Talk:Chinaman

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Contents 1 Vandalism 2 Origin of term 3 "Chinaman" the slang 4 "Chinaman" should be a separate page 5 Mark Twain on 'Chinaman' 6 Literal translation of China-Man?

[edit] Vandalism

User Empiredragon was responsible for putting profanity in this article and messing up the title. How do I put the title back on it from before, which is 'chinaman'? Thanks.

SEG88 00:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of term

When was this term first used?

It's not documented so far as I know; it was the generic term for a Chinese person by the early 1800s, and the word "Chinese" was more of an adjective to refer to objects and state and culture etc. It may have originated in sailor pidgin, or a derivation of Chinese-English pidgin's variation on "Chinese", i.e. "Chinee". So as with Frenchman, Dutchman etc. there is a natural form in English for the "Chinese-man", which with the pidgin form becomes Chinee-man, and so contracted to "chinaman". It remains the word - for both people and in the adjectival sense - in many Northwest Plateau and Coastal languages, from Ktunaxa to Tshilhqot'in, but does not have a derogatory sense (as indeed in English for a long time, and still so in some areas, i.e. not derogatory).

I used to think an alternative origin might be in the Chinook Jargon; where the country/concept+man formation is common (Boston man, King George man, Dutchman; nb if man+{concept} it means the male of something.); but the term was in use in California during its gold rush, and appears to have originated by usage in maritime English, which was spread to the American West and British Columbia via ships' crews; it might be certainly at that time (1780s-1790s) that it first entered the native languages of the North American Coast; but I can't speak for its date of provenance on the Atlantic Seaboard or in England; I would image it was pre-extant when Australia was settled, as it's very old. I have heard of one place in northern BC named for a (wait for it) "John Chinaman", who supposedly was an Englishman whose family had made their fortune in the China trade, or dealing china anyway, or making it or something; political correctness has renamed a lake named after him as Chinese Lake, because of the modern sensitivities towards the term.

Contrary to popular allegation it was NOT "invented by whites to degrade Chinese people with", as someone posting on UseNet railed long ago; it appears either to have been derived from English as spoken by Chinese people and/or some kind of hybrid form among peoples of the North American Pacific Coast (where true enough it may have only been borrowed from English). So that's my two bits; someone may take offence but there's a difference between how a word originates and what it comes to mean, or can become to be used for, over time. In my experience it can be and is used both ways; in older frontier or native areas it's used quite casually, without overtones of how it's taken elsewhere, and not meant derisively (unles said a certain way, as with any ethnic tag). Sorry I can't document this but it's just what I've picked up; I don't know what the OED Online says about its provenance; might be interesting.Skookum1 06:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Chinaman" the slang

If we really wanted to, I'm certain that we can find sources on both sides of the derogatory/not derogatory argument. Maybe it deserves its own article.

But I'd like to stress to the other editors that acceptance of usage hardly equates to it being not derogatory. It's historical acceptance merely reflects the rampant racism that existed in the past. Racism has not increased since the 1800s and early 1900s. The reason that it's not acceptable now is because we're more educated about racism. The racism was always there in the past. We know now that it's racist. We did not make it racist, because racism was always there.

To argue that it was not a racist term back then, would imply that there was less racism in the past, because in modern society, it is definitely a racist term. Acceptance of usage does not mean it was not racist. Hong Qi Gong 23:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Especially in China. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skookum1 (talk • contribs).

Hong Qi Gong has a fascinating theory worked out here: Words are found objects, like rocks, with set, non-alterable properties in and of themselves. Human linguistic hunter-gatherers forage around and find these objects (words) and then start using them. Sometimes the full meaning of the word isn't at first clear to them, but eventually the true nature of these unchangeable things asserts itself. Hence, his conclusion that "Chinaman" was always a racist term, but people in the past were too ignorant to see this. Society has now come to recognize the nature of the word, and put it away. Similarly, no doubt, we only now realize that it is offensive to call a woman a "dame" or a "wench." When Shakespeare has Mark Antony reply to Cleopatra: "Fare thee well, dame, whate'er becomes of me," he is obviously insulting her, because it has exactly the same meaning as when a 1930s American gangster calls a woman a "dame." Let us join hands in prayer and condemn our Elizabethan ancestors who were too ignorant to recognize the immutable properties of so many words. They used words so wrong back then, but we now use them correctly.

There is only problem with this theory, of course: It is insane. Words don't change society, society changes words. The cheapest way of gaining a false sense of superiority over another ethnic group or time period is by judging one group of cultural or linguistic practises by the standards of another. Society changes the meanings and connotations of words. The words "China" and "Man" are different though. They were never inherently offensive, and they still are not inherently offensive. If "China" and "man" were inherently racist, both words would be shunned now. They are not. "Chinaman" is not an inherently derogatory term, but it has acquired derogatory meaning by association with the history of racist treatment of the Chinese in the United States.

Let me make myself clear: "Chinaman" is an offensive term in the United States today. It was in common use in the past as a term for people of Chinese descent, but has become associated with racism against Chinese and Asians in general.

I have had my fill of mad-hatter logic from Hong Qi Gong, and no real interest in mulling over topics that are so often used to separate people rather than unite them. Hopefully someone else does, or one more corner of Wikipedia will have been absorbed by activists out to broadcast their Orwellian twisting of words and their history. Human Fetishist 20:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me reiterate - your logic basically renders nigger as harmless as well. The current wording right now is borrowed from the nigger article - that it's a derogatory term, and it was used casually in the past.

Also, your problem seems to have more to do with me personally than the articles in question. Hong Qi Gong 20:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with HF here. He seems to be making a coherent logical argument, and it's certainly not rendering "nigger" or "chinaman" as "harmless". heqs 15:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

His logic makes an important mistake that I've mentioned above already. He equates general acceptance of a word to that it was not derogatory or racist. Hong Qi Gong 16:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You were replying to Skookum1, as far as I can tell. "To argue that it was not a racist term back then, would imply that there was less racism in the past, because in modern society, it is definitely a racist term." This is quite the fallacy, as HF described. heqs 17:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

To Heqs: Inane arguments have long been part of the "Chinaman controversy"; the idea that because it was not a racist term back then somehow means there was less racism is typical of the faulty and (to me) deliberately obfuscating logic used by the tub-thumpers. Never mind that the Chinese term China+person uses the same characters as would be used if you translated China+man, the "logic" is that "chinaman" is "inherently racist". There is a response I have coming (but just haven't had the stomach to bother with yet) on his talk page concerning Chinese racism and exclusionism in my city (Vancouver) in which he announces that because I'm saying that Chinese-only condo marketing is in Chinese, that I'm being racist because English-only advertising is theoretically also exclusionary; even though long-term Chinese-Canadians all speak English, and many of my generation in fact to do not at all and also are discriminated against by the New Chinese (post HK-influx). It's a long, sorry tale, but full of the twisted logics and one-sided allegations that are par for the course in culture politics; and in my city, it's not about race and never was; it was always about culture and social differences, which are not "race" unless that word is tossed around with a loosey-goosey meaning, as it all too often is.Skookum1 17:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Skookum, I understand where you're coming from on this, just remember to try and keep cool, and not say something you might regret. heqs 17:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you get a drift of the mad-hatter logic that I've been encountering from this editor: He says that because I say "Chinaman" is not derogatory, I am also claiming "nigger" is not derogatory... Only one problem with that: I explicitly do say "Chinaman" is derogatory in contemporary US English, as is "nigger." The editor is also trying to muddy the issue by equating "Chinaman" with the more historically and emotionally loaded term "nigger." Still, it is not only a red herring, but a fallacy to claim that "nigger" was always as derogatory as it is in the US today (when used by whites). I'm old enough to state from personal experience that it wasn't, but that borders on unacceptable personal research. Skookum1 has pointed out how in other dialects and languages, the word or close cognates are still acceptable today. And obviously, between African-Americans the term has a different connotation than it does when used by whites. Again, society uses words, not the other way around. Also, look at US/English literature. To claim that "nigger" had the same social function today as it did a century ago and further would be to claim that two of the most anti-racist, anti-colonialist writers of their age (Mark Twain and Joseph Conrad) were nothing but racists. Forget their actual beliefs and their actions, they were ignorant racists because the words they used then are considered unacceptable today. But apparently those who ban The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' and Adventures of Huckleberry Finn from libraries agree with this up-is-down logic. Presumably Mein Kampf is allowed because (to my knowledge) it doesn't use the word "Chinaman" or "nigger." Who reads for meaning today? Just run the spell-checker through for banned words and it passes or fails. -- Human Fetishist 18:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, what this guy is saying (and now having lived in the Midwest for 4 years I can somewhat understand), is that the people who often use the term "Chinamen" these days aren't being intentional or ironic, just ignorant: they're usually old men (or people from very insulated areas, i.e. Northern Minnesota) just blurting out a term for whatever Asian person they see in the same way I heard a Regent of the University of Minnesota call all Asians "Oriental" and people from the Middle East "Arabians" (which would be a horse, not Arabs...)). He was a nice guy, I doubt he was that intentionally stupid, but he was old enough. Another, lesser but similar example are people who call all Asians "Chinese". --Bobak 17:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Chinaman" should be a separate page

Even though there's only two disambig items now the mutation of the main paragraph here, and the politics uderlying the word, suggests that there's a lot more that needs to be here than can be put in point-form for disambig pages. The problem is that the page will have more to do with the controversies rather than any rational discussion of the word and its various usages (racist and non-racist, historical and modern, comparisons to Chinese versions of the same phrase, comparisons to the many Chinese racist terms for other peoples etc). The problem is that that's not encyclopedic content; or could be, but for its endless politicization by defenders of Chinese racism and attackers of alleged white racism (alleged in this case, since in rural dialects around here it's still a common word used without prejudice, just as it was a century ago; no more so than saying "he's Chinese", anyway; which can and is used derisively, which is why "Asian" has become the p.c. terms in the stylebooks. Have a look at HongCouver, which I think should be deleted, for more on this kind of double-standardism....Skookum1 17:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

For now, we could just expand this article and add something like this to the top: This article is about the term. For the cricket bowling style, see Left-arm unorthodox spin, for the Danish film, see Kinamand. heqs 17:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Skookum1, no offense, but it really seems like your motivations are very biased in this case. It seems your reason for editing this article has more to do with the HongCouver and Gweilo articles. Look at your statement here:

• The problem is that that's not encyclopedic content; or could be, but for its endless politicization by defenders of Chinese racism and attackers of alleged white racism.

Nobody is trying to defend Chinese racism here. The subject hasn't been brought up and it's not even relevant. And there are no attackers here of anything. It is a statement of fact that this term is derogatory, and whether or not past usage is "neutral" is debatable, as evidenced by our disagreements here. Whatever problems you may be encountering in the HongCouver article should not have to be carried over here. Furthermore, one can very easily turn it around and say that you are "defending white racism". Should I clam that you're "defending white racism" because you disagree with me on past usage of this term? Hong Qi Gong 17:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to get you to understand that generations of non-Chinese used (and use) the term without any racist content, yet get called racist simply because someone somewhere else has decided a certain and actually rather lexically innocuous terms is racist; sure, it might be that in the US it's always been derogatory; in my area it was part of the lexicon of the Chinook Jargon, which imprinted local English heavily, such that Dutchman (meaning German), Scotchman, Boston man were equivalents and, while potentially derisive, were not necessarily. I realize you've taken the honourable stand about the noxious and ongoing term gweilo, but they're not equivalent in any way, since gweilo is lexically derisive from its roots on up and as noted china+man (Chung ren? - or am I mixing Cantonese and Mandarin) is in fact the Chinese term for a Chinese person. Chinee-man is the source of Chinaman; which the afore-cited politicians and their associated media hacks around here publicly announced was "invented by white people to humiliate Chinese people with" (that's a quote, either from VYW or JK), when in fact it's a derivative of Chinese-English pidgin and may be a result of Chinese attempts to say Chinese-man i.e. chineeman. It spread into maritime trade jargon and thence into North America, Australia, Africa and Europe, and was not used derisively (there were other words and phrases for that, notably chink and yellow dog/bastard) And, again as I've also noted, it has come into the regular lexicons of several Native American/First Nation languages without any derisive imputation at all; and that is also reflected in local native-anglo patois/argots, such as in my area, especially by natives. "Hey boston!" and "Hey chinaman!" in my area have the same tone, one no more derisive respectively; and they are often, in fact, heard in the town in question; and these are natives using them; shama is REALLY bad, and any variation of the last vowel makes it WORSE). One of the most remarkable recent usages I heard was from an elderly mixed-blood lady who said about someone back up in town "that damned chinaman told me xxx"; she herself was part Chinese, part Japanese, part Norwegian, part Irish, and part St'at'imc and part something else; I asked her if she thought the word was offensive (without the "damned" modifier) and she said "no, not at all". No more so than saying "that damned Irishman told me xxx"; she was quite old so probably spoke Chinook, but I never asked her for more (it's impolite to pester elders with questions in native/backcountry culture). Sure, we can use "Frenchman" or "Dutchman" very derisively; but we can do the same with "Chinese" equally as much as using "Chinaman". The whole politicizing of this word is, to me, a byproduct of anti-imperialist/anti-European analyses and is not rooted in history; more rooted in people's need to find things to complain about how other people talk about them. And all the more ironic because Chinese itself as a language has not purged itself of its own racist and sexist content.Skookum1 18:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

1. You keep insisting that it was not used derisively in the past because of the roots of the word. Yet I've pointed out to you that "nigger" is simply rooted in the Spanish and Portuguese word for the colour black. The roots of a word does not dictate how the word is used.
2. That there are people who consider the word not derogatory, whether they be white or Chinese (read: [1]), or any other races, does not conclude that the word is not derogatory. For every person who considers the word not derogatory, there is someone else, and quite possibly more than one, who considers the word derogatory indeed. At best this makes the derogatory nature of the word debatable.
3. That the Chinese language has racist terms does not justify the existence of racist terms in the English language, and vice versa. Every language has racist terms, and there are racists of every colour and creed. It makes no sense whatsoever to point and say, "look, the Chinese language has racist terms, therefore it's a political byproduct of anti-European analyses to point out the racist nature of certain English words." Racist terms in any languages are detestable.

Hong Qi Gong 18:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

And overblown allegations of racism and racist language are also detestable. The HISTORICAL FACT and cultural reality is that Chinaman was not coined as a racist term, was used widely WITHOUT racist overtones (including by Chinese themselves) and in direct-translation terms and the characters that would be used to render it is INDISTINGUISHABLE from "Chinese person" (except for the gender qualification). To say that it was ONLY racist is entirely FALSE. Is it racist that the Ktunaxa and Nuxalk have it in THEIR languages? No - because they have no other word for "Chinese". Figure it out; it's the same with at least some regional/dialect usages of English. Your argument reminds me of the logic that, since "fanny" is obscene to the English it's inherently obscene throughout the English-speaking world. This is nonsense; and so are your arguments and ongoing counter-allegations (I'll get to the issue about the Chinese-only condo marketing on your talk page; I broke out laughing when I read what you wrote - Vancouver is a city with FOUR Chinese-language dailies and Chinese-language ads appear regularly in the English-language ones; and the reporter(s) who broke that story were themselves Chinese-Canadian, as was a realtor who blew the whistle on the discriminatory sale)Skookum1 18:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, you're mistaking a term's acceptance as that it is not derogatory.

And my point remains about the Chinese-language advertising of the condos. What if condos were to be only advertised in English? Does that not exclude the Chinese? Does it not also exclude Latinos, French speakers, etc etc? You claim that the practice is racist, but really it's no more insidious than any ads that do not appear in all languages possible. So there are four Chinese-language dailies, and how many English-language dailies are there...? Hong Qi Gong 18:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Two, both owned by the same company...and for English-only advertising to be racist, that would assume that the French, Latinos, and non-Chinese speaking Chinese and other Asians do not speak English; which they do. What's remarkable about the "New Chinese" (post-influx) is that many of them have no intention of learning English any more than necessary, even to the point of demanding government services; and of course their disdain for the original Chinese-Canadian population as well as their historic Toishan-variant dialect. One agitator even wanted Mandarin to be made an official language in BC since they "shouldn't have to learn English to live here". Uh-huh. So, if I and 500,000 other anglophones moved to Shanghai and started demanding the right to take part in politics, demanding separate school boards, opening anglo-only shopping centres, saying that they had no reason to ever learn Chinese, how would that be received? Uh-huh. As racism, that's how; of course anything white people do or say is racist if you need it to be, isn't it? And you said that my comment about our own culture being "overwhelmed" was a racist statement; so again, how would the Chinese people respond if the population of Beijing or Shanghai went from 10-15% white to over 50% white in less than 20 years? Oh right - there never was 10-15% white in either city, was there? - because what few there were were either slaughtered (Boxer Rebellion) or expelled (Chinese civil wars/WWII).

And my point about the condo sale is very clear; English advertising is accessible to anyone who meets the citizenship requirements, i.e. the ability to speak one of the two official languages. But those condos weren't even advertised in Vancouver's four Chinese dailies; they were marketed exclusively to overseas Chinese. The reporter (Chinese-Canadian) who broke the story was the one who brought up how racist it was, which of course got denial after denial from Chinese cultural organizations; but also some justifications about "people wanting to live around other people who speak the same language and have the same culture"; justifications that if WE were to use them, would be called racist. This kind of posturing and wheedling we're all to used to here, and it irks Chinese who have acclimatized to Canadian society (call them "assimilated" if you wish; my family was assimilated too - French-Irish and Norwegian - and I'm no less human for it). The assumption that Canada should bend over backwards to accommodate a whole civilization is increasingly grating on the public psyche here; multiculturalism is an official policy, not a popular one; and many of the new groups (including some new Chinese) say they only want to be Canadian, to share in a common identity; not a fractured, hyphenated one. But the diehards, one of whose terms for our city (translated from the Chinese) is the utterly colonialist "New China City", are adamant in their resistance to "assimilation". Despite all the high-sounding talk when WE opened our doors to the HK influx that they didn't want to transplant their culture but were willing to adapt to Canadian society; that tune changed pretty quick once they were here, that's for sure; the worst of it, as long-time Chinese Canadians will often complain, is that the resistance to Canadian ways has increased overall resentment against ANY Chinese; including people who are utterly Canadian by culture. And it's not just whites who feel this way; it's Filipinos, Punjabis, Persians, First Nations and others who have experienced the same. Everything from driving habits/culture to pushing people off the sidewalk or aside in the transit system "because that's our culture, it's how we are in China". So what? If I go to China, I'm expected to respect Chinese customs; say the same thing back (that they should respect our culture) and the response is "oh, but that's racist" or even "you don't have a culture"; something that's all too familiar to my First Nations friends, as that's what they were told. So don't go calling me a racist for daring to speak out about the cultural arrogance and outright racism implicit in the Chinese-only policies in workplaces, shopping and housing....free speech, after all, is part of my culture, even if it's not part of China's.Skookum1 22:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This debate isn't really getting anywhere - what you guys need to do is write the article, citing sources, about historical and present use of the word, and let the published and verifiable info do the talking, even if those sources might happen to contradict eachother. heqs 18:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with what you're saying. A seperate article would be much better as it can incorporate opposing views. But it's questionable whether or not there's actually enough content for a seperate article. And there are also other articles I'm more interested in spending my energy on. At the very least, I want the current definition to reflect that the term is definitely racist in modern society, and that it was debatable whether or not it was racist in the past. The existence of opposing views on historic usage calls for that. To conclude that it was definitely not racist in the past is dishonest, when there are people who would disagree with that. Hong Qi Gong 19:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes Hong Qi Gong, a separate article tracing the history of the term would be quite interesting, and would hopefully help to clear up this whole debate, as long as it's done honestly, and not made a soapbox for one point of view or another. When and where did the term start? At what point did it become unacceptable in common usage? Where is it still used without derogatory intent? The Twain quote below might belong in the article.

Skookum1, I agree with a lot of what you say, but hope you don't let your (apparent) anger get the best of you. We're all human, and have our good and bad points. Cultural chauvinism of the type you describe is certainly not a trait unique to the Chinese. There are bound to be clashes when large cultural groups encounter each other. Let's hope the more moderate voices prevail.

I lived in Asia for several years, and married into an Asian family. While I experienced cultural bigotry, ignorance and chauvinism (and even occasional outright racism) over there, I was usually able to take this as a small taste of what minorities have historically experienced over here. And the good I encountered over there certainly far outweighed the bad. Human Fetishist 23:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Human Fetishist, we don't see eye-to-eye on some things, but I appreciate what you've said here about what minorities have experienced as far as racism is concerned. Hong Qi Gong 04:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

My "anger" - polemical language - was because of being called a racist simply for speaking out in defense of my own culture, which Hong Qi Gong was imputing was a racist argument; and yeah, there's definitely a widespread disctontent here, disclaimed by our government and denoucned by our media monopolies who "boost" multiculturalism at every turn, while also concocting a fictional "Canadian identity" to overlay the old regionalities and the older form of "being Canadian"; we've been "revised" in order to "help the new cultures feel welcome"; to let them be whatever it is they need to be, while short shrift is given to our own. And as I said, even my First Nations (as Native Americans are known in Canada) friends sympathize and also experience the same pushing-aside that has taken place here; the idea that our culture isn't worth respecting. Uh-huh. It's pretty much unique to Vancouver and Toronto, and in Vancouver's case it also involves the older pre-influx Chinese, who find themselves equally marginalized and no longer as integrated with the rest of us, because of official multiculturalism. We just used to be Canadians; now we're a bunch of friggin' hyphens.Skookum1 00:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What Skookum1 is referring to is the exchange we had over at my Talk page. This took place after my first edit of this article. Apparently to Skookum1, "speaking out in defense of his own culture" means he should dismiss disagreements as "Chinese cultural insecurity" and apparently my ethnicity automatically means foreigness to him. For those who are interested, you are welcome to read and judge for yourself. By the way, I've never told him he was racist. I only think he's biased against Chinese people.

And I must seriously admit that I'm having a difficult time assuming good faith here. It seems that Skookum1 is more concerned about the racism he's experienced from the Chinese people that are "overwhelming" (his own word) "his" community, and this is the motivation for his editing of this article.

Skookum1, I'm not sure what kind of response you expect from me with your repetitive mention of Vancouver's racial tension. Should I just agree with everything you've said because you think you've experienced racism? Or maybe you want me to share with you my own stories of racism? Since you keep mentioning the racism you're experiencing, should I also attempt fruitlessly to count the number of times I've been called a chink, a Chinaman, etc etc? The number of times I've been told to "go back where I came from"? The number of times a random stranger greets me with "ching chong ching chong"? Would that make my arguments more solid in your eyes?

With all due respect: get over it. I've already said on multiple occasions that I don't condone racism in any form. Like I've said, I've never even been to Vancouver. I didn't call you a gwailo. I didn't deny you a job. I don't represent the entire Chinese population in North America, and I certainly don't represent the Chinese community in Vancouver. Your incessant mention of Vancouver is pointless to me. I can't answer for what some other Chinese person did. I can only answer for and represent myself. Should I express my frustration to you that white people have been racist against me?

Hong Qi Gong 03:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This really is getting nowhere, Skookum seems like he'll go into his rhetoric no matter what you say, even if you say something that he agrees with. He doesn't listen to anything and doesn't seem to want to reason with anyone. Chinaman is now considered offensive, period, regardless of how the term was coined. The same can be said of Negro, Oriental, Spanish (as a reference to Latinos and Latinas), Whitey, A-rab, and similar offensive words which may or may not have been coined with malicious intent. It matters not, as they are now considered offensive. You don't really have to agree with it, but it deserves mentioning.Bethereds 03:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Twain on 'Chinaman'

"They are a kindly disposed, well-meaning race, and are respected and well treated by the upper classes, all over the Pacific coast. No Californian gentleman or lady ever abuses or oppresses a Chinaman, under any circumstances, an explanation that seems to be much needed in the East. Only the scum of the population do it--they and their children; they, and, naturally and consistently, the policemen and politicians, likewise, for these are the dust-licking pimps and slaves of the scum, there as well as elsewhere in America." -- Mark Twain, Roughing It, 1870–71

What a white-supremacist racist! He said "Chinaman!" Human Fetishist 21:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure how many times I've said this already - acceptance of usage does not mean a word is not derogatory. Hong Qi Gong 03:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well then, I guess Skookum1 is 100% right. Guess it serves me right for trying to reason with a guy with a clearly offensive, stereotypically Oriental user name like "Hong Qi Gong." Just because you accept usage of it doesn't mean it's not derogatory, Hong. Pearls before swine... What a waste of time. Human Fetishist

You're welcome to write an article on my username to say that it's a derogatory term if you can find some sources to support the claim. Hong Qi Gong 05:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"Hong" is a derogatory term for a Hong Konger, and also has made its way into regional English in my area as a generic ethnic slur. Interestingly, once again, it was coined by Chinese-Canadians rather than white ones, although became adapted by the latter. So while it may not be derogatory in Chinese, it certainly is in English. You might want to change it. (Skookum's not derogatory, btw)Skookum1 08:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Got a source for that information? Hong Qi Gong 08:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Try HongCouver; I believe it was the most recent place I've seen it; where, once again, the suposedly racist term was invented by Chinese-ethnics themselves; "Honger", a harsher form, has a connotation (to anglos) something like "booger" (from "hanger", dried snot dangling from one's nose). If it's not on HongCouver or Talk:HongCouver any more (various recent edits, and not just by me), it'll be easy enough to find later today; but I just got up.Skookum1 15:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC) it's not there anymore so must have been edited out; I'll check around as it's been on one of the Vancouver pages recently; I'm sure you could just email S.U.C.C.E.S.S. and ask them what they think of the term, although they'll probably blame it on white people "inventing" it. (United Chinese Community Enrichment Services Society); but "Hong" and "Honger" for sure are nasty words (in English). So therefore they must ALWAYS have been nasty, huh?Skookum1 15:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. But I could always "use the word amongst myself with an ironic sense". Hong Qi Gong 15:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean S.U.C.C.E.S.S.? I find the all this about 'hongcouver' rather amusing, as I always thought it was meant to carry positive connotations, ie. growth and... success (no joke). heqs 16:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I know; it was, as noted by the NGS, a "brag" about the "takeover" not the takeover of HK by the PRC, but the takeover of Vancouver by HKers; the swagger in those early days has been muted, and was actually advised against by the then-Lieutenant-Governor of British Columbia the Hon. David Lam. But once it became the headline, front cover in fact, of the NGS, S.U.C.C.E.S.S. and the usual coterie of degreed-but-uneducated "intellectuals" denounced it as a "racist term invented by white people to humiliate Chiense people with" yadayada ad nauseam. Fact is, as noted in the Hongcouver article, "we" only ever used it with distaste, as we didn't need our city renamed to flatter or condemn any new group; especially when the newcomers evinced a clearly-made racist attitude towards non-Chinese, and still do. But the myth is that HongCouver, like Chinaman, is an insult to Chinese people; that it was their own who coined the terms they just can't deal with......denial is a powerful pyschological force, and also inbuilt into the political-correctness newspeak-think. Have a look at History of Chinese immigration to Canada and you'll see much of the same crap repeated, although I'll be working on that one, as also on History of British Columbia; thing is so many people are brainwashed to the "official" view now that no one reads the source materials, only the modern publications which ape the positions of SUCCESS and the CCNC. And I do find it amusing that HongQiGong has asked me for a cite for 'Hong' being derisive; that's another one that SUCCESS doesn't like; partly because it addresses the discrimiation against the long-standing Chinese-Canadian community by the newcomers for being "bananas"; "Hong" is the counter-insult.Skookum1 21:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)I have similar passages to Twain's from various contemporary writings in BC, although I recently sold a goldmine for that stuff Early Vancouver by the City Archivist Skit Matthews, p.1937, which was full of first-person narratives of the times and events in question (rare book, needed groceries and the set was worth $200...); but I still have my Morley and other early histories which give examples (see refs on BC History page); these examples SUCCESS doesn't want to admit exist, or are worth anything because the sources are white. Yeah, right....Skookum1 21:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC) The most derisive form using Chinaman, btw, i.e. when it was used derisively, was "John Chinaman", which was a generic grouping,not an individual; and individual Chinese in editorial writeups and such were often simply referred to as "Johns", or "John did this". That, no doubt, must be considered "inherently racist"; but then so would be the Vietnamese term for Americans - "Joe", "Hey, Joe". And since Chinese names were largely unpronounceable to speakers of non-tonal languages "John" was a generic, as with "Joe". Conversely, during the post-Anti-Oriental Riots strike by Chinese house servants and gardeners in 1907, well-to-do Vancouver ladies bemoaned in print the loss of their "beloved chinamen" and their indispensable skills and household knowledge; but in newspeak this is simply more "evidence of endemic racism", even though the statement was in fact a flattering one, and the Chinese were respected by their employers, so much so that hiring a non-Chinese gardener or cook was unthinkable, not for monetary/payscale reasons but because of the skill levels, and the dedication; these weren't "dirty jobs white people didn't want to do"; these were jobs white people wouldn't hire other white people for. BTW if you ever get a chance to visit the Nordic Museum in Ballard, Seattle, or for that matter Ellis Island in NYC, you'll find out that Norwegian maids were paid half what Irish maids were paid, and forced to live in small closets and taken sexual advantage of by their employers; it's not just non-whites who were underpaid and exploited in North America; another big myth that needs debunking. I look forward to the day when Chinese culture and society is as self-critical and self-examining as European/British/North American societies have become; but by the look of the cant kicking around the press, the net and Wiki, it'll be a while yet.....Skookum1 21:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Skookum, you really seem to be stuck in this mentality that all Chinese people think alike, that we all share the same opinions, and that each Chinese person should answer for what any other Chinese person did. Not only that, you are also stuck in the mentality that the Chinese are always going to be foreign. This is especially evident in your statement that you "look forward to the day when Chinese culture and society is as self-critical and self-examining as European/British/North American societies have become; but by the look of the cant kicking around the press, the net and Wiki, it'll be a while yet...". This is why I think it's pointless to try to reason with you. Hong Qi Gong 02:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but you accused me or racism simply for recounting a scandal involving Chinese exclusionary business practices, i.e. racist practices, in Vancouver, suggesting even that English-only language advertising discriminated against Chinese, French, Latinos and others; but there are plenty of Vancouver Chinese who do not even speak Chinese well (these are the descendants of the original group, not the "so-called" (as you put it) "New Chinese". What you've essentially come up with here is a reason to disregard all the evidence I've put forward, without actually dealing with the evidence; and you've treated me in the mode "all white people think alike"; deal is I was raised to be a liberal, tolerant accepting Canadian and was actually very pro-Oriental in many ways growing up, partly because the town I came from as a rich Asian heritage (Chinese and Japanese) and also because I took the time to study East Asian history and philosophy; but like so many others here my views have been hardened by the negative treatment and slander directed against the history of the place I've grown up in, which isn't anywhere near as ugly or single-minded as the simplistic ethnocentric histories consistently paint it. My family only moved here in 1946, in fact, but I learned about ALL the cultures here in BC, not just my own group (which happens to be multi-ethnic, albeit white); I didn't focus on the persecution of the Irish, French and "Scandahoovians" in the course of gaining an identity; but when you're pigeonholed and insulted and you have to read rank distortions of history concocted to flatter a newly-arrived and overtly wealthy group, it's pretty nauseating. I'm not expecting you to reason with me, because many of your own responses have shown no reason at all; only reaction and redirection and evasion. I'm not saying it's because you're Chinese; I'm saying it's because you're unwilling to consider that "Chinese versions" of my province's history should be challenged as UNTRUE.Skookum1 07:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the last thing that I wrote in the section above this one. Once again, I did not accuse you of being racist. I only think you are biased against Chinese people - not for what you've wrote regarding what you perceive as discrimination from the so-called "New Chinese", but for the comments you've left in your edits. They are borderline racist.

• I look forward to the day when Chinese culture and society is as self-critical and self-examining as European/British/North American societies have become; but by the look of the cant kicking around the press, the net and Wiki, it'll be a while yet..... [2]
• "Celestial" is in reference to "subject of the Son of Heaven" and is somewhat akin on context to "British subject", and was meant in a complimentary, even respectful fashion; but Chinese insecurities demand that it be pronounced "racist". Fix your own language's many racist and sexual biases before demanding other cultures kowtow to your need to rewrite history to suit yourselves. [3]
• it was a racist response to racist times; natural enough, but don't pretend it's not based in racism and the attached insecurity; the clue here is that word "humiliation", apparently one of the driving forces of the Chinese cultural ego. [4]
• gag; more sinothink newspeak distortions of reality; gag, gag, gag [5]

--- Hong Qi Gong 14:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The gag, gag, gag is because of the constant sense of vomit from the lies and distortions found on sinocentric history pages; not because I"M racist, but because they are. And as for what you perceive as discrimination from the so-called "New Chinese" you'd better give your head a shake; it's not only me, it's the "old Chinese" who "perceive" this discrimination as well as members of other non-New Chinese ethnicities. I'm only the messenger. East Indians, Filipinos and Afro-Canadians have all experienced the same biases and discriminations, whether it's at Yaohan or Aberdeen or in the workplace or housing. Accusing me of "borderline racism" for pointing out that the New Chinese are more than just borderline racist is just doublespeak, and it's tiresome. Gag, gag, gag. And if "face" weren't a principle in Chinese culture, it wouldn't have had to have been mentioned; but it's not from me that the term "humiliation" keeps on being wielded like it was a crime against humanity. One postscript: at the height of the influx, a certain Chinese zillionaire who can't be named for obvious reasons got five-sheets drunk at an uppercrust party in what are called the Endowment Lands, in front of members of Vancouver's establishment and "moneyed intelligentsia" (patrons of the arts, charities etc; mostly white at the time (mid-80s) but not entirely; he got very loud and started yelling about how "we've taken over, you stupid fools. We're going to make slaves out of all you!!" (this from more than one person who was at that party); oh, and there's the off-the-cuff comments you hear about how stupid white people were for selling their country out from underneath them, and how this is a Chinese colony now, and how "lazy and shiftless" native-born Canadians (of any race) are; there's so much more that you cannot comprehend, from wherever else on the continent you are at present; my Japanese-Canadian and Indo-Canadian and First Nations and Latino friends and acquaintances have all the same experiences and have heard all the same crap; and all of this is common conversation at the city's thousands of coffee shops. Yup, borderline racist all right, as judged by a closed mind, just for daring to tell the truth. Par for the course...and we're so used to hearing it now we just don't care...given that the implicit racism of those denouncing us, all we can do is either grin or spit.Skookum1 15:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I keep telling you and you can't seem to grasp this - I or any random Chinese person can't answer for what some other Chinese person do. Some Chinese person called you a gweilo or denied you a job, or some fat cat Chinese guy got drunk and acted like a fool, etc etc. So now you're leaving comments saying, for example, that humiliation is one of the driving forces of the Chinese cultural ego. This is why I say I think you're biased. You've attributed all these things that you've mentioned to Chinese people in general. What do the above-mentioned incidents have to do with all the other Chinese people that have never done anything wrong against you? Did the entire global Chinese population get together just to call you a gweilo?

How do you expect other editors to assume good faith when you're deleting sentences in articles because they're what you call "sinothink", or when you dismiss certain edits as "Chinese insecurities"? I'm done with this conversation. But let me remind you one thing - Wikipedia is not a soapbox to vent your frustration. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

How can one reason with someone who bullheadedly leans all the way to the political far-right? Can't be done I reckon. Obviously he/she perceives all the Chinese, as a mass group, as a threat and he/she is here on Wikipedia to settle some vendettas against Chinese. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.191.20.175 (talk • contribs).

No; I'm preventing you from getting away with perpetrating your lies about supposed discrimination built-in to words that it's not built into. And I'm not right-wing, not in the slightest; what's right-wing is the attitude that every word that white people use for Chinese is inherently bigoted, as is anything they say. But I see Hong just couldn't keep his mouth shut; he must have missed me giving him an earful of TRUTH on his talk page. Hi Hong (now in my dialect of English, that IS a racist term but apparently you're comfortable with it, so who cares?). Anyway, be advised: white people are sick and fed up of having Chinese people rewrite our history and redefine our language for us. Either tell both sides of the story or be prepared to have your lies challenged, as they should be.Skookum1 08:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts, but unfortunately, that IP address is not me. Whoever he or she is, it looks like he probably followed you here from your beloved Hongcouver article[6]. --- Hong Qi Gong 09:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a casual browser of Wikipedia but not yet a full-time contributor (I'm getting turned off at this concept very quickly). I get a laugh at some of the (yawn) angry tirades by this guy as well as some of the non-related ongoing disagreements and disputes on other articles over what to call or label something.

What I wanted to say is this: If "Chinamen" or other immigrants arrive poor, they are perceived as passive and with utmost condescension. If "Chinamen" immigrants come with money and/or advanced education, they are perceived with much envy and disgust and as power-hungry. Quite the dilemma. Whites in the US (don't know about Canada) are always boasting about competition as the way to go in society, just as long they remain on top and the winner (as US society is divided between supposed "winners" and "losers"). But if they lose - or perceive to have lost - to minorities (especially by "weak" Asians), then they start complaining of unfair competition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.195.71.136 (talk • contribs).

That still doesn't qualify the MYTH that the word is "inherently" or "obviously" racist or discriminatory, and avoids the point that it was in common usage WITHOUT DERISIVE MEANING for a very, very long time; and remains so in some areas, and also in other languages (First Nations and Native American languages). And anger is really the only response to seeing so many lies and distortions posted over and over again, and the same circular, childish justifications for "waaaaha, we were oppressed" and general falsifications of Canadian history; the whole mess of the way CAnadian history has been systematically bad-mouthed by Chinese propagandists smacks to me of the same alternate-history propagandization of Tibet (see Talk:Tibet). There are too many myths and outright LIES about BC and Canadian history that ethno-specific historical whining gets away with; and this being a consensual environment, if there's another side to the story it's going to get told. Whether YOU like it or not, and no matter how much you can point to SOME white people having behaved this or that way; the point is that Chinaman, Celestial and Oriental were NOT coined as racist terms, unlike more overtly racist terms like gweilo and "chink"; that they have been decided to NOW be considered racist does not mean that they always were, which is Hong's contention; as for the shoddy historical claims on so many other Chinese-Canadian-relevant pages (and not just in Wiki), they should be something that conscientious Chinese/Chinese-CAndaian historical types should consider as having merit, not dismissing out of hand on the basis of some long-gone argument about envy and resentment. Sounds to me like you've only read the modern rehashes, and none of the original materials.....Skookum1 20:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

This my last time I post here since talking to you is getting me nowhere and nothing useful and constructive is to be learned anyway, and you'll just respond with another boring, repetitve, and longish diatribe after diatribe. Hitler was denied entry into art school so he hated the Jewish people, Timothy McVeigh didn’t make the cut for the elite US Army Rangers so he hated the US federal government for good, you couldn’t get a lousy job at a hotel so you blame the Chinese (or "Chinamen" in seemingly less offensive terms). Sounds to me like a making of a disgruntled white guy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.195.71.136 (talk • contribs).

Anonymous loser-poster: you're getting nowhere because you're refusing to consider that the much-cherished myths of Chinese history in Canada might actually be wrong; I've yet to see one of the people calling me an angry white men, in various words, actually address the inconsistences and distortions that are stated matter-of-fact, uncited, on so many Wikipedia pages and on many webpages; despite the existence of obvious contradictions and obvious exaggerations; like the "one dead per foot of Fraser Canyon"; or always avoiding the fact that the Chinese did well during the gold rush - better than most whites in many areas - or that the early Governors protected their rights. But of course you're just interested debunking the bearer of this uncomfortable truths, and calling me a disgruntled white man is just an easy out. The rebels of the Boxer Rebellion were disgruntled, too; and the news for you to consider about me is that I'm a relatively liberal, tolerant Canadian compared to many people out there who are genuinely hostile and don't know the history like I do; but what I know about the history is this: the politically-correct rehash of BC in the last twenty years is a near-complete fabrication as it omits so much of the full context and makes HUGE GENERALIZATIONS about whites/white politicians/white culture. But it's OK to slag white culture, isn't it? And if they speak up to defend themselves, just call them disgruntled or racists. Right, so the Head Tax Redressees weren't disgruntled, and the root causes were the same; endemic discrimination, such as you now find in modern Vancouver, whether YOU are capable of dealing with injustice and false history perpetrated by a self-serving Chinese-Canadian political agenda, or you're not. Protecting lies is by denouncing the person telling the truth is a too-familiar tactic. And the fake history about BC, as said above, is starting to smack more and more of the fake history perpetrated about Tibet all the time.Skookum1 18:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literal translation of China-Man?

HongQiGong - regarding your edit of today: Good point, but 'china-man' can also be derived from either Hua ren or Tang ren. I would include this information along with reverting to the prior entry. Twalls 21:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there any supporting evidence to say that "Chinaman" derived from 華人 or 唐人? If none can be found, we should not invent this information for the article. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 22:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)