Talk:Chiropractic

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1 Added quote
2 Manipulation vs Adjustment
3 new lead
4 Cooperation
5 References (for whole page -- keep this section at bottom)

[edit] Added quote

(Copied from above)After reviewing Strangs book for "auditory" below, I came across this. I couldn't find a ref online so I'll type what he quoted for review. This is a quote by Joseph Janse of National Chiropractic College in 1976 titled "The Wholistic Concept of Health Care Management", found in V. Strangs book called Principles and Practice of Chiropractic p.26

"Unless pathology is demonstrable under the microscope, as in the laboratory or by roentgenograms, to them [allopaths] it does not exist. For years the progressive minds in chiropractic have pointed out this deficiency. With emphasis they [chiropractors] have maintained the fact that prevention is so much more effective than attempts at a cure. They pioneered the all-important principle that effective eradication of disease is accomplished only when it is in its functional (beginning) phase rather than its organic (terminal) stage. It has been their contention that in general the doctor, the therapist and the clinician have failed to realize exactly what is meant by disease processes, and have been satisfied to consider damaged organs as disease, and to think in terms of sick organs and not in terms of sick people. In other words, we have failed to contrast disease with health, and to trace the gradual deteriorization along the downward path, believing almost that mild departures from the physiological normal were of little consequence, until they were replaced by pathological changes..."

I couldn't find the original on the web, does anyone have access to it. I guess we could use Strang's, its a secondary ref. I guess that shows we can all get along :) What do ya'll think?--Hughgr 08:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is an important aspect in chiropractic thinking that is well stated an well referenced. I think it would go well in the chiropractic approach to healthcare section. We might need to paraphrase or quote the important aspects, or put the whole thing in quotes. See what you can do and we can work with it. --Dematt 12:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you already did it:) What are you a mindreader? --Dematt 12:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and you are thirsty :) But you neglected to answer my above question :) how should we make the reference? Or is it good like it is?--Hughgr 19:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OMG YOU ARE RIGHT! Dang you are good.. and yes it needs sourcing if you don't want Fyslee to zap it:) --Dematt 00:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the source I used is V. Strang's book (see above), but it's a quote, so should we find the original or go with strang's as a secondary ref.....you make the call!--Hughgr 02:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Prevention did not originate with chiropractic, nor is it unique to it. (There isn't much preventive medicine thinking in endless adjustments, which is a common practice.) The statement implies some things (the hidden straw man attacks on "allopaths") that are not true. It looks like anti-medical propaganda (woops, it is!).

Here's a rebuttal from G. Douglas Andersen, DC (who doesn't see much prevention of anything):

"Conversely, how many thousands of people have been turned off by those who practice with a "philosophy" geared toward overutilization driven by greed? Where is the literature to support the "catastrophic effects" the vast majority of the people on this planet supposedly suffer because they are not receiving regular manipulations? Where are the insurance studies to prove that people who go to the chiropractor 15 or 20 times a year, whether they have pain or not, have fewer injuries, less illness, longer lives, or lower health care costs?" Originally from Dynamic Chiropractic

-- Fyslee 20:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

He looks hipporcritical to me.[1]--Hughgr 00:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you referring to that might be construed as hypocritical? -- Fyslee 10:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we need to do some of those studies, huh. I wonder if they have them for Lipitor, yet;) --Dematt 00:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the biggest problems are first defining health and second being able to measure health.--Hughgr 02:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manipulation vs Adjustment

I am a Tri I student at a Chiropractic college and I noticed that Manipulation has been subistuted for Adjustment with no differentiation made between the two. From my limited exposure to Chiropractic I have been taught that a difference exists between the two. A manipulation is, as defined in Gatterman's Foundations of Chiropractic Subluxation second revision pg 12, "a manual procedure that involves a directed thrust to move a joint past the physiological range of motion without exceeding the anatomic limit." Where as an adjustment is defined as "any chiropractic theraputic procedue that uses controlled force, leverage, direciton, amplitude, and velocity directed at specific joints or anatomical regions."

To me this shows a distiction which should be made clear in the article. A chiropractic adjustment is not a manipulation. An adjustment has a specific force, direction, and velocity as well as a specific contact. A person popping their own knuckles could be considered to be administering a manipulation because afterall the only prerequisites for performing a manipulation involve a thrust and moving the joint past the phsiological range of motion without surpassing the anatomic limit. That is something that should be made clear.91z4me 01:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi 91z4me, the distinction your seeking is on the Spinal adjustment article. While I agree with your sentiment, an effort is being made to reduce this pages total size, we can't put everything we want on this one page. :)--Hughgr 02:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree you need to bring that to the spinal adjustment page to help differentiate the two. --Dematt 04:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome 91z4me. You are right. There really should be a separate article for Joint manipulation, where the chiropractic intention (correction of VS) is not included (which is often the only difference). Right now the Spinal adjustment article is the place to make distinctions. The broad definition of manipulation you cite can certainly include non-specific movements, but in practice (for non-DCs) the practice is usually very specific, including specific force, direction, velocity, and specific contact. It involves "controlled force, leverage, direciton, amplitude, and velocity directed at specific joints or anatomical regions," the only difference (from chiropractic) being the intention and the indications and contraindications. -- Fyslee 11:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now you can check out the new article - Joint manipulation. Much is contained in the Spinal adjustment article, but I have added more refs and information, as well as making sure that readers understand that the risks apply to all professions using manipulation/adjustment, not just to chiropractors, even though they are using it 95%(?) of the time. Some of what I have added there can also be used in the Spinal adjustment article. -- Fyslee 16:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new lead

Trying to make the lead representative of the article. I think all that needs to be added is the science section (VS is covered in the first paragraph). Good luck on coming up with something everybody can agree upon. :) --Hughgr 05:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

PS-I know you like it Fyslee but I hate having a reference section on the talk page. :) I vote to remove it. --Hughgr 05:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I like having it here is when the talk page is used for its intended purpose - to work on proposed text in the article. This way we can see if the refs actually work and discuss them. When the talk page is used as a discussion group, the section is irrelevant.

Otherwise your work on the lead is a definite improvement. -- Fyslee 10:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cooperation

Things are not going so well on the PS article due to some rather silly and short-sighted arbitration inducing behaviour of some editors. I just added some information to this article that I realize some editor here will not like very much. I will remove it myself if things go more smoothly on the PS article. I trust editors here can cooperate. KrishnaVindaloo 09:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)