Talk:Chinese American

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Just deleted a paragraph concerning Chinese politicians such as Jiang Zemin having been educated in the United States. To me, this had little relevance to the content of the article.

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[edit] as Americans do in America.+

This statement: " few do not pass down the traditions to their children and prefer their offsprings to live as Americans do in America." needs some work, it seems to imply that Americans live 1 certain way and that Chineese Americans who live differently aren't really Americans. Rewording would be better.


I removed "Chinese in ***" from the "See Also" section because they are covered under "Overseas Chinese groups". It removes the clutter I see in that section.

This really has nothing to do with Chinese-Americans

Many non-caucasian American citizens suffer similar mistreatment simply because of the color of their skin or their religion. For example, Japanese American were locked up in internment camps despite they were American citizens sworn to be loyal to the USA. Many Islamic American citizens were attacked by other Americans after the September 11 terrorist attack. Despite anti-discrimination laws in the USA, racial inequality still goes on everyday. The only comforting thought is that the victims can sue in the court of law if they survive.

Also I have problems with the ethnicity/politics distinction. Many Chinese-Americans try to make a clean separation between ethnicity and politics, but many do not. Many of the political leaders of Taiwan, for example, had at one point American citizenship.

The list should probably be in a separate article, List of famous Chinese-Americans, for instance. But no matter where it is, it really needs to be in alphabetical order. -- Zoe 03:12 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

You know what I found interesting? The now beleagured Taiwanese president Chen Shui-Bian (陳水扁), who is involved in a corruption and graft scandal in Taiwan, is believed to have U.S. citizenship. It is quite possible that he may flee to the United States to avoid potential prosecution, if not Japan (due to his close ties with the Japanese government). Jhung 00:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I propose to move this to Chinese American (without the dash). "Chinese" should be an adjetive used to describe the particular type of "American." "Chinese-American" sounds like a hybrid between a Chinese and an American, which is a bad representation. And for this matter, Asian-American and all the other "-American"'s should be moved to. --Jiang 06:19 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

See hyphenated American.--Ruthless4Life 10:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
"Chinese-American" should be used when it describing a noun, such as "Chinese-American students." "Chinese American" should be used when it is not be using as an adjective. AmasianCrasian 00:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

"This experience has added richness to the American experience and is a triumphant story of the pursuit of the American Dream."

This doesn't sound encyclopaedic.

I concur. I believe that term "American" should be avoided; instead, use "U.S." or "United States." "American dream" is acceptable because it refers to a particular historic era of and a concept of the United States. AmasianCrasian 00:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 美籍華人 vs. 華裔美國人

I think 美籍華人 is more common and that's what we should use. The Chinese-language wiki entry is called "美籍華人". Hong Qi Gong 15:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree the more common term should be used here. The two terms means the same thing. Unlike the equivalent English term, the two Chinese terms explicitly point out which part is nationality (國籍=美) and which part is ethnicity (族裔=華), hence flipping the two parts in the name around does not alter the meaning. Kowloonese 20:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I was the one who added the Chinese for the article, "Chinese American." I justified the term 美籍華人 for two reasons: 美籍華人 is more standard in written Chinese; and the other reason being that 美籍華人 implies a sense that is inclusive of both first-generation Chinese Americans and subsequent generations of Chinese Americans. I would also tend to side with the four-character compound, as it is less verbose (and colloquial), and four-character compounds are regarded highly in Chinese.
The term in Chinese is relevant to the article, considering the large numbers of first-generation Chinese Americans living in the United States. The term is appropriate for this entry as this is similar in significance to the Japanese terms issei and nisei.
Hmains, to fill you in and anyone else who does not have proficiency in the Chinese language, what is being discussed are two different Chinese character compounds for "Chinese American." The first one translates literally into "American registered as one of Chinese ethnicity." The second term being discussed with five characters means "an American of Chinese descendance." AmasianCrasian 00:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 蒙籍华人, "朝籍华人" "美籍華人" Terms like these are best avoided

The two terms are different. 美籍華人 stresses the ethnicity while 華裔美國人 stresses the nationality, in the sense of citizenship. Stressing ethnic groups in individual countries, such as "Chinese" Americans, "Korean" Chinese, "German" Brazilians, etc. can easily give rise to disputes. If we were to identify Americans of Chinese ancestry as "美籍華人", then we should do the same for those of Irish, British, French, Japanese, German, Korean, Ethipian, etc etc.

Furthermore, terms like 美籍華人 are sino-centric. They may be appropriate in some cases, such as articles about China, they should not be used in articles about other countries. In discussing China, which is also a multi=ethnic country, we do not use terms like "朝籍华人" to descrive Chinese of Korean ethnicity, or 蒙籍华人 for mongolian-chinese, etc.

The term is only sino-centric because... It's a Chinese term! That's the most commonly used term. It's used in Chinese-language newspapers in the US. Hong Qi Gong 05:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why the term 美籍華人 should be avoided for the Wikipedia article titled "Chinese American." The article "Chinese American" surveys exclusively Americans of Chinese descent, not those of different nationalities. AmasianCrasian 00:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we avoid attaching Chinese translations like these in the English version. Debates on proper translations could be left to the Chinese Wikipedia. The Chinese versions do not contain English translations of 美籍華人 or 華裔美國人, and there is no reason to attach foreign translations of English terms here, Those are more properly handled in the Wiktionary.

If the editors insist on keeping the Chinese, I strongly argue in favor of 華裔美國人 which is closest in meaning to Chinese American (US Citizen of Chinese descent). The term 美籍華人 means a Chinese person who has US citizenship, but stresses the Chineseness, not the fact that the person is a citizen of the US. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unispace (talk • contribs).

  1. Firstly, 美籍華人 is more common usage and the Chinese Wikipedia uses this term.
  2. Secondly, who is to say that stressing "Chineseness" is not better? Many first or even second generation Chinese Americans would probably prefer that.
  3. Thirdly, the Chinese version of the article should have an English translation of the term. In fact, I'll go add it myself.
  4. And finally, we could just simply include both terms and put the disagreement to rest. Hong Qi Gong 06:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with HongQiGong. Not only is 美籍華人 more formal and more appropriate for encyclopedia usage, but the Chinese Wikipedia uses 美籍華人. I feel that if term is to be kept, 美籍華人 should be entry for the sake of consistency. 美籍華人 is used commonly in Mainland China and Hong Kong, while 華裔美國人 is commonly used in Taiwan. I don't see why a Chinese term shouldn't be added; the Japanese American Wikipedia article has issei and nisei (in Chinese symbols/kanji) definitions. AmasianCrasian 18:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Jiang - is there a reason you do not want to include both of the terms? Or why did you edit out 華裔美國人 after I added it? Hong Qi Gong 06:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The Chinese Wikipedia uses 美籍華人, which is more standard in Mainland China and Hong Kong. If this term is to be kept, I suggest that for the sake of consistency to keep it 美籍華人.
sorry, I didn't notice the change....i just saw the template missing. I've never heard of 華裔美國人 before. Do we really need to have the Chinese here? "Chinese American" is a stand-alone term in English and was not derived from the Chinese. Maybe a separate sentence introducing the Chinese terms would be better. --Jiang 21:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe 美籍華人 is a more common term since that's what I see in Chinese-language newspapers in the US. I prefer just having that one term. But some people insist on using 華裔美國人 instead. Hong Qi Gong 02:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I largely agree with the original comment that the Chinese is unnecessary. Neither of the Chinese terms are a translation of "Chinese American". the "X American" is a naming convention used by different groups in the US, the Chinese term means "American overseas Chinese". Putting the Chinese term seems a bit contrived. What's next, having a Chinese term for ABC as well? --Yuje 08:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English encyclopedia

I request that this discussion continue in English, the language of this Encyclopedia, so that all editors can know what is being discussed. Thanks Hmains 16:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I am removing the word Taiwanese on this article since whether Taiwanese American are Chinese American is controversial see Political status in Taiwan. And therefore any indication of Taiwan in this article without acknowledging the fact that Taiwanese-Chinese is a controversial issue are POV edits and therefore be removed.--Bonafide.hustla 21:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the English encyclopedia should be in English, adding Chinese translations is distracting and controversial. Likewise, entries in the Chinese encyclopedia do not need Englaish translations. THe term huayi meiguo ren in the Chinese version does not have an English translation so why in the world do we need a Chinese translation here, or elsewhere?

Jason Lee

[edit] Chinese Americans include Japanese Americans?

This is news to me. Please cite your sources.--Jiang 03:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The difinition of Japanese American includes the ability to be able to trace ancestry to... Therefore, many Chinese Americans - partially due to the mass rapes that occured in Nanking and the numerous Chinese Comfort Women used by Japanese soldiers - can trace their ancestry to Japan.--Blog Mav Rick 03:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please back this up with accurate evidence. How many of these rapes led to pregancies that were carried to term? What proportion do these children and their descendants constitute in the Chinese population? What proportion do these children and their descendants immigrated to the United States? Many? Given the number of rapes, and not counting the number of pregancies, this just cannot be true.--Jiang 03:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Americans voting democrat

I think this is actually only in the past couple of presidential elections. Actually I am not 100% sure of Chinese Americans specifically, but a majority of Asian Americans as a whole voted for Reagon and also voted against Clinton on both of Clinton's elections. But they've voted against Bush Jr. in both of his elections. Hong Qi Gong 03:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually lots of Chinese Americans voted for Dubya. -- Миборовский 19:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course. What I mean is that the majority voted against him. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure? While I don't have any hard statistics, where I live most of the Chinese American families I know voted Republican (or were likely to have voted Republican). And I live in Gay Acceptance Capital USA. Of course, it could be that most Chinese I know here are fundie Christians... -- Миборовский 23:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I'm pretty sure. The AALDEF conducted its own exit polls of the 2004 presidential election, broken down by ethnicity. It showed that 24% of Chinese Americans voted for Bush and 72% voted for Kerry[1]. Another good source of information is the PNAAPS, which also shows that Chinese Americans are more likely to identify as liberal and democrat, as opposed to conservative and republican. I don't know if the PNAAPS numbers can be found on the web, but I do I have the book The Politics of Asian Americans (a book I highly recommend as a reference book) which publishes the PNAAPS numbers and basically provides an analysis of the PNAAPS. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why was the hyphen unilaterally reinserted?

It had been removed since July 2003 (see [2]) on the perfectly valid grounds that the preferred form by members of the group in question is non-hyphenated. I also hadn't been aware of any consensus being reached on the discussion in question: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_14#unhyphenated-American cab 09:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it back until a concensus is reached. --- Hong Qi Gong 02:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ethnic groups of china

there are 56 recognized ethnic groups in china. however, when a lot of people talk about "the chinese", they are referring to the han ethnic group. "chinese americans" probably is also usually referring to members of the han ethnic group who are americans. Gringo300 04:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. There are plenty of non-Han who identify as Chinese. It's a fact that some of them migrated overseas (for example, Hui migration to Southeast Asia is well-documented; see Panthay or [3]); it's highly likely that some of them ended up in America. Unless you can find a reliable source saying that there are zero Hui, Zhuang, She, Manchu, etc. descendants living in the US and identifying themselves as "Chinese American", then stating that "Chinese Americans are Han Chinese living in the US" constitutes original research. cab 11:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think both of you are correct, but the two of you are talking about two different criterias to determine what "kind" of Chinese is Chinese American. User:Gringo300 seems to be talking about how North American society views only the Han Chinese as "Chinese", and User:CaliforniaAliBaba seems to be approaching the matter from self-identification. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation, revisited

I removed the Chinese translation because it is unecessary and distracting. If we started adding translations for all types of Americans (Japanese, Korean, Indian, Vietnamese, Irish, etc.) we would be doing our readers a disfavor. Perhaps the wiktionary would serve that purpose. Unispace

I've added it back in because it is informative and useful. I think all the other types of Americans ought to have similar translations, if applicable. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a multi language dictionary. Adding translations of this nature serves no useful purpose. Furthermore, the term does not derive from Chinese. And the english word "chinese" is very broad in scope, referring to a political entity, as in (People's Republic of China/Republic of China), a geographical region (as used during the Manchu and Mongolian empires to describe part of the region under their control, the Han ethnic group, etc. Therefore, I recommend that we avoid adding translations, especially controversial translations, unless necessary to help clarify the English meaning. Unispace
Whether or not the term derived from Chinese is irrelevant. The translation is the equivalent term used in Chinese. And most Chinese-related articles here on the English Wikipedia have translations of terms. Furthermore, whether or not "Chinese American" is or should be a geo-political entity, at the very least, is debatable. Not to mention, that is also irrelevant to the fact that the translation is just that - a translation. --- Hong Qi Gong 05:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


Adding translations will just add to the diffulties we already have, especially with controversial articles. Regarding the "Chinese American", there is already enough controversy over the English text. If you want to debate Chinese terminology,please do so on the Chinese wiki.

And the Chinese term 美籍华人 is not the equivalent of Chinese-American. I have therefore deleted it. There is a more accurate translation (中国血统的美国人）, but it would serve no useful purpose to start adding translations to English entries. They could be linked, however to articles as interlanguage links.

--- Diplomate 06:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The translation is useful, so I have re-added it. And you will notice that most Chinese-related topics on the English Wikipedia have translations for terms. Also, 美籍華人 is the common Chinese term for Chinese Americans. This is the term used by Chinese-language newspapers in the US. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Adding personal translations is not useful and only distracts from the English. Furthermore, translating this entry as 美籍華人 is not very accurate. Granted, some Chinese citizens, and the Chinese government use that term for political purposes, in order to promote the notion that citizens of the United States of Chinese descent should serve their so-called "motherland". But from the American point of view, Chinese-Americans are US citizens, just like Americans from other backgrounds. If you insist in sticking translations in this article, and if the Wikipedia community supports such practices, then I suggest you use the term "中国血统的美国人", which is much closer to the meaning of Chinese American as used in the United States. But I strongly recommend against this practice or the English Wikipedia could be overloaded with translations of every term that relates to China, France, Russia, or any other country. I also note that the Chinese Wikipedia does not contain English translations for terms that relate to the United States, or French for France related topics. So let us focus on the content of the articles and forget about adding translations. After all, this is not a dictionary.
As I've kept reiterating, 美籍華人 is the term commonly used in Chinese-language newspapers in the US. It is also the name of the article in the Chinese Wikipedia. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
As I explained on several occasions, the English term "Chinese American" is not the same as the Chinese term "美籍華人". The fact that a given Chinese term is used in certain Chinese-language newspapers in the US or elsewhere is irrelevant. There is indeed an article entitled "美籍華人" in the Chinese Wikipedia, but there is considerable controversy as to who is included in that category of persons, ie "Han" people, all ethnic groups in the PRC, or any US citizen with Han surnames, etc. Fortunatelly, nobody has attempted to add English translations to such terms in the Chinese Wikipedia.

If there is a consensus that Chinese translation need to be included for all English articles relating to China, even indirectly, than we would have to establish a mechanism for assuring accurate translations. "美籍華人" is certainly not accurate for this article, I have therefore deleted it. --- Unispace 25 August 2006

Your contention with 美籍華人 is not so much that it's inaccurate. The term conveys American citizenship. Your contention is really that you think the emphasis on 華人 vs. American citizenship is incorrect. The fact that 美籍華人 is a commonly used term makes it very relevant, and more relevant than what you think is emphasized in the term. In fact, 美籍華人 is more accurate than 華裔美國人 because it is specific on citizenship. I'm not sure what your concern is with the ambiguity of what ethnicities of people are included in this group. The same ambiguity exists with or without a Chinese translation of the name of the article, and whether or not that translation is 美籍華人. And also, there are English translations on the Chinese version of the article. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

美籍華人 is an accurate translation for this article. There fore I have added it back in. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I also wanted to add - in the face and availability of a commonly used Chinese term as a translation for something like "Chinese American", editors' personal opinions that these translations are inaccurate are basically original research. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


Granted, 美籍華人 is commonly used in Chinese media. However, that is a politicaly charged term, encouraged by governments in the PRC and Taiwan bent on creating the illusion of a worldwide "Chinese nation". There is nothing wrong with that - many goverments do similar things to promote nationalism and to gain support and cash from overseas. However, that term is substantially different in meaning and nuance from the English term "Chinese American" as used in the United States. An American would not normally use such an expression to refer to his/her compatriots of Chinese descent.

The Chinese-language papers in the USA are notorious for their ethno-centric attitude. For example, they frequently use expressions such as “中外”(Chinese and foreigners) when describing US citizens or people living in the US - - they even frequently refer to Black and White Americans as "foreigners" while Yellow Americans are "Asians" and those with any racial connection to China as 華人 (Chinese, or Hua people). We should not allow such terms to propagate in Wikipedia, especially when they are in another language, ie Chinese terms on the English Wikipedia and vice-versa. Therefore, I have deleted the inaccurate translations. It does not appear that the views expressed on either of these translations are original research. The issue is more related to political/ideological positions. It is best that we leave these translations out - they do not add value to the English article, which is already controversial enough. --- Unispace 07:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What you've said here - about the term being essentially political propaganda by the PRC and ROC governments, and determining that Chinese-language newspapers in North America are ethnocentric because of the terms they use - that would be the original research that I'm talking about. I've re-inserted the term because it is an accurate translation. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I think a wat to resolve the debate is to find some sources authored by prominent Chinese Americans and see how they translate the term "Chinese American" in Chinese. Honestly, though, it makes sense to include the original langauge terms for English translations and romanizations of Chinese names, but in this case, the English term is original while the Chinese term is a translation. Add this to the fact that many second and third generation Chinese Americans may not speak fluent Chinese if at all, and many who are fluent are not necessarily Chinese-literate, and that most of them would not describe themselves with the terms given on this page, and the "importance" of including the Chinese term seems less and less clear. Keep in mind also that they're Americans first and foremost, and that while all Chinese Americans can speak English, not all can speak Chinese. --Yuje 07:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We actually don't know that the English is an original term and that the Chinese is a translation of that. We can say with a certain amount of certainty that "Chinese American" came from "Asian American", which in turn was coined in the 60s. However, Chinese people with American citizenship had existed for at least as far back as United States v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898. The term "美籍華人" has probably existed long before the term "Chinese American".
And Chinese-language newspapers in the US do already reflect what Chinese Americans call themselves in Chinese. The people who work at these newspapers are Chinese Americans. They live and work in the US. Furthermore, Google hits yield many more hits for "美籍華人"[4] than it does for "華裔美國人"[5] or "中國血統的美國人"[6].
Also, while later generations of Chinese Americans may not speak Chinese, according to the census, more than half of the Chinese American population are, in fact, foreign-born. But Chinese fluency of Chinese Americans is irrelevant here. The article isn't written only for Chinese Americans to read. The translation is informative. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The translations are distracting and innacurate. As an American of Chinese ancestry who speaks some Chinese, I resent the term 美籍華人 because it sounds like a Chinese person who got US citizenship. US Citizens are supposed to be loyal to their country. Anyway, I edited the silly translation out.

Richard Chao —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.252.4.21 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-04 06:22:06.

The translations are useful and accurate. And your personal resentment of the term is of no importance compared to the fact that it's a commonly used term. Anyway, I have re-inserted the important translation in. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I got an email

Someone emailed me:

Hello,

Just thought I would ask you to stop adding controversial Chinese translations to the English Wikipedia. You should post Chinese on the Chinese Wikipedia. I was reading the debate about "Chinese Americans", which is interesting in English. By trying to impose Chinese translations you distract from the main article which is not helpful. If you are really interested in translating, I suggest you check out the Wiktionary, or some of the newer forks of that project. Let us keep the English Wikipedia as a useful ENGLISH encyclopedia. I welcome your feedback.

Xiuquan

To Xiuquan: I disagree that the Chinese translations distract from the main article. The translations are only a tiny portion of the article, and I feel they are useful. Most of the articles about Chinese-related articles on the English WP contain translations of terms. --- Hong Qi Gong 01:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

To HongQiGong: I disagree. The translations are distracting, and more importantly, not accurate. If the community decides that translations are essential, then we should find terms that truly reflect the original English meanings. In this case, Chinese American should certainly not be translated into "美籍華人". While the term is frequently used in Chinese language publications, it is not the same as the English term. It may be that there is no Chinese equivalent, ie that the English meaning falls between the suggested Chinese equivalents. In such cases, one should refer to an authoritative dictionary and choose the best equivalent based on context. In other words, the Wikipedia is not the place to suggest translations - to start doing this would only lead to further controversy and disputes. --- Xiuquan 09:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The translations are useful, informative, and accurate. But I'll insert 華裔美國人 also to try to put the dispute to rest. - Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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