Talk:Christian mythology

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[edit] Original Discussion

'See talk:Christian Mythology for earlier debate

Oh, come on. This is basically the same article from three hours ago, which started all the fuss.

No, wait! It's not! It has no mention of sacred texts! It doesn't interfere with anyone's beliefs! Who believes in Santa Claus? In Narnia? In King Arthur?

If anyone objects to the Saints, or to the Vudon, or to anything else, please remove THAT PART or tell us here what is objectionable.

I REALLY don't want to label anything that Christians believe to be a sacred and divine truth as mythology. Surely a devil represented with a red suit and horns doesn't qualify, does it?

I specifically did NOT link to Bible stories, either!

-- Cayzle

We have an article on Norse Mythology despite Neopaganists believing in it. I don't think it's really a neutral point of view if we classify one group's sacred and divine truth as mythology but not another group's.
-- 69.231.222.235 03:18, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


168.184.220.6 14:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC) I think that this is strange. I am very confused. At least if I am to read this to the and grasp this with the fullest of my knowledge, someone please explain this to me and other people so that they do not become confused, so as to place this under the area of "religious discrimination" or think that people are downing Christianity. This is definitely not an attack, but the above stated is highly advised.

I'm staying out of it, this time. Enjoy. Ed Poor

hee hee! maybe we should let it rest for a few days and let things cool off. -- Cayzle

Can I ask what Rudolph, Frosty and the Easter Bunny have to do with Christianity? Santa Clause I can see, the Little Drummer Boy I can see... I just don't get it. -Wesley

I guess Rudolph and Frosty were added onto a Christian holiday, but I don't know if that makes them Christian either, Wesley. The Easter Bunny is most decidedly *not* Christian, except by adoption. It's a very old fertility symbol going back to Egypt as well as the Celts, who held Samhain at the same time of the year as Easter. Probably they came from that, but I don't know. --Dmerrill

If one considers for inclusion as "Christian Mythology" a range of stories with Christian themes and with close ties to Christian allusion or tradition, then in addition to stories such as Narnia, one can interpret the Rudolph story (with its "Love your neighbor as yourself" theme of tolerance and brotherly love, not to mention its fantastical elements (talking and flying animals, not to mention its link to the Santa Claus / St. Nicholas tradition) as both mythic and Christian, I think. Similarly, Dr. Seuss's Grinch story is a (newly invented) Christian myth on the same order, in my opinion. -- Cayzle

So is "A Christmas Carol", but even more so. --Paul Drye

Boy, that minor edit is going to trigger a whole discussion again.

I, too, was puzzled by the bizarre inclusion of kids stories into Christian mythology. I don't know anyone who would consider Rudolph to be a Christian myth. I think it fails on both counts - it's neither Christian nor myth.

One question we have to ask is whether a myth is different from a story. If not then pretty much anything could be included here, and we have no need to distinguish Christian myth from Christian fiction. However I would want to propose that anything that is known, and always was intended, as a work of pure fiction (Narnia, Rudolph) is not a myth. Interestingly mythology was one of C. S. Lewis' areas of study. Maybe someone could do some research on what he thought about this subject. I believe there is something in the introduction of 'Till We Have Faces' about it. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have considered Narnia to be a myth.

The other question is what makes a myth a Christian myth. I would contend that it must in some way concern the central elements of Christianity. Just because the message of a story is 'be nice to people', that doesn't make it Christian. Christianity agrees with the message, but so do lots of other beliefs. Once again Rudolph doesn't make the grade. Shakespeare's Richard III for example (which could conceivably pass the first test - it's certainly been taken to be a historical account on occasions) has messages like "Don't start civil wars for your personal gain" which Christianity would agree with, but it's not a Christian Myth.

In fact, if you go any look at our own definition in mythology we find that modern stories of pure fiction are pretty much excluded. And Rudolph does not have 'deep explanatory or symbolic meaning'.

DJ Clayworth 14:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The working definition would appear to be that Christian mythology includes:
  • a legend involving saints or Biblical figures;
  • legends of ecclesiastical origin or that involve relics, crusades, and other actions by Christian churches; and
  • stories that have become attached to Christian holidays.
This last category seems to be how Rudolph and the Easter Bunny come in.
I doubt that things like Frosty the Snowman constitute mythology, myself; they're too recent and too obviously commercial in origin. On the other hand, there is a rich vein of wonderlore in mediaeval hagiography, the tales of the paladins of Charlemagne, and similar material that does.
(The Easter Bunny page needs work; there's a more than 1000 year gap between the Saxon goddess Eostre and the Pennsylvania Dutch, and it isn't explained how the Saxon goddess survived all that time; the role of the chocolatiers is also unmentioned. And some notice needs to be taken of Robert Devereaux's novel Santa Steps Out.)
At any rate, I'd be happy to lose the Easter Bunny here. But if so, a stricter working definition of "Christian mythology" needs to be taken. Also, it probably needs to be mentioned that non-Christians probably find Biblical miracle tales mythological themselves. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:13, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)


I tried to rewrite to take account some of the above. What do you think? DJ Clayworth 15:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)


Ihcoyc: I purposely split stories believed at one time to be true from stories always known to be fictional or allegorical, and put Milton (and would have put Dante if I'd thought of him - good addition) in the second. I still think that's the right split. Why do you think Dante is different from Narnia, except for the age? DJ Clayworth 16:47, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Towards a better definition of mythology

"However in common usage a myth is a story that is not true"

I don't believe this is the common usage. When someone calls something a myth or just a myth, he is not saying it is false. I think the proper meaning is that the story is not proven true. (unsigned)

That's a nice, if minor distinction. The point of the passage (which I've just replaced) is that many Christian theologians consider the Bible to be 'myth' in the technical sense because it is explanatory and symbolic, but that it is also true. However if you call the bible a 'myth' to a Christian you are normally going to be disagreed with. This has caused a certain amount of rancour between theologians using the word in its technical sense and ordinary Christians taking it in its common sense. DJ Clayworth 17:47, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A better definition of "Mythology" than our anonymous contributor offers might be provided by someone who has read some, or has simply looked at the Wikipedia entry Mythology. Many folks who deny that there could be any Christian mythology are equally unable to define "mythology". --Wetman 19:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lord of the Rings?

I'll be removing this mention unless someone speaks up w an sufficient explanation. [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 00:41, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would back this up. While LotR has a lot of Christian themes, it doesn't really cut it as mythology. DJ Clayworth 16:49, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Some people would include J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or George MacDonald's At the Back of the North Wind, Lilith, and Phantastes in this category.

I removed the above. I suspect that in all the centuries of Christianity, better examples of Christian mythology might be found. [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 17:56, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Replication

An ancient version of this page (with Larry Sanger edits in the last 20 of the history) exists at The stories of Christianity - merge or simply delete? --Oldak Quill 18:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't see much there that isn't already here; this one has a better title. I would just redirect that to this page unless someone strongly objects. -- Smerdis of Tlön 21:37, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


[edit] "There is no Christian mythology"

Wikipedia's vandals express this POV best:

18:10, 6 Feb 2005, User:66.134.0.228 erased all text and substituted: Bull. Thats all I have to say. Bull. There is no "christian mythology" never has been never will be. I mean COME ON. Porn becoming every day life is more likly than there being Christian mythology. The whole idea of mythology is basically all about multiple gods, giants, monsters, and the like. But if you were to say Christian Proverbs you would be right on the money. Cristian proverbs were used all the time by Jesus to show the meaning of a specifice metaphor.

I agree! How can anybody say anything is mythology, whether talking animals, or giants, unless someone who was around at the time the so-called Christian Myths were said to have taken place could reveal that they were infact myth. I think the title Christian proverbs should be the replacement title, and that their little snippets about Frosty,Rudolph, and Santa should be removed, because on a religious basis, many people could find this offensive. RandyS0725 17:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Wow. Sometimes quoting some people at length almost verges on violating the "No personal attacks" policy, doesn't it? Perhaps it is not helpful to hold up this example as a straw man. Dystopos 05:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • (Be assured that it doesn't ever come near violating any policy accurately to quote any edit ever. --Wetman 07:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC))
    • If the person or statement were notable it would be important to see it here, but as far as I can tell, the quotation has been copied here purely as a rhetorical device meant to discredit other, more rational arguments against the article. Dystopos 17:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • We await with anticipation 1000 rational words from Dystopos on the theme "There Is No Christian Mythology", added to the article rather than the Talkpage. I overhear talk radio in taxicabs only, needless to say, but I recognize that the authentic quote I produced is quite sufficiently recognizable in style and tone to everyone, and quite worth displaying here. I would not have displayed it, if it had not been representative of a genre so widespread that even I am aware of it. --Wetman 17:59, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • Well of course there is Christian Mythology. That's not my point. I just don't see the reason this quote has been added to the talk page as it contributes nothing to rational discussion. Dystopos 05:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if it's worthwhile responding here, but all I'm going to do is quote what is said elsewhere. Mythology is not "all about multiple gods and the like". It is stories with deep explanatory or symbolic significance. DJ Clayworth 15:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Precisely so. --Wetman 17:59, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hows not agreeing that there is or is not Christian mythology relevant?

[edit] Conscious falsification?

  • Suppressed text: "Even describing those beliefs of folk Christianity that are not based in Scripture as myth may be taken by some Christians as an attack on Christianity in general." Is this text not accurate, as demonstrated even in the edit history of Christian mythology? This concerns non-Scriptural elements folk Christianity characterized as myth.
  • User:DJ Clayworth's substitution: " Describing Christian histories thought to be true, especially Bible accounts, as myth is generally taken by Christians as an attack on Christian belief." Does everyone see the twist that has been given? Of course this is true, but it has no bearing on Christian mythology, as User:DJ Clayworth is doubtless perfectly aware. the question is: are other posts by this User as dishonest as this one? I have not reverted this edit yet, in the hopes that its author may wish to retract it. --Wetman 22:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking of this as a 'twist'. I believe the version I wrote is more accurate (though I could be wrong here). My experience is that most Christians don't get the slightest upset about describing non-scriptural stories as 'myth'. The legends about Pontius Pilate, to use the example from the article. I've never heard anyone complain when they are described as 'myth'. The exception I guess might be Catholics who would probably complain about the Assumption of Mary being described as myth, since that's church doctrine for them. But again I may be wrong. Which edits did you think showed Christians taking categorisation of non-doctrinal stories as myth as an attack? DJ Clayworth 13:03, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Stock expressions of modesty aside, the subject of the entry is Christian mythology. Clayworth has substituted a Red herring, one that is in itself a true statement, thus acceptable to the desultory reader, but which is irrelevant to this subject. Indoctrinated Christianists do in fact turn discussions of Christian mythology into rightly resented attacks on "Christian histories thought to be true." Clayworth's trick shows one subversive technique by which they do so.
I have returned both statements to the text, in an attempt to disambiguate the two, as follows:
"Though describing as myth essential Christian mysteries and New Testament narratives considered true by Christians is generally taken as an attack on Christian belief, even describing in terms of myth those beliefs of folk Christianity that are not based in Scripture, nor in Church history nor in developed doctrine may sometimes be taken by some Christians as an attack on Christianity in general."
I trust that is sufficiently colorless and accurate. --Wetman 14:21, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll let that stand because I don't think it's important, but to say that my sentence is "irrelevant to this subject" and then expand it to two sentences seems to be somewhat contradictory. Your experience of Christians must be very different from mine, because I've never met anyone who objected to the legends about Pilate, or Paradise Lost, or St George, or any of the things we list as 'myth' here being described as such. Do you have specific categories of Christians in mind (fundamentalist, Catholic, non-Euopean or whatever)? If so maybe you could be specific. DJ Clayworth 15:21, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Most extraordinary, to say "I'll let that stand" but actually quietly delete it. No doubt this was an oversight, however, and DJ Clayworth will in truth be content to "let that stand".

(As an aside 'indoctrinated' is a somewhat loaded term, don't you think?) DJ Clayworth 15:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is a simple difference between education and indoctrination. One is self-critical and takes a stand outside the subject. The other does not, but concentrates on doctrine. Nothing loaded about either term. By labelling "indoctrination" as a "loaded" term, one seeks by a roundabout route to forbid its use, as a "pejorative", thus making it difficult even to discuss the phenomenon. Is that not the tactic? The indoctrinated are the ones who deny that a Christian mythology exists, or attempt to confuse discussion of it with attacks on core belief from Scripture. But I think that's been cleared up in the entry as it now stands. --Wetman 06:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've just noticed that you added the double sentences back in a different place, thus meaning that my original statement is still there as well as your 'combined' version. Do you want to fix that or shall I? DJ Clayworth 15:26, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I merged the double statement, so it now reads "Describing as myths histories that Christians believe to be true, especially Bible accounts, is generally taken by Christians as an attack on Christian belief.". I hope this is acceptable. DJ Clayworth 21:38, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Merged? The text appears to have been suppressed, under the Edit Summary "merge duplicate statements" Is there any genuine problem with the factual nature of this compromise text, as I have returned it to the entry? The disingenuous substituted sentence about describing Christian truths as myths, "especially Bible accounts" is not what this article is about. --Wetman 06:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It actually is closely related to what the article is about. My point was this: 1) Academics use myth to mean a symbolic and explanatory story. 2) In this context symbolic and explanatory stories can be true 3) Most people don't realise this, so when a (Christian) academic describes something like the incarnation as a myth, they think that academic is implying that the story is false, and thus denying their Christian faith. It's actually an important point. DJ Clayworth 19:47, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rename this page "Christian Archetypes"

I think the crux of this issue is the word "mythology." Before we vote, I want to hear what enyone has to say about renaming this page. Christian Mythology --> Christian Archetypes. What do y'all think? MPS 16:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

No, absolutely not. Archetypes and mythology are very different. A myth is a story; an archetype is a character. Mythological stories may or may not involve archetypes. More to the point in many cases it is the stories that carry the meaning in Christian mythology, and not the characters. Also 'mythology' is a relatively well-understood work, and 'archetype' is not. If you want to write an article on Christian archetypes that would be fine with me. DJ Clayworth 17:38, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I checked out the Wikipedia archetype article, and characters can be defined by archetypes, but "Archetype is defined as the first original model of which all other similar persons, objects, or concepts are merely derivative, copied, patterned, or emulated." (my emphasis added) This says to me that Original Sin, The Judges, Logos, sacrifice, communion, Suffering servant, Christ Figure and agape feasts would be some archetypes (concepts and objects, or as you would call them, myths) that are fundamental in defining Christianity. In this sense, Rudoph, Santa Claus, and The Golden Rule would be derivative of, or at least distant from, the concepts that actually define Christianity. MPS 20:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the fact that some Christians resist the very existence of a Christian mythology is not nearly prominent enough in the article. --Wetman 17:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand the above statement. Can you please explain who these people are, and in what way they "resist the very existence of a Christian mythology". DJ Clayworth 13:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
The fact that we call them 'mythologies' has undertones that imply Modernist POV. (I use Modernism here in the sense of "we used to have primitive religions but now we have the power of rationality and science to progress us from the Dark Ages of superstition to the Modern Age of rigorous scientific fact.") As much as I respect science, I want to challenge the use of the term 'myth' by pointing out a common scientific myth: "GENERIC SCIENTIST was a brilliant and eccentric innovator who caused a stir within the scientific community of his era with a controversial and paradigm-shifting discovery. Technically, this is a myth that shows up in many biographies of scientists. Saying that the history of science is filled with myths makes it sound made up. quod erat demonstrandum Maybe we should call them themes. MPS 20:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
If we call them "archetypes," we import the paganizing Jungian mummery, which is perhaps far worse than the "modernist" scientism you describe. On the other hand, no Christian body continues to endorse belief in dragon-slaying saints and similar medieval wonderlore. "Mythology," even in the semi-pejorative sense of "legends we know are not true," accurately describes such beliefs. The Roman Catholic Church purged its saints calendar of dozens of legendary figures on the grounds that they likely did not exist. Smerdis of Tlön 21:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I just reread the article and I think I overreacted. I am ok with calling things Christian mythology as long as most people don't actually attribute it to the orthodox Christian canon. Calling stuff that's in the Bible (The Last Supper) mythology would be verboten, but talking about the purported powers of drinking from the Holy Grail would be perfectly kosher. But what about the Apocrypha? Is that legend or what? (See Aggadah for Jewish analogue) Also, I am not sure if Jung coopted the term archetype and made it his own. If the term archetype is not too offensive, I think I will start a separate article on Archetypes of Christianity since I think there's some merit to listing these. MPS 21:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I think that would be a great idea, but you might also want to look at Christian symbolism to make sure you don't overlap too much. DJ Clayworth 15:44, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
As to the Apocrypha, the apocryphal books accepted by some Christian denominations are all Old Testament apocrypha, and their contents range from relatively straightforward historiography (the Maccabees books) to tales IMO rightly characterized as mythology (Judith, Tobit) — but all of this would be Jewish mythology in any case. The New Testament apocrypha contains some pretty bizarre stuff — the child Jesus committing murders using his Jesus powers, in one of the infancy Gospels — and this too belongs in Christian mythology. Smerdis of Tlön 11:40, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

In the sense used here, Myth does NOT just mean untrue story. A myth is a story with powerful symbolic or explanatory significance. I.e. they are stories people tell to help understand something. The statement about Mr GENERIC SCIENTIST would not be a myth. It's just someone oversimplifying. Christian mythology is Christian stories which explain or symbolise the Christian faith. DJ Clayworth 13:48, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Witchcraft

There could be more on this page concerning the mythology and propaganda (the very etymology of which is to "propogate the faith") preceding and surrounding the Inquisition, Witch Hunts, etc. Particularly since it is still pervasive to this day in more subtle and diluted forms. Not only with unabashadly confusing Wicca with Satanism, but the Satanic cult hysteria of the 80's, etc. You can even add Harry Potter and the Wizard of Oz as byproducts! However; I'm not gonna force the point, just put it out there. Its a complex subject on its own. But one thing is sure: Incubi and succubi, and ugly hags riding through the night on their broomsticks (I'm not even going into the implied metaphor there - just look at some mediæval woodcuts on the subject) were either the perverted delusions of so-called "holy men", or folk tales and/or religion put through the proverbial religio-political spin cycle -- they didn't exist before some (*note for the record I'm not bashing all Christendom) Christians created them (and don't give me the old "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" translation). In modern times; though Halloween may be an ancient Celtic festival, its modern form is more Christian archetype than Celtic pagan (or Satanic!) fact. Though witches and Satan may not be separated in this historical context (thanks to the very mythology thus inculcated), the figure of Satan himself is far from any of the few oblique references given in the Bible - but the Apocrypha comes in here (including many other factors such as the horned gods, Dante, Paradise Lost, etc.), and that has been discussed already above.

Though I firmly believe that "myth" is by no means pejorative, especially if you have read any Joseph Campbell; - in this sense, the stories had little more purpose than to scare the tithing and tax paying population into submission. At least that's my admittedly POV take on it. In any case, there could be more on the subject, no matter what your view is. Merely making a small mention of Faust doesn't cut it. And does the LOTR's footnote need to be there? It seems to me, that whenever you believe in anything strong enough, you start "seeing" things anywhere - 'if you listen long and hard enough you'll eventually hear what you want to hear', to paraphrase the saying. Virgin Mary in a Tortilla anyone? Khiradtalk 05:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Stories (true or false) propagated by Christians about others do not come under the definition of myth used here. What we mean here is symbolic or explanatory stories which are relevant to the Christian faith. I expect the whole question of witchcraft and wicca is covered in plenty of other places. DJ Clayworth 16:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Relatedly, the footnote on the LOTR probably shouldn't be here. But long experience has shown that if we don't mention it, someone will come in a few weeks and add LOTR to the list of Christian mythological stories; so rather than reverting this every few weeks it's easier to keep a note there saying that LOTR isn't mythology. DJ Clayworth 16:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Sections Added

Hello everyone. As you can see (if its still up--just revert to earlier version if its been reverted), I've added a section on the origins of christian mythology, its adoption and spread. I've done lots of reasearch on the topic and felt it might be more apropos here than in the Christianity page itself, where this has been an ongoing debate. I welcome feedback about adding these sections, the content, help with any issues regarding NPOV language, and to help make it fit in the resst of the flow in this interesting article per a consensus of other editors here. I didn't mean any disrespect by adding the sections myself, as it can be easily undone, but did it more so we can all have a look at what it looks like within the article overall (instead of placing the text here first). I think it look good and welcome input. Thanks! Giovanni33 02:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC) p.s. I have references for anything that needs to be cited.

I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of the second and third paragraphs of the 'Legacy' section. They are not about Christian mythology at all, but about the place of Christianity in the Western World (and with some very doubtful statements - try telling the Republican Party that Christianity has 'been reduced to private spirituality'). If no-one objects I'll remove them. DJ Clayworth 03:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe legacy is not the right word. I say legacy because its dwindled so much from what it use to be only a hunded years go. Yes, we have the republican party but we are talking about modern society, not just the US (and even so this is a minority of the republican party). Notice I say that certain subgroups within modern society still retain a strong element of Christian mythology in their understanding of life, and I say it is also true that Christian values often inform law and other official elements within different Western societies. But the main point is that nowhere today do we find biblical mythology providing both the popular and official myths of modern industrial society as it did in centuries past. This mythological construct is no longer the accepted dominant mythology glueing together modern society; what we do have is hanger-ons, who are very active yes, but they are seeking to bring back the past. And, everyear the percentage of our population (within industrial societies) who subscribes to these myths gets less and less, as evidencec by the continual increase in those who describe themselves as agnostic or atheist. Giovanni33 06:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The more I read the second and third paragraphs of the "legacy" section, the more I think they need removed. "Since the end of the eighteenth century, biblical stories have ceased to provide the central mythology of Western society." Really? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise; or, at least, they now share status with other mythical ideals (such as, in America, the cowboys of the Old West, Superman, or Star Wars). So, perhaps it would be better to say they now share their previously central status. KHM03 11:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Truth or falsehood

The section concerning the truth or falsehood of myth is there because, while strictly applicable to all myths, is of special significance to Christianity. In general people do not get upset because Norse stories are called 'myth' because they are generally believed to be false. The same is not true of Bible stories, and calling them 'myth' (which academics do) can cause upset. That's why the section is there. DJ Clayworth 22:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

here is a good source for myth being regarded as 'true' in academic circles. DJ Clayworth 23:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I know why its there. I gave my reasons for ditching the section in my edit summary. If there is consensus something should be there, strongly propose some re-write and cleanup. Btw, thanks for the clear explanation, etc. Well done. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to amend the wording. DJ Clayworth 23:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins sections

I'm starting to have real trouble with the sections about "Origins of Christian Mythology". They give a summary of (one theory of) Christian belief structure, but they don't seem to be talking about the origins of Christian mythology specifically? Why are they here, and what is their relevance to Christian mythology specifically? Is someone intending to expand on them soon? DJ Clayworth 00:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say...have at it...edit away. KHM03 (talk) 11:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


copied from my talk page - DJ Clayworth You asked about the background section of the article. Since the article in general is about the stories of Christianity, it does make sense to have some discussion of where those stories came from. Rather than move or remove it, I would probably just add to it, things like alternative sources for the stories Martin thinks came from Osiris, and the obvious connections with Jewish stories and prophecies , and later hagiographies and other stories. So much to do, so little time. That's my initial take anway, I'm open to other suggestions. Wesley 12:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

After a lot of discussion it was decided that this was not about 'the stories of Christianity' but about mythology in the non-academic sense - specifically excluding Bible stories etc. Is there really not another place where the 'origins' of Biblical stories can be considered? DJ Clayworth 13:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section for the following reasons:
  • It was agreed a while back that this article would not consider bible stories and other Christian doctrine under the category of mythology since it is a contentious naming. There are plenty of other places where the origins of Christianity are discussed, and any information we have on the subject should be there.
  • The section discussed the origins of Christian philosophy and theology, neither of which fall under even the broadest definition of mythology. At the very least a myth must be a story, not an academic statement.
  • The section give effectively only one researcher (and a marginal one at that) credence on Christian origins. Since there are much better sections in Wikipedia on the subject I suggest we let people read those rather than a hugely incomplete account here.

DJ Clayworth 17:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations and expert

I've added these flags purely as the sections read as OR currently. The first thing I thought when reading them was - who says? I'm interested and as it's new to me I would like to see references and links to read more. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalkTCF 11:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology"?

I can't spot the diff, but it looks like somebody changed the intro to put in "Christian Mythology" what ever that means. Wouldn't being the central figure of Christianity sort of make saying the "Center of Christian Mythology" redundant? And when did that neutrality tag appear, who wants to debate whether the article is neutral or not? Homestarmy 03:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like Rossnoxin encountered our editor friend there, who hasn't showed up here yet.... Homestarmy 05:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no direct link to Christian mythology in the article, it is only in the "see also" section which i think is insufficient, I came here to find out about the centrality of jesus in christian myth and lore and found it exceedingly difficult to locate the information. Beyond that I think it is not redundant but only natural because other articles about various gods and prophets mention their relation to the mythology very early in the intro to that article.

The one who added the neutrality tag wrote:

"Because to use the word "mythology" comes from the word "myth" which means passed down by oral tradition. This is simply untrue in reference to Jesus, for his teachings were passed down via manuscripts. Mythology is one sided, and completely opposed to the neutrality that has made Wiki so great. The article itself is not the place to discuss whether or not Jesus lived. If we leave the word mythology, we do a drastic and unfortunate disservice to our readers. If we need to link something, link to [[Christian worldview]"

I wrote: Myth can be written as well. Please read up on your definitions and your anthropology. If you even read the Christian mythology article you will see that there is both biblical myth and folk myth. Please stop misrepresenting words and positions. from the christian mythology article:

Christian mythology is a body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance. Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religious system, including the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments.

I linked it directly to the Christian mythology article, precluding it from one sidedness, this does not at all imply jesus was a mythological figure and didn't live, it merely points to the fact that jesus is central to the christian mythology, not that he was a myth himself, please read the sentence before copy pasting and being critical.

it is a compound entry "christian mythology", you cannot simply remove one part of it and mix things up as you see fit. If you think Jesus isn't an integral part of christian mythology your are sorely mistaken, I suggest you read either the article on christian mythology, or the new testament (what I think many would consider one of the most appropriate sources of information on jesus. If you feel it is necessary then link to Christian worldview as well! Solidusspriggan 21:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

An idea I thought of would be to make a new section in this article, detailing how Jesus has been rendered in several different works in Mythology, principally from middle age works which, of course, most Christian do not take seriously, (Or anyone else for that matter) such as the Infancy Gospel and other things like that, I mean, some of those things are somewhat notable and might be interesting to report on. Im a bit concerned that the article is bloated enough already, but it could be important. Besides, I was being critical because the introduction was settled on after like 4 months of debate and just got changed randomly, these sort of things look suspicious. And what exactly is not neutral about the introduction/article that warrants the tag? Homestarmy 22:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The Christian Mythology article is full of weasel words, and refers mainly to stories about the "saints". Jesus, therefore, is not the central character of these stories. That is why comments on Christian Mythology do not belong in this article. rossnixon 01:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Didn't see the debate already going on here; I would suggest commentary be moved here from the pink "to-do list" section at the top. Jesus is clearly the "central figure" in Christian mythology (which includes the vast body of folktales and traditions that have grown up around Christian belief and practice over the last two millennia, but which have no solid scriptural basis). Attempts to deny this seem to be based in the mistaken notion that "admitting" Christianity has a mythology somehow weakens its claim to Truth. — JEREMY 01:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"Christian mythology" falls under the category of "Christianity" itself. Mentioning both "Christianity" and "Christian mythology" is, firstly, redundant. Also, it seems as though it may be an intentional attempt to include the term "mythology" to anger people and assume that Christianity is "mythological" and false. — CRAZY`(IN)`SANE 01:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It still seems to me that it would be much easier (And certainly would alleviate the "Myth" part) to simply create a sub-section in this article on the many, many times in which Jesus is refereed to in mythology, after all, the Medieval times were pretty weird, there's the infancy gospel which in my opinion is worth the most noting, I think a couple other things, there might even be some Catholic visitation-type deals, hey, even Islam might have a say on this, though I suspect they'd probably think it blasphemy to make up stories about Jesus that aren't true, ah well. Then, with this section, we can fully enunciate on how these myths are most certainly not accepted by Christianity at all (or most other people I figure for that matter), which would, in my opinion, not only justify putting an otherwise loaded "Christian Mythology" term at the beginning, but getting a chance to take pot shots against fake stuff, (With NPOV language of course) in addition to making the term "myth" be far more easily understood to the reader as not in any way implying that Christianity today is somehow based on fake junk, and of course, adding some content which I think might be interesting. If we have 2 footnotes, maybe one from the Mythology article and another pointing towared a future section, I think this can totally work. Homestarmy 01:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What about changing the phrase to "Christianity and Christian folk culture" and linking to a section rather than to Christian mythology? Still, you're probably right about the undue weight of mentioning the mythology in the opening, although the fact that there's no mythology section in this article looks suspiciously POV to me. At bare minimum one would expect a subarticle linked from the rather crowded "Cultural impact of Jesus" section, although I think the subject deserved its own section, given how much of what many people "know" about Jesus is in fact non-scriptural. — JEREMY 02:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
The thing of it is, I don't know what "Christian folk culture" means, is that like the wild west and family feuds and stuff? Homestarmy 02:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, so you don't like that terminology. I just felt it might be less confrontational. — JEREMY 08:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Its not that I don't like the idea of a different word, its just I can't understand that particular word :). Homestarmy 15:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Lives of the saints type material might constitute "Christian mythology". Canonical material, whether or not it is true, is not usually considered mythology. john k 15:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

There are two uses of the word "myth" which is causing this confusion. Obviously, Christianity, like any other religion, has a body of mythology. And this isn't just the "medieval folk tales" about the Saints. The problem is that there is a use of the word myth that implies a fictional story. "I heard that Washington chopped down the cherry tree." "Oh yeah, that's just a myth!" In addition, a lot of world mythologies include stories that obviously seem like fiction to our modern sensibilities. Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Native American, Aztec, Indian, Egyptian, etc. That said, Christianity is not excempt from having beliefs and stories about their central figures and that explain origins. Just because one POV is that the these stories are historical, does not make them any less part of mythology. Surely there are Hindus that believe their myths are historical, but do we stop using the phrase Vedic mythology because we feel it may offend Hindus that are using a different connotation of the word "myth"? Just because most of us come from English speaking countries that are Judeo-Christian, does not mean we can point to Hindu mythology and call them "myths", but tip toe around Christian mythology in order not to offend a POV. In fact, it is biased and really POV to imply that Christianity doesn't have myths, but all other world religions do.--Andrew c 19:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
In support, let me quote my dictionary's definition of "myth":
"a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature."
Christianity is very clearly a myth, according to this definition. Of course, being a myth doesn't automatically make it false. Al 19:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Eh? This is the Jesus article, all the text said was that Jesus is often referred to in "Christian mythology". Christianity is not the Infancy Gospel of Thomas.... Homestarmy 19:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a big difference between "Hindu mythology" and "Christian mythology". Hindus don't actually believe that Shiva literally chopped off Ganesha's head and replaced it with an elephant head. If they did, they'd be pretty dumb. It is acknowledged to be a symbolic story. The same is true of ancient Greek and Roman attitudes to stories about the gods. Christianity is different. Its truth claims are related to literal belief in the historical accuracy of eventsas a fulfilment of prophesy. Not all Christians insist on this of course, but it is an important aspect of Christian tradition. Using the word "mythology" is problematic for this very reason. It automatically implies a POV countering this aspect of Christian belief.Paul B 19:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
With respect as we have been discussing above, some muslims would think anyone believing in the trinity was stretching things somewhat. This argument happens all the time at the mythology page - myth does not mean falsehood. Anyway if we are talking literal truth how many Christians really believe Noah put two of each kind on a boat (what a food chain that would have been) or that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden. These stories are all part of Christian mythology which is centred on Jesus. We have to be careful that we are not showing systemic bias by thinking it's ok for other religions to be classed as mythological but Christianity can't be. Sophia 19:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
With respect, I made it absolutely clear that I was not talking about an opposition between truth and fasehood, but about a distinction between literal and symbolic meaning. I don't know what your point about the Trinity is intended to imply. Of course Muslims don't believe it. Trintitarian Christians typically believe that it is factually true. Muslims don't. In Christianity (and in Islam) the distinction between fact and fiction has been important in ways that they are not in "pagan" cultures, as I have just tried to argue. Incidentally, that's one reason why Classical paganism was so easily appropriated by Christianity in the Renaissance. In some Christian traditions stories like Eden are accepted as mythological, but others are not (e.g. the Resurrection). In some all Biblical stories are accepted as literally true, in a few none are. But for most distinguishing between fact and fiction has been crucial. Paul B 20:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I was responding to the "pretty dumb" charge above. Sophia 20:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There was no "pretty dumb" charge. The point is that Hindus dont believe that. They would be dumb if they did, but they dont. Only some really dumb Christians and Muslims believes that they do! Paul B 21:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your POV, Paul B, but keep in mind that it is just a POV. There are fundamentalist sects of Hindism (namely ISKCON, for one) that believe all Hindu scripture is literal. I mean, I could similary say that "No one who doesn't have a brick for a brain honestly believes a human being died and then literally came back from the dead. For one, it is physically impossible. The resurrection story is obviously symbolic," but that would be just as much a POV as claiming all Hindu myths are symbolic. I think the key point to keep in mind is that mythology doesn't mean fiction (even though there is a connotation of the similar word 'myth' that does). Looking through other articles of mythological figures, they seem to name the mythology in the opening or have a template about the mythology at the bottom of the page. The problem here isn't that Jesus Christ isn't a part of Christian mythology, the problem is that this article covers more than just the mythological figure. It covers different religious and historical POV, where a historical Jesus suggested by someone like Crossan is different from the mythological Jesus of Christianity. That said, I think it would helpful to include the wikilink to Christian mythology in the paragraph about the Christian POV in the lead.--Andrew c 20:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the "Mythology" being referred to here has anything to do with the Bible, I was under the impression it was just stuff like the Infancy Gospel and all that medieval stuff and whatnot that was floating around. Isn't that what the "Christian Mythology" article has in it anyway? Homestarmy 21:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Fundamentalist Hindus typically believe in the truth of the Vedas, which BTW gnever even mention Ganesha. Neither does the Gita, which ISKON accepts as divine truth. They are Vaishnavites, so they don't care about poor old Ganesha. None of this affects what I said, which is that no Hindu believes that Shiva literally chopped off Gansha's head and replaced it with an elephant's. This is because they are not dumb. Lots and lots of Christians believe that Jesus was literally resurrected from the dead. 21:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem with referring to Biblical stories as "mythology" is that it makes it hard to talk about the actual mythology that developed later among both Jews and Christians. Whether or not the events of the Book of Genesis actually happened, they are not normally discussed under the rubrik of "Jewish mythology" - although later elaborations of the stories based on non-biblical material might indeed constitute mythology. But at least there it's arguable. The Gospels simply aren't mythology. Their account of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus may or may not be accurate, but they aren't in any way similar to mythology, in that they were written about near contemporary events set in a specific historical time. Whether or not Hindus actually believe that Shiva cut off Ganesh's head, or that Krishna did all the things legends say about him, or whatever, the fact remains that writings about Ganesh, or Krishna, were written in a time long, long after whenever those events were supposed to have occurred. The same goes for classical mythology - the earliest example is Homer's epics, which were probably written down about five centuries after the Trojan War, and were set in a hazy epic of which there were no written records. Whatever we think of the Gospel narrative (and I do not, in fact, believe that Jesus was resurrected), it still does not contain the characteristics of any undisputed mythology. john k 15:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, is the mythology article there dealing with the Bible or various outside sources? I was under the impression it was limited to non-Biblical accounts mostly, besides, its sort of a, well, lousy looking article anyway, if we make our own section here we can make it better and just mention stuff like the infancy gospel and medieval things and whatnot. Homestarmy 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a long drawn out debate, but from my perspective the Gospels are mythology. Of course, it doesn't matter whether I think this, just as it doesn't matter that John Kenney thinks they are not mythology. The question is, are there credible historians, students of comparative literature, and folklorists who call the Gospels mythology? If so, we need to acknowledge this, state whose POV it is and provide some context. If no such specialist calls them mythology, it is a moot point. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
After a huge and somewhat acrimonious debate, spread over several articles, it was decided not to include Bible stories as part of mythology. In common usage the word is offensive to many, and they probably deserve their own articles anyway. DJ Clayworth 15:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
So, this article uses a definition of myth that differs from the mythology article? Doesn't seem like a good idea. peace – ishwar  (speak) 05:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

RandyS0725 17:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Personally, for those of you who do not believe that Christian mythology is an inappropriate term for one's still-established beliefs, I agree whole-heartedly with you, as it is quite offensive to the people (including myself) who are still apart of this religious faith.

Perhaps if you applied yourself a bit more to a complete understanding of the meaning of "mythology" rather than trumpeting that your personal bias against this word causes you to be offended, it would be more productive. You seem to labor under some kind of misapprehension that myth implies false. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

RandyS0725 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)I would only believe so because I've been told so. How can you say what you just said and not feel like a complete idiot??? Mythology is a collection of stories, particular to one or more cultures, known to be false (hence Mythology, "the study of stories). Don't cross me on definitions, because you are wrong when you say that statement. And no it is not a bias, I simply feel that publicly having my beliefs being exploited as "Mythology" like the Greeks' works or something else widely known to be fictitious, is offensive. I don't see atheism being widely disputed and the people who commit themselves to that belief aren't ridiculed and mocked. At least if you are going to put Christian Theology under observation by those who already may not accept it, please name it appropriately, not perscribing your own name to it as though it was even apart of your belief, to give it a name anyway. How dare you tell me I have no knowledge of what mythology is? I immensely study Greek, Nordic, Egyptian, and Roman Mythology, and I am a devout Christian, so don't give me that bunk about how my own bias toward the word mythology cause me to be offended. I know what mythology means, and there is a difference. Although Wikipedia will probably do nothing about it, as they are probably all atheists anyway, I will stand by my view that the article altogether, goes against the policy of not being one-sided, or not expressing one view as being ultimately right or wrong. Killer Chihuahua, you have been graced by the presence of a Child of the King.

I wrote my own section and everything but I decided to delete and jump into this one. In defense of RandyS0725 (so to speak), adding the term mythology to Christianity is offensive. Mythology in the literal sense is already implied within Christianity as with all other religions. The problem is is that with many other words (like pagan and cult) the word "mythology" has evolved into having negative connotations. Everyone realizes that using the word "mythology" in conjunction with Christianity or any other religion will illicit a confrontational response. It is self-evident, like our rights in the Constitution.
As for you Randy, I have a couple problems with what you said. First, you are ALMOST on point with the definition of mythology. The only part thats off is the "known to be false". Thats not the definition but the negative connotation that it has evolved into. Secondly, in the defense of your faith, which is your right as a human and duty as a spiritual individual, you in turn insult my own. From what I gathered from your writing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are offended because Christian Mythology puts your religion on lower level with other religions labeled "mythology" as if Christianity was on a higher level than the Greek Faith. (this is what I gathered from your following sentence "I simply feel that publicly having my beliefs being exploited as "Mythology" like the Greeks' works or something else widely known to be fictitious, is offensive.") We can go round 'n round about who's religion is the right one 'til we're both dead and get nowhere. We all feel that our religion is the righteous path, but when we air those feelings in a public form of discourse we dishonor our own faith with preteniousness and hubris. In accordance with my sensebilities and the Wikipedia standards of assuming good faith, I will not take it personally.

Lastly, everyone's spouting off different definitions of mythology and I'm amazed that there can be so much contention. So with that in mind I went to the dictionary and will re-print it here:

Mythology: 1. A body of myths, as that of a particular people or that relating to a particular person 2. Myths collectively 3. The science or study of myths 4. A set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a particular group or the history of an event, arising naturally or deliberately fostered.

If anyone has any of the three C's for me, feel free to let me have it. "Total salvation suffers from inflation" - Otep - - - User:MrFuchs 12NOV06

[edit] POV

Why is this article so POV? 71.135.65.235

How is it POV? And how could it be improved? I just added a bunch of stuff on modern Christmas movies that uses Christian themes without calling them such. MPS 13:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
First off, the article looks like it has been written in a christian pov and I quote:

Stories which were once taken as true but are no longer accepted by most Christians are most easily identified as Christian mythology, such as the tale of Saint George or Saint Valentine.

but isn't all christian storys mythology?71.135.57.112 22:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I removed some stuff about movies and TV. Rudolph, Frosty the Snowman and Home Alone are certainly not Christian mythology. DJ Clayworth 14:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

What the crap?!?!?! they certainly are. MPS 02:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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