that are the real problem. AndroidCat 04:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, its an "applied religious philiosophy" based on the idea that a person can know things. How simple can secular floor wax be, huh? lol. Terryeo 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anonymous IP trying to add unknown names to Scientology member list

The last time this happened, about two months ago, a European newspaper just "happened" to use Wikipedia as a source to "prove" some Easter European official was part of Scientology. I don't want to see Wikipedia used for smear campaigns like this; therefore, if this starts to happen again, I'm going to temporarily protect the page. --Modemac 09:15, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you Modemac, while there are many high profile people that could be validly added, this was really left field. Thanks for picking up on it. -- Nuview 14:45, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It could be a problem but why try to keep such a list? Why not use the official scientology site which has the agreement of the members it lists. Travolta and others have posted their opinions and it prevents this kind of trouble altogether, especially as wiki grows larger. Here's the official COS celebraties and opinions link: [4] Terryeo 17:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stray text

The following text looks like it's probably Polish or some other slavic language that uses the roman alphabet. I'm removing it from the page. If somebody can translate it and it's verifiable, we can put it back on the main page in English translation.

"Gospodin Vuk Marusic iz odeljenja III4 Gimnazije u Zajecaru je jasno pokazao svoje pretenzije i interesovanja za Jehove svedoke, tako da je izazvan mnogim kako on kaze "besmislicama" o sekti resio da kao odgovor uzme jednu osobu kao zrtvu... tako se sektaske trupe u gradu Zajecaru sire enormnom merom..."

--[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Oh, I see that it was part of a larger vandalism. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reincarnations and Sea Org

there are, however, no reports yet of reincarnated Scientologists rejoining the Sea Org.

While amusing, this seems like a rather POV jab at Scientology. -- Khym Chanur 05:44, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)

What's more, those who died in the early days of the Sea Org would just now be coming of age - assuming they reincarnated immediately after death. Mkweise 18:49, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It can be interpreted as a jab at Scientology, yes, but it can also be a valid question: Does Scientology in fact believe that any of the people who signed contracts with the Church of Scientology promising to come back and take up the same job after they reincarnate have, in fact, done so? If they do, who, and what is their evidence? If not, how do they explain the absence? (While Mkweise's point about the timing is a good one, I don't know if that's their explanation for the absence, or if in fact they do have Sea Org members who are considered to be reincarnations of previous signers?) -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:40, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There have been Sea Org members who claim to be past life Sea Org. However, there are no official releases regarding them. Marbahlarbs 16:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
C'mon people get real. Suppose for a flashing instant it was all real, that people drop a body, pick up another body and with the new identity, get active in Sea Org again. If the Church of Scientology claimed such a thing had happened, do you think anyone could keep a straight face while reading it? lol. Do you think such a person would come forth and announce himself? Does the phrase, "prove it !" come to mind? lol Terryeo 21:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion outside united states?

The article seems to suggest, but I don't think explicitly states that the CoS is not recognized as a religion by any government other than that of the United States. Is that so? I am specifically interested in the Canadian interpretation.

Here is an official Scn Site which tells how many countries, somewhere in there I saw an actual list of countries but I don't recall whether Canada was included in the official list: [5] Terryeo 21:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what their legal status, but they have been convicted in at least two cases; one involving the largest ever libel award in Canadian history and in the other they became the only Canadian religious organisation to be convicted for breaching the public trust. Check out these wiki articles: Scientology and the legal system, R. v. Church of Scientology of Toronto, andHill v. Church of Scientology of Toronto. --Csnewton 23:08, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
that was amusing, wasn't it? LOL. they got on the steps of the city hall or something and did a parody thing. lol. Terryeo 23:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Amusing?? Umm, no. The serious convictions for criminal breach of the public trust were the result of operating a spy ring exactly as in Operation Snow White, and the Canadian Supreme Court, in Hill v. Church of Scientology, used phrases like "the very real and persistent malice of Scientology", "recklessly high-handed, supremely arrogant and contumacious", "there was such insidious, pernicious and persistent malice that the award for punitive damages cannot be said to be excessive" to descibe what you call "a parody thing". AndroidCat 15:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, Terryeo, I think you need to find out who's supplying you with bad information. When Scientology went into court as a result of having staged a press conference on the steps of a Toronto courthouse and disseminated damaging statements that were untrue and without foundation and which damaged the reputation of an individual, they argued that the law of the land was outdated and should be changed to a different standard under which what they did would not be might not have been found illegal. At no point did they mention or suggest or intimate that their false and unfounded accusations against Casey Hill and the whole press conference at which they disseminated their lies was "a parody thing". -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
In Canada, CoS's application for charity status was denied in 1999, and it is not tax-exempt. I don't think that there is any offical "recognition as a religion" that the government of Canada does or even can do under the Charter. (Note that, in theory, the US government is prevented by the 1st Amendment from declaring something a religon or not. Claims that the US government "recognizes" a religion should be carefully examined to see what is really being said.) AndroidCat 15:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, charity status was also denied in 1999 (England and Wales), but CoS operates in the UK as an Australian-incorporated charity under a reciprocal agreement. AndroidCat 15:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientology dogma?

I wonder why no one has written in the article about the "church"'s dogma, as is the case in Mormonism, Unitarianism, etc. Anyone know enough to pick up on this omission? Sfahey 1 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)

The thing you run into almost from the top is that Mormonism, and even Christianity are systems of belief. So yeah, you got dogma. Scientology had knowledge, it doesn't encourage its parishoners to believe anything. In fact, it strongly encrouages every parishoner to make their own, individual decisions about what is true for them and not to rely on anything else, including church dogma, statements, and so on. Terryeo 21:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
See Scientology beliefs and practices and, for more detail, Category:Scientology beliefs and practices. -Willmcw July 1, 2005 06:07 (UTC)
Unitarianism doesn't have a 'set in stone' dogma. Mormonism has a dogma John Smith discovered some tablets I believe and from them he wrote his own book on how a Mormon is supposed to act. With Scientology, you have to earn the right to know what it is by earning levels. -Barthalamule May 8, 2006 3:45 (UTC)

[edit] The Serious Things

OK, we know from Tom Cruise what Scientology thinks of psychology/psychiatry and regarding humans as physical/animal beings. So where does Scientology stand on big issues like abortion and euthenasia? Tom S.

You do your own thing and I'll do my own thing. Terryeo 04:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
depends on how much money you have :)

[edit] New changes in opening paragraphs explained

I understand that the opening paragraphs in the article are very important and should not be changed on a whim, but there was need in this case. The following is an explanation of the changes and the reasons for the changes:

  1. 1) I adjusted the last sentence of paragraph #1 because it was confusing, starting with "Scientology has expanded worldwide" -- which seems to imply (to me) that the organization has been expanding in each country that it has been introduced, which is certainly not true. In recent times Scientology has been declining in some countries and almost completely removed from others.
  1. 2) I rewrote paragraph two because it had incorrect statements of fact.

a) The original church established in Camden, NJ was never incorporated.

b) The first Scientology organization was the secular Hubbard Assoc. of Scientologists established in 1952.

c) The first incorporated church was in Calif. in 1954.

d) The legal battle over the tax-exempt status of the Church of Scientology began in 1967 and ended in 1993.

e) I removed the word "religious" from the phrase "religious nonprofit organization". For one thing, the IRS is not in charge of determining if an organization is a religion -- their only responsibility is to determine the tax-exempt status of an organization. If we are to accept that the 1993 tax agreement is an endorsement of Scientology as a "religious" organization, then we must also accept that the Leukemia Foundation, American Medical Association, and the Red Cross are religious organizations -- a logical absurdity.

The tax agreement is officially a confidential agreement between the IRS and the Church of Scientology - so it's absurd to conclude that the agreement makes any claims as the "religious" nature of the church, since nobody here has an "official" copy of the text.

The tax agreement that was leaked to the Wall Street Journal and reportedly is a copy of the "secret agreement" does not indicate in any place that the IRS has made any determination of fact that the Church of Scientology is a "religion" -- the only thing it says is that it meets the requirements of a tax-exempt organization, which include charity groups, religious groups, and groups dedicated to research. The IRS does not ever specify which type of group they determined CoS to be -- only that they now met the requirements of a tax-exempt group.

I forgot to sign this when I wrote it: -- Vivaldi 06:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


Those changes were excellent. Great research! --Agiantman 00:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Impressive ! Terryeo 21:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Changes by Marbahlarbs

I broke the Church vs. Business section in two. Added the World View of Scientology. Hopefully they will present themselves as two seperate issues. Moved the Israeli social movement against Scn to the World View section. Marbahlarbs 10:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hurricane Katrina

The Volunteer Mission section lists 9/11, the Southeast Asian tsunami and 7/7/05 London bombings. I'm wondering if they're helping New Orleans in Katrina's aftermath.--HistoricalPisces 17:40, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a team of Volunteer Ministers in New Orleans, and more on the way. My mom works for FEMA, and she saw them this week. Marbahlarbs 18:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gold base details

I cut the following from the bit on Gold Base on the grounds that it seemed unfocused, overlong, and was not integrated into the article. There may be some info here worth preserving, though I don't think that building-by-building physical description is appropriate to this article. BTfromLA 17:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Other notable buildings in Gold Base include:

  • Upper Villas - where David Miscaviage and other high level Scientologists and celebrities stay
  • "BonnieView" - the home for L. Ron Hubbard in case he returns in his next life.
  • Staff berthing - 4 buildings where staff live
  • CMO Int - Commodore's Messengers Organization International. CMO Int has the function of establishing and forcing to run all management units under Church of Scientology International (CSI)'s control.
  • OGH buildings - Old Gilman House. Probably used for auditing or solo auditing.
  • Del Sol - auditing rooms for staff
  • Qual Gold - Headquarter for Qual Sec, in charge of "quality control".

Gold Base also has recreational facilities, including a running track, basketball, volleyball, and soccer facilities, an exercise building, a waterslide, a small lake with a training ship (the "Laissez-Faire"), two beaches, and a golf course.

Sucker is 500 acres. Big place. Terryeo 16:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Series Template

Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview 11:25, 10 January 2006 (PST)

Reference please? Article series doesn't appear to state that an series template must be a sequential series. "For example, the article Israeli-Palestinian conflict could contain a table that provides links to all the major issues surrounding that subject." AndroidCat 00:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_article_series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Navigational_templates#Religion
There are both timeline-specific series, and series based a unifying theme. Ronabop 00:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I want to point out that it would be theoretically possible to develop a historical template. Dianetics and then Scientology did develop, after all, in a sequential fashion. In a few instances several sub-organizations of it sprang up at the same time, but most of it is linear because, after all, it was all created by one man. Terryeo 04:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but that wouldn't be much use in making sense of the purposefully confusing current organization of Scientology, would it? Perhaps we need Hubbard's seven division org chart? AndroidCat 06:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I understand what you said. However the things Hubbard wrote say things other than "I am creating a purposefully confusiing organization ..." In fact, his 7 division org board write ups define why 7 divisions, what the purpose and use of such an organization is, its advantages, etc. etc. However, it is a less easy read than say, Battlefield Earth. Terryeo 23:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objective

It is gratifying to observe this article return to a state of reasonable objectivity. I will admit that I had begun to dispair of Wikipedia's ability to display authorial integrity on many subjects, but thankfully it appears that there is some cause for hope.

Petrus4 03:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-group cleanup

I've added proper main article links to several of the sub-groups. I've also moved most external links and some content from the sub-group sections to the main articles. In the end, I'd like the sections for the sub-groups to be mere summaries, based on the main article introductions. I don't think we should have external links in a summary section for a sub-group of Scientology when the sub-group has a main article. --Davidstrauss 18:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of links, there are already more than enough critical links throughout this article. As I have mentioned in other edits – there needs to be some objective balance.--Nuview 21:25, 23 April 2006 (PST)

Using xxxx.net as a reference is not suitable. This website is a personally owned site and the information on it is not credible and cannot be used as a reliable source. There is no evidence on the page that authenticates the “emails.” --Nuview 10:20, 5 May 2006 (PST)

I don't see any references to xxxx.net on the page. AndroidCat 17:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor lead

This article's lead section needs a serious expansion. As of right now, all it consists of is one sentence that states the church was founded by L. Ron Hubbard in 1953. --tomf688 (talk) 23:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obleron conflict

I'm having a hard time believing that Obleron just happened to add yet another link to the Michel Snoeck site the day after that site was revised by Michel Snoeck to incorporate new information that I provided Obleron last week. Granted that it's an external link and not a reference, but the whole idea of allowing editors to add links to their own personal appendix material for Wiki pages has to be way over some line. Sure, I'd love to make my own commentary links on pages so I can keep my POV and text just the way I like it and outside the meddling of other ruthless editors and Wiki rules, but I can see where that would lead.

I'm not accusing Obleron of bad faith (overenthusiasm for the truth perhaps), and I certainly don't object to the information or its sources (why would I? :), but I'd be happier if it was moved to a new or existing Wiki page. AndroidCat 11:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It's Olberon, not Obleron. If an external link or a reference link is proven to be valid it can be used. If it is invalid it should be proven to be so with proper arguments. That is not with some association about who is who, and who is not who. Therefore there is no Obleron conflict and there is no Olberon conflict. --Olberon 07:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
But Giant Floating Head, er, Olberon, if that were all that there was to it, why would you object to other personal web sites? Why not just prove them invalid with proper arguments? AndroidCat 02:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
If you make the accusation, then state and substantiate your case. --Olberon 12:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts of 'Vandalism', user Antaeus Feldspar, Wikipediatrix and sockpuppets (Hubbard as SF(?) writer)

It used to say on the various Scientology related pages on Wiki that L. Ron Hubbard was a 'Science Fiction writer'. Documentation however confirms that no more than about 25% of his fiction legacy could be considered Science Fiction. Someone put a statistic together about it using the Bibliography of William Widder here. One should though consider that for example the decalogy 'Mission Earth' which consists of 10 large volumes are counted as 10 stories, whereas various of his other fiction could be reasonable short stories. There exist however also some controversy about the actual authorship of the 'Mission Earth' series and even 'Battlefield Earth'. Robert Vaughn Young has claimed in affidavits that he was involved rewriting/writing it. It is confirmed that L. Ron Hubbard has not solely written Science fiction stories, there exist Detective, Western, Romance, Fantasy etc., therefore solely addressing him as a Science Fiction writer would be inappropriate. Some argue that he was mostly known for his Science Fiction, and this is why they think that addressing him as a 'Science Fiction' writer would be correct. They are 2 issues here. This SF label is mostly due to 'Battlefield Earth' and the 'Mission Earth' as it seems, both which received a considerable amount of media coverage. Also these were published at the end of his carreer, and at a time that L. Ron Hubbard had gone into total seclusion. Another point is that L. Ron Hubbard often is associated with Scientology as being Science Fiction, which is just an opinion.

It should also be noted that the 'Fiction of L. Ron Hubbard' bibliography compiled by William Widder (published 1994) only covers the fiction legacy of L. Ron Hubbard, when in fact he has also written and published a variety of non-fiction material as early as the '30's, all prior to Scientology. Various has been published in magazines such as 'The Pilot'. So even addressing him as a 'Fiction writer' would be inaccurate.

It was basically I that changed these entries and simply removed the focusing on 'Science Fiction'. The history of the editing on the various Scientology related Wiki articles will reveal that I had to battle for it. For a few weeks now it appeared stable, and then various start to change to 'Science Fiction' again. Why?

From 'church of Scientology' article edit history:

An attempt to add the word 'Science':

22:12, 1 June 2006 66.65.192.160
06:01, 5 June 2006 Olberon m (remove vandalism by user 66.65.192.160)

Another attempt by Antaeus Feldspar, he does not indicate that he adds the word 'Science':

15:40, 6 June 2006 Antaeus Feldspar (revised description; "late" is not needed for everyone who is no longer alive)
12:13, 8 June 2006 Olberon (Removed Vandalism by user Antaeus Feldspar, added was the word 'science' foregoing 'fiction writer. This claim defies Widder's bibiliography.)

(I wrote in error user Vivaldi, corrected)

Wikipediatrix reverts with a generality:

12:16, 8 June 2006 Wikipediatrix (rv Olberon's latest act of needless disruption over minutia.)
12:19, 8 June 2006 Olberon (rv One more attempt to Vandalism and I will file a complaint as such, it's up to you. If you have an argument you forward it.)

Only 5 minutes later we see another revert with no explanation what is being done (adding the word 'Science'):

12:24, 8 June 2006 195.26.43.146

I don't think this ever will be 'safe'! Sock puppets if needed will be used to introduce the word 'Science' again after a while. Why? Simply because some want to make the association 'Scientology' and 'Science Fiction'. If one is unable to stop this kind of Vandalism (and this is what it factually is) I don't think that Wikipedia will have a future. At any time someone (either a fool or a scholar) can jump in and edit and attempt to change anything they want. --Olberon 09:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "American pulp fiction[1][2] author L. Ron Hubbard"

Why is being focused on his fiction legacy? (i.e. 'pulp fiction' legacy) It is wel documented that he wrote more non-fiction than fiction. This even as early as the 30's in a variety of magazines.

To say "American author [1][2]L. Ron Hubbard" is neutral. To say "American pulp fiction[1][2] author L. Ron Hubbard" is not neutral and in fact gives the impression that Scientology is just something invented by some person who wrote 'pulp fiction' which adds a degrading flavour to the subject. The reader of the article is to decide about these things. Wiki is supposed to just provide actual information which bear relevance to the article and that in a neutral way. It is not neutral to focus on only some part of his writings. --Olberon 06:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Scientology is just something invented by some person who wrote 'pulp fiction'" is in fact a POV held by many people on the subject; see, for instance, Hayakawa's famous review "From Science-fiction to Fiction-science". To call Hubbard a non-fiction author is problematic as actual non-fiction means sticking to the facts, and it's documented that Hubbard often chose not to. Even if we were able to trust that Hubbard was trying, in any given piece, to stick to the facts, there is the fact that his research was notably slipshod (see, for instance, his declarations about how Western dime novels are a treasure trove of usable fact. For a fiction author, they probably were; for a non-fiction author to declare them so is to express unbelievable naïvete.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Define neutral! Fiction writer is only partly true. Pulp fiction writer is only partly true. Nonfiction writer is only partly true. Writer or author without specification is true on — founding a religionall counts. What problem do you have with that?
Your comment:
13:32, 13 June 2006 Antaeus Feldspar (we should be neutral and accurate. Hubbard was an author of pulp fiction and proud of it.)
is not relevant. You are not being neutral!!! --Olberon 14:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Olberon, you changed the Scientology and Church of Scientology article and summarized your edits with as "per discussion #22", while I don't see any consensus here... About your statement "gives the impression that Scientology is just something invented by some person who wrote pulp fiction": well, that is exactly what Hubbard was when he invented Dianetics and Scientology, a pulp-fiction writer, and it is my opinion that it's significant enough to mention it, and your opinion that this adds a "degrading flavour" to the subject actually confirm that this particular fact is important. What is not important is your perception of this fact, that means you are trying to taint the article with your personal opinion. After being a pulp fiction writer, Hubbard went on to become the founder of the Scientology religion, mostly dedicated to write scriptures for his religion. Raymond Hill 21:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It is obvious. Feldspar's statement, Scientology is just something invented by some person who wrote 'pulp fiction'" is in fact a POV held ... exactly reflects the attitude of a number of editors. So, time after time, those editors edit the article to present their, personal point of view. The actual facts include that Hubbard authored science fiction. But, the article's purpose is to present information to the reader about the Church of Scientology, today's Church of Scientology. When editors attempt to make small of Scientology, editors include "created in 1953" (today's church was not created in 1953). And "Science fiction author.." etc. But these dispersive presentations are not the gist of Scientology, hello !? Can we get an article which states what it is instead of an article that reeks and smells of POV? Terryeo 04:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

How is this even an arguement? What non-fiction writings are you talking about? He wrote fiction and he wrote Scientology books. It seems pretty straightforward. If LRH were to have died before creating Scientology he would have been known as a fiction writer, right? Robert A. Heinlein wrote non-fiction as well, but if you were to ask me what he did, I would say he wrote sceince fiction. Similarly, if you asked me what LRH did, I'd say he invented scientology. If you asked me what he did before that, I'd say he wrote pulp fiction or I might say he wrote science fiction. It may not look good, but NPOV doesn't mean coverring things up because they don't look good. It means that reasonable arguments, which are verifiable, against the facts are aired. It probably sounds crazy to a lot of people that christianity believes a guy died, was put in a tomb, stayed there for three days, then went to face his archnemisis in the bowls of the earth, and then rose up to the heavens to be redeemed for the sins of the world, which he had miraculously taken from every human being. But, thats what christians believe. Even though it sounds crazy, it remains in wikipedia because it is verifiable and it has relevence to the christian faith.

By the way, wikipedia says that Jesus was a carpenter before he was the savior of mankind(according to christians). Should we take that out too? -- Bantab 01:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure, but couldn't identifying L. Ron as a pulp fiction writer fall under "terms that are technically accurate but carry an implied viewpoint"? It seems to me it would. Not only that, but his being a pulp fiction writer has nothing to do with the CoS. I think just author should be used, since there's no real reason to label him as a pulp fiction author (in this article).

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scientology Public Relations

I'd appreciate it if Scientologist wikipedians would explain to TheFarix and Orsini that the page "Scientology Public Relations" is an obvious attack on Scientology by the vandal Lord Xenu.

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scientology Public Relations for the discussion. These users have both falsely accused me of making personal attacks when I pointed out that this user is a vandal. Thanks, Republitarian 18:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Republitarian, "vandalism" on Wikipedia means edits which make their bad-faith nature inarguable. "L. RON HUBBARD WAS A GAYBOY" is vandalism. An article about some aspect of Scientology -- even if incoherent, even if unflattering to Scientology -- is not vandalism.
In short, TheFarix and Orsini were correct; you are incorrect and you are compounding your own error by trying to summon "Scientologist wikipedians" only to the AfD discussion to push your erroneous agenda. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, rallying people who agree with you is "meatpuppeting" and heavily discouraged. --Davidstrauss 17:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who's at the top?

I want to know more about the inner circle at the top of the CoS. Does the evidence suggest they're firm believers, or is there evidence that they know the whole thing is a scam? People pour money into the CoS. Where does that money go? Who's getting rich? Who's the CEO? Did these people rise up through the ranks (which would be evidence that they're believers) or did they skip the typical initiation phase?

[edit] Oxford Capacity Analysis?

I don't see what the deal is - the test is clearly rigged and has no relation to Oxford. What is the problem citing that here? We cite the same information on the OCA's entry in wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienoSitter (talk • contribs).

[edit] Missing the command structure

We are missing a big thing here - the command structure; Watchdog Committee, CMO, Int Mgmt, FOLO, a ton of stuff. I was editing Mary Sue's article and wanted to link to CMO, which I did find after a false start. I will do something here as I can but if someone else wants to start, please do.--Justanother 22:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Some kind of org chart with a lot of boxes and arrows would probably be needed. :) AndroidCat 22:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a ton of stuff packed up; it would be great if I had that glossy "Command Channels of Scientology" publication. --Justanother 05:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

Is it just me, or does this article show a bias against Scientology? I'm a Catholic, and if I read a similarly non-objectively-stated piece on my religion, I'd be dismayed.

pointlessforest 05:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you haven't given any specific examples of what needs changing, I'm not sure what you expect anyone else to say or do. wikipediatrix 14:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Trust me, we are dismayed. --Justanother 17:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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