Talk:Chinese dragon

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[edit] Origin

The mythology of the Eastern [oriental] dragon is scientifically said to have come/originated from the Chinese alligator. Then, the dragon, spread across Aisa during Chinese influence. Like many other aspects of Chinese culture, examples; Chinese New Year, usage of chopsticks and the Chinese writing in North East Asia.

"Scientifically said"? Right, which science said that? Uly 12:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Han style dragon is also 3 clawed, which explains the 3 clawed dragon went to Japan in Tang or pre-Tang period.

[edit] offspring?

I read Pixiu and it says it is the 9th offspring of this dragon, but a text search finds no "offspring" or "pixiu" in this article. What is with that? DyslexicEditor 00:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The information about offspring of the dragon is in the Chinese dragon#Classical depictions section. I'm not sure whether "pixiu" should be in the list, or whether it is an alternative name for one of the listed forms...

Many of the dragon offpsring/children have more than one name. --Sumple (Talk) 08:56, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon, Long

For most of its existence, this article started with the name "Chinese dragon". In January 2006, the word "Long" was added as an alternative English name, without any justification being cited.

I deleted this for several reasons:

"Long" is not yet the normal English name for a Chinese dragon, although "Lung" can be found. One particular problem with "long" is the pin'yin spelling, which is standard for modern Chinese but is not yet common in English. The older spelling "Lung" is much more common, as a Google search will reveal. (Also, the Cantonese name, which is just as likely a source for the name "lung" as Mandarin, cannot be spelt "long").
The Chinese dragon is also found in other Asian cultures and the specification of Mandarin Chinese as "standard" seems problematic. Japanese, for instance, uses Ryu, and this can also be found in English-language texts (also found in Google searches).
The name of the dragon in a number of languages, including Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, appears in parentheses at the start of the article. This should be enough for anyone wanting to know what the Oriental Dragon is known in the languages of countries where it is "found").

Despite the above, I appreciate that there are arguments for "Lung" or "Long" to be cited at the start of the article as a generic name for the Chinese dragon:

The dragon was originally a Chinese creature and is strongly identified with Chinese culture. In that sense the Chinese name may have some claim to primacy. The article itself is heavily focused on the Chinese dragon, to the exclusion of dragons in other (Oriental) cultures.
The name "Lung" (but not "Long") is found in English more often than the other names.

In the light of this, I would like to suggest an alternative approach for consideration, something like this:

The Chinese dragon or Oriental dragon, sometimes also called the Lung, is a mythical Chinese creature that also appears in other East Asian cultures. It is known by different names or pronunciations in the cultures in which it is found:

Chinese Traditional:龍; Simplifed:龙

--Mandarin pinyin: lóng --Cantonese: lùhng --Hokkien: leng

Japanese: 竜 ryū or tatsu
Korean: hangul: 룡 ryong
Vietnamese:Rồng

In fact, it might even be an idea to place the various names of the Oriental dragon in a box at the side. At present, placing the names in parentheses at the start tends to clutter up the text.

What do other contributors think? Bathrobe 03:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah good idea. Coz if you wrote "Long" in English most people would think it's long, as in lengthy.

But about "oriental dragon" - how common is that name in ordinary usage? --Sumple (Talk) 05:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Sumple, actually, there is a problem here that I hadn't realised. The whole area of Chinese/Oriental dragons is in something of a mess. There are separate articles on the Japanese dragon and the Korean dragon, but you wouldn't know it from reading this article because there are no direct links to them.

We need to decide the structure of these articles within Wikipedia. Should it be:

1. SEPARATE ARTICLES FOR EACH COUNTRY

This would involve a structure like this:

A. Central article on Oriental dragon (possibly just a disambiguation page)

B. Separate smaller articles on:

Chinese dragon (narrowed down a little to specifically deal with Chinese dragons only)
Japanese dragon
Korean dragon

etc.

2. MAIN ARTICLE (CHINESE DRAGON/ORIENTAL DRAGON) PLUS SEPARATE SPINOFFS FOR OTHER COUNTRIES

This would involve a structure like this:

A. Central article on Chinese dragon (or Oriental dragon) -- basically the current article.

B. Spinoff articles on:

Japanese dragon
Korean dragon

etc.

3. SINGLE UNIFIED ARTICLE ON THE ORIENTAL DRAGON

Single article on Oriental dragon, with the main section being on Chinese dragon and subsections dealing with Japanese dragon and Korean dragon.

All of this would involve a certain amount of rewriting. What do you think? (I have also noticed that there is an article called Dragon, which covers all kinds of dragon, including the European dragon and the Asian dragon. In fact, the European and Oriental dragons seem to me to be totally unrelated types. They only share the name "dragon" because early Westerners decided that the benevolent Chinese variety had something in common with their own vicious variety. Actually, I feel that Chinese dragons have more in common with the Australian Aboriginal Rainbow Serpent than they do with European dragons!)

Bathrobe 06:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bathrobe. I've been away for a bit, but here are my thoughts on these issues:

1. Organisation of the various Asian dragons:

I think that they should be combined in the same article because they are all the same creature - but slightly different in representation in different contexts.

I think it's significant that, for example, the Japanese dragon's toe numbers correspond to one version of the Chinese dragon but not the most common one. Unlike Chinese dragon vs Western dragon, the Chinese dragon and Japanese dragon are the same creature, but with some variations in representation.

Having read those articles, they're not very well written (and not many people appear to be paying much attention to them) and have a lot of redundant information already contained (and in some parts, more comprehensively or accurately) in the present article.

So, I think, if we combine these articles they'll at max only add a couple of paragraphs. We can have a new section or a subsection under "depictions" that deal with variations in different countries.

2. Article name.

Oriental dragon appears to be a good name for the article. But the Chinese dragon would be the most common name for this creature in English. So I'm thinking using one of these names for the article name, but listing both at the opening (as is the case at present).

3. Chinese dragon vs Western dragon.

It's my impression that the link between the (benevolent) Chinese dragon and the (malevolent) Western dragon was established at least by the time Buddhist sutras were translated into Chinese - the evil dragons in Buddhist mythology were translated into Chinese as the Long. Thus, in the Chinese version, Buddha says unto the arhats "There shall be thirteen stupas built over my ashes, lest they be destroyed by ghosts, monsters, dragons, or evil men."

This also raises a significant question: much of the mythology surrounding dragons in Japan and China (and elsewhere probably) has become intertwined with Buddhist concepts of the evil dragon - thus there are the benevolent dragon kings, but at the same time a quite different system of evil dragons. They are both depicted in the same way (as classical oriental dragons) but the mythology give them contradictory attributes. Should such mythology be sepratted out and treated as Buddhist/Indian/Western dragon mythology, or has it become so ingrained that it now forms a part of the Oriental dragon mythology? --Sumple (Talk) 00:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There had been a long discussion on the naming of the article, between Oriental/Chinese/Japanese/Korean Dragon a while back. It was finally decided that the main article remains Chinese Dragon. There were many good arguements for this choice, but let me just point out what in my opinion is the strongest: in both the Korean and Japanese article for this dragon state rather clearly that it is a Chinese mythical creature. Interestingly, since both Korean and Japanese have different words for oriental and European dragon, there was no cause for great confusion. Uly 00:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone know the relation between the Chinese dragon and the Bhutanese dragon? From a superficial look, it seems that the dragon on the Flag of Bhutan is extremely similar to the Chinese one. --Yuje 06:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Eastern dragon would be a better name in English. We should avoid sino-centrism. Jason Lee

[edit] Han Chinese - Descendent of the Dragon

I've never heard of read of anybody else calling themselves "Descendent of the Dragon" other than the Han Chinese. Please provide sources if editors want to change the link. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no such pure ethnic group as "Han Chinese". Hans Chinese are descendents of various ethnic groups over China's long history. All the people in China are taught to be "Descendent of the Dragon". How can you deny other non-han ethnic groups in China to be "Descendent of the Dragon"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edipedia (talk • contribs).

It's true that the Han Chinese have historically had a very mixed heritage. However, that does not mean that Han Chinese is still an ethnic identity. But this discussion is in the wrong place. Please read zh:漢人 or Han Chinese.

Saying all "Chinese people" are "Descendants of the Dragon" is problematic. Firstly, Chinese people leads to an ambiguous page. Secondly, can you show us any sources to say that all ethnic minorities in China also think of themselves as "Descandants of the Dragon"? --- Hong Qi Gong 20:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is how the Han Chinese article reads like "Thousands of years of regionalized assimilation of various ethnic groups and tribes in China is the primary reason for this diversity within the Han. Han Chinese is a subset of the Chinese nation (Zhonghua minzu). An alternate name that many Chinese people use to refer to themselves is the "Descendants of the Dragon"." Chinese people itself is an ambiguous concept. It should be connected to an ambiguous page. Edipedia 20:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you show a source to say that, for example, the Manchus or even the Tibetans think of themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon"? --- Hong Qi Gong 20:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edipedia (talk • contribs).

It's ridiculous because only Han Chinese think of themselves as Descendants of the Dragon. --- Hong Qi Gong 20:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh don't Bhutanese identify themselves with a dragon as well? --Sumple (Talk) 05:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of the ethnic minorities in China may identify themselves as Descendants of the Dragon as well. But the problem with referring that term to Chinese people in general is that it would imply anybody with Chinese citizenship/nationality, meaning all the ethnic minorities (55 groups officially recognised) in China, refer to themselves as Descendants of the Dragon. I have a lot of doubts about that. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

One comment though. By descendants of the dragon I assume you mean 龙的传人, which doesn't have to mean "descendants" as such. It could be disciples (as in a religion or belief system), or anyone carrying on anything. --Sumple (Talk) 00:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only Han Chinese is Chinese people?

I'm a little bothered by some HongKong or Taiwan editors on this article. Chinese people refers to Zhonghua Minzu not just Han Chinese. Zhonghua Minzu is the Descendants of the Dragon Everyone agrees on this. Stop change this article back and forth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edipedia (talk • contribs).

As I mentioned above, saying Descendants of the Dragon refers to Chinese people or Zhonghua Minzu is problematic because that includes all the ethnic minorities in China. Do Tibetans do this? Do the Zhuang people do this? The Miao? The Hui? The Mongols?

It is problematic also because Overseas Chinese also may refer to themselves as such, but they are not part of Zhonghua Minzu because they don't have Chinese citizenship. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC).

A member of Zhonghua Minzu doesn't need to have a citizenship of PRC. If you don't think you belong to Zhonghua Minzu, then you are not Chinese. Edipedia 15:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, please don't insert your comment in the middle of my comments. That looks confusing. Secondly, non-Han Chinese, meaning all the ethnic minorities in China, are part of Zhonghua Minzu, so yes, it does matter in this case. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Zhonghua Minzu is refered as Descendants of the Dragon. Other non-Han Chinese belongs to Zhonghua Minzu. Then they are classified as Descendants of the Dragon. Edipedia 15:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, please don't insert your comments in the middle of mine. And also, again, you have not provided any sources to say that all the ethnic minorities in China, in essense, all of Zhonghua Minzu, consider themselves as Desendants of the Dragon. I'm open to your edit, if you can show us some evidence. But you haven't done that yet. Do Tibetans, or Mongols, or the Zhuang, etc etc, consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon? And Zhonghua Minzu refer to those of Chinese citizenship. Another problem here is that Overseas Chinese may also consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon.

Anyway, I've exhausted my three edits for the day. So if anybody agree with me, please revert. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This is how the Zhonghua Minzu article reads like "The boundaries of Zhonghua minzu are fuzzy but most Chinese use the term to include all peoples within the territorial boundaries of China along with overseas Chinese integrated as one national, political, and perhaps even ideological-moral group." You can see the English and Chinese version of Zhonghua Minzu, Han Chinese articles for source. Edipedia 16:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Zhonghua Minzu article also says:

The boundaries of who is or is not a member of Zhonghua minzu have always been somewhat fuzzy and rather inconsistent. For example, whether overseas Chinese are considered part of Zhonghua minzu depends on the speaker and the context.

I ran a search for 華僑 at the zh:中華民族 article and didn't find anything. At best, the English article claims the definition is fuzzy in regards to Overseas Chinese. And at any rate, we still don't have any evidence that all the ethnic minorities in China also claim to be Descendants of the Dragon. I've never read anything about Tibetans, Mongols, Zhuangs, etc etc, claiming to be Desendants of the Dragon. It would be nice if you provide some sources. Even Taiwanese aborigines are technically included in Zhonghua Minzu because 高山人 is officially recognised as an ethnic minority by the PRC, do they also consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon? --- Hong Qi Gong 19:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Overseas Chinese if they don't consider themselves as member of Zhonghua Minzu. They can classify themselves as Asian. Ethnic minorities in China are definitely Chinese people. Edipedia 20:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but I've never said that ethnic minorities in China are not Chinese people. I'm saying that they do not consider themselves Descendants of the Dragon. Only Han Chinese do this. But I'm open to the possibility that perhaps all the other ethnic groups in China also do, if you can show us some evidence for this. --- Hong Qi Gong 22:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Only Han Chinese and certain other minority groups, but not all. That's how I understand your argument? --Sumple (Talk) 00:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this really is quite confusing. I've no idea who's arguing which point anymore. But anyway, my take on this is that Zhonghua Minzu, as its article points out, is indeed a very fuzzy term. Nevertheless the idea of Zhonghua Minzu is more inclusive rather than exclusive; the term came about precisely to unify the many minor ethnicities in China. On the other hand, the logical argument that "Zhonghua Minzu = all minorities" and "Zhonghua Minzu = Descendents of the Dragon" thus "all minorities = Descendents of the Dragon" does not stand. It's a cultural concept that just cannot be disected with this kind of hard logic. The fact is that "Descendents of the Dragon" is clearly a Han concept, stemming from the myths of the Han ancestors. The fact that DotD is considered synonymous with Zhonghua Minzu only goes to show the cultural dominance of Han chinese within the people, the culture and the concept of Zhonghua Minzu. The other ethnic groups are only as DotD as they accept and are integrated with the Han culture. Uly 01:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Sumple - Where I'm coming from is this: I know that Han Chinese refer to themselves as Desendants of the Dragon. There may be some ethnic minority groups in China that also do this, I'm not sure. But I'm doubting that all the ethnic minority groups in China do this. What Edipedia seeks to do is to say that all of Zhonghua Minzu consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon. In doing so, he would be including people like the Mongols, the Zhuangs, the Tibetans, even the Russian and Uyghur minorities in China, because they are all included in Zhonghua Minzu. There are 55 ethnic minority groups in China. I'm open to the idea that Edipedia may be correct in his assertion, but it's a claim that's going to need some evidence. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subjects of the Dragon (Emperor)

Dragon is the symbol of Chinese emperor. The true meaning of "龍的傳人" is subjects of the Dragon (Emperor). More elegantly, we use "Descendant of the Dragon". Genghis Khan, Kangxi, Qianlong and many other Chinese emperors are considered to be "真龙天子". But they are not Han Chinese. All the ethnic groups in China are subjects of verious Chinese emperors (Han Chinese emperor or other ethnic emperors). So all the ethnics in China are "Descendants of the Dragon". Beside all the ethnic groups participated in the formation of Han Chinese. They're entitled to be "Descendant of the Dragon" if they like to. It is just stupid to say that "漢族是龍的傳人。". At least, nobody say so in China.

There are historic reasons to say that Zhonghua Minzu is the "Descendant of the Dragon", not just Han Chinese. These are indicated in the Chinese version of 汉族的主体zh: 华夏族

公元前2700年夏族领袖黄帝东进，战胜华族领袖炎帝，两族达成联盟并将蚩尤灭掉，占据整个中原，华夏二族逐渐融合成华夏族。后来华夏族融合了藏缅族、吐火罗人、东夷、通古斯族、西戎、祝融氏、蚩尤后代、匈奴、鲜卑等。西汉时期，一个以华夏族为基础的新民族：汉族产生了。汉代汉族是由华夏族与东夷族、楚族融合而成的，也有部分羌族的血液。

到了现代,大陆也有很多学者，媒体称汉族和其他少数民族等中华民族为“华夏民族”。

There is nothing in zh: 华夏族 that says all of Zhonghua Minzu consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon. It just says that several different ethnic groups together make up Huaxia. --- Hong Qi Gong 17:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please pay attention to the wording. They're entitled to be "Descendant of the Dragon" if they like to. You can't exclude those who like to. Edipedia 18:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please show me where it says that ethnic groups like the Uyghur, or the Russians, or Koreans, etc etc, consider themselves Descendants of the Dragon. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Since these ethnic group are citizens of China. They are considered subjects of the Dragon. They of course have the previledge to be of Russian of Korean descent. Edipedia 18:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, it would help if you show us some sources for evidence. I have yet to see anything that says that groups like Uyghurs, or the Russians minorities, for example, consider themselves Descendants of the Dragon. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Again. You can't exclude these people from being Descendants of the Dragon, if they like to. They are Chinese citizens. What do you argue about? Edipedia 18:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence that they consider themselves Descendants of the Dragon. There's no question they belong to Zhonghua Minzu. But there's no evidence that everybody in Zhonghua Minzu consider themselves Desendants of the Dragon. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

How about you provide sources that prove ethnic minorities are not willing to be elligible to be referred as Descendants of the Dragon. Edipedia 21:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

龍的傳人 does not mean subjects of the dragon. 傳人 means passing on - e.g. DNA in the case of "descendants" --Sumple (Talk) 22:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not have to prove that. You are the one that's trying to make a claim here. --- Hong Qi Gong 05:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 乾隆是龍

Dragon is not for Han Chinese. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edipedia (talk • contribs) 2006-08-01.

The article does not say that only Han Chinese consider themselves "Descendants of the Dragon". Your revert is unjustified and illogical. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Manchus, mongols and many other ethnics claim they are "Descendants of the Dragon", because their ancestors ruled China and became the "dragon"(emperor). Dragon is a symbol for Manchu's Qing dynasty. It is quite absurd for you to claim that only Han Chinese consider themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon". Edipedia 16:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not claiming only Han Chinese refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon", and the article does not claim that either. I'm questioning that the label can be used for other ethnic groups like Russians, Koreans, Uyghurs, Tibetans, etc etc. You have not provided any evidence to show that. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the current version which seems to imply only Han ppl think they're "DotD". If you want accuracy, then, according to the HongQiGong POV, perhaps it should read "Some Chinese peoples, especially the Han Chinese, consider themselves ..." Notice the "s" on people. --Sumple (Talk) 11:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Story

Yellow Emperor is depicted as a human being. Nüwa and Fuxi are said to have snake/dragon bodies. Edipedia 15:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia, the story about the totems of the tribes of Huaxia is a well known theory. It was the orthodox theory, in fact, in the People's Republic of China for a time. This section does not say that Yellow Emperor is a dragon. And Nuwa and Fuxi are half snakes, not dragons. Please see totem for more information. --Sumple (Talk) 03:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt the accuracy of the statement "Yellow Emperor used a snake for his coat of arms. Every time he conquered another tribe, he incorporated his defeated enemy's emblem into his own. That explains why the dragon appears to have features of various animals.". Please provide source. Edipedia 18:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia, please stop removing that paragraph without discussion. I am restoring the text for the last time. Please be aware of 3RR. The story is well known. If you haven't heard of it, that is no excuse to remove stuff from articles. I never knew there was place called Madadzi. Does that justify me to blank that article? I don't think so.

Deleting things without discussion is not the right way to deal with things you don't agree with. Simply posting a message that says you don't agree with it is not discussion. Here are some external links that talk about the mythical link between the dragon and the Yellow Emperor:

[1], [2], [3]. --Sumple (Talk) 00:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

207.118.10.241 00:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National animal and Dragon disrespect?

Can someone cite me a source to the Panda being the national animal of China over the Dragon?

Also Dragons are killed all the time in MMORPGs, which are all the rage in parts of China. Would this not show a much greater disrespect than a Nike commercial? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.118.10.241 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-25 20:24:53.

Dragon not Chinese dragon? --Sumple (Talk) 01:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's the traditional video game western type dragon. Besides, it's not our role to decide what is or is not "disrespectful" here. If someone can find a notable source to say that Chinese MMORPG players are disrespecting Chinese dragons, I'd be more than willing to support inserting that in the article. --- Hong Qi Gong 05:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Dragon Types

Is Tun-Mi-Lung (Typhoon Dragon) & Yu-Lung (Carp Dragon) exist, or are they just game creations? Thanks, CarpD 8/27/06

[edit] Manchus consider themselves descendents of the dragon too

Some Han Chinese consider themselves descendents of the phoenix. This is a pointless debate. Just say "Many Chinese consider themselves descendents of the dragon." Problem solved. --128.135.60.87 09:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Dragon is a mistake of translation

There is no Dragon in Chinese culture at all. So called "Chinese Dragon" should be Loong. This is a totally different kind of animal from Dragon. Loong is a symbol of auspicious, luck and dignity.

It is the representation of Chinese God. So called "Chinese Dragon" is something like angel in western culture. Loong is the right name for this animal, and this name has already been widely used around the world. Do not say dragon again, Loong has nothing in common with Dragon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jozg (talk • contribs).

Err... but "龍" is translated as "dragon"... Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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