Talk:Child sexuality

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[edit] Early sex removed

Removed from "Legal aspects"

In other countries, for example, Australian children in some states are allowed to have sex starting from 10 to 12 years, as long as the age difference is less than two years.

This statement absolutely requires exact reference. No hearsay in legal issues, please. mikka (t) 07:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Your exact reference is Victoria's Crimes Act 1958, ss. 45-46. DrKinsey 16:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Masturbation in Pre-Adolescense

My uncle told me that when he was 10, he couldn't stop masturbating. It was like a disease. His mother asked him if he was reading Playboy, but he hadn't and he said he couldn't help it. He even did it in school and the kids started to laugh at him.

Apparently, pre-teens have dry orgams, which I think it's weird. I only remember I fell madly in love with this girl when I was 6 and couldn't stop thinking about her, but I forgot her when I was like 15 and joined the Basketball team.

Remembering my own pre-teen years, I think child sexuality is just silly and fun for the most part. Even some mild sexual contact (mutual masturbation) I had with an adult (female) was something I remember fondly as a positive experience. I especially enjoyed all the hugs afterwards. Why there should be a taboo about child sexuality is beyond me, except to suggest it must be religious ideas about sin that must lead to it.
Religious and conservative hardliners draw the line at age, but methinks the more rational line to draw would be at coercion - i.e., a child exploring the world around them should never be discouraged or told that they're "bad" or "evil" for being curious; but coercing a child into sexual acts for the purpose of one's own gratification is far beyond wrong, both in moral terms and in scientific terms (skewing the kiddo's development, that is). Repression is almost as dangerous as having sexuality forced on you before you're ready. My two cents, anyhow. TKarrde 20:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I wish the world wasn't so cranky.

[edit] Intro

I qualified the intro a bit:

"child sexuality is frequently a controversial subject, and sexual acts among children and/or juveniles are sometimes seen as wrongful and responded to with therapy or detention."

I added this:

"Other views are that such therapy and punishment can itself cause harm."

Please don't remove the second without a solid reference for the first, preferably a reference that has opposing views taken into account, and please discuss politely before throwing any tantrums. --DanielCD 15:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References?

This page badly needs referencing! There are some links at the end, but virtually nothing is referenced in the text, even quotes. It needs referencing directly, as per WP:CITE 80.255.202.50 20:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yup. --DanielCD 21:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asexuality

If anyone disagrees with the "asexuality" segment I just added, please change it appropriately rather than delete it. As an asexual, the page seemed to me like a description of a different species than my own, we wouldn't want other asexuals to feel abnormal since they hardly fit the pattern described here. Just like the comment about gays above, we deserve recognition and respect as well, along with self confidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.64.223.115 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Geoff Birky

The article notes that the sections "Sexuality in different ages", "Sex play among siblings and older or younger children", "Cultural and historical variation," and "The United States today" are based on Geoff Birky's statements. However, those statements have not been published in a reliable source. They originate from his own Web site. Joey Q. McCartney 03:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I see there are online copies of the studies that Birky mentions. Those would probably be good sources. Sorry if it sounds like I'm just thinking out loud. Joey Q. McCartney 03:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Why should material that is copied here under public domain terms be re-attributed into a quotation, instead of being edited openly in the wiki way? Birky's text is a decent, well-sourced summary of the issue. By indenting it as a quote, you have made it essentially uneditable. I don't think that's a good idea at all.--Eloquence* 14:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
You raise several issues.
How is Birky's summary public domain? Joey Q. McCartney 18:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Simple: I contacted Birky back then and asked him, and he responded: "Certainly, I intend everything at my site to be in the public domain, to be used freely by anyone else."--Eloquence* 20:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I reverted myself, but accidentally didn't leave an edit summary.
Have Birky's sources been checked, as far as you know, that they say what he says they do? Joey Q. McCartney 00:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know; I am, however, familiar with other sources such as Spitz and Kinsey which amount to the same conclusions. As with any contribution with sources, I think the onus is upon those who dispute the claims to verify the sources.--Eloquence* 18:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General restructuring needed, IMO

I think in the course of editing this article has kind of lost its structure over time and needs to be restructured. Here are some issues I see with this article:

  1. There needs to be a separation between describing child sexuality and describing research on child sexuality. Right now they are kind of mixed together, leading among other things to repetition.
  2. Generally polemeic. I don't need to guess the politics of the main editors of this article. That's never good.
  3. Broader research, as noted above.
  4. Bunch of other stuff, but more specific.

Basically what I propose to do is, first, a complete cut-and-paste of moving sections around, but changing as little as possible, only enough to make sections fit together. Then we can all take a look at what needs to be added, subtracted, combineed, and referenced. I won't do that in the main article space, I'll make a draft area, and I'll note when its done. Herostratus 22:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Also... do we need to be covering child and youth sexualility in this article? Youth/teen/adolescent sexuality is a whole huge subject, as is child (pre-teen) sexuality by itself. Understood that they run together somewhat, but so does most everything really, so I think that ought to be spun off into a seperate article, n'est-ce pas? Herostratus 22:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. What I came up with was this structure:

  • Sexuality in early childhood (Ages 0 - 5)
  • Sexuality in middle childhood (ages 6 - 11)
  • Sexual issues and activities throughout childhood (ages 0 - 11)
    • (Basically a place to hang a few things that I couldn't immediately break out into one or the other of the above.)
  • Legal aspects
  • Asexuality
  • Cultural issues
  • Research issues

It's at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Child sexuality (draft), and I'll let it hang there a few days, subject as usual to editing and comments.

If there's no objection to the new structure I'll propose to make make minimal cleanups to make it public-ready and copy it over this existing article, OK? Herostratus 23:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Not having receive any objections or feedback, I'll now proceed. Herostratus 16:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly merging Sexualization_of_children into this article

I noticed the existence of the Sexualization_of_children, and put the merge tags on both articles. I'll leave it to you all to decide if these articles should be merged or not. If not merged, this article should at least mention the existence of the other one, I think. --Xyzzyplugh 23:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Right. I included that in the draft, and I think it should go in, although that article is a little loosey-goosey re sources. Herostratus 07:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major developmental edit (restructure + remove adolescents)

OK, I have pasted a new version into the article (per my proposal above). This edit -- which is referenced in the page history with the edit summary "RESTRUCTURING - SEE TALK" peforms these two (and only these two, unless I have erred) functions:

  • Move text around without adding or deleting any text (except for necessary minor changes such as new section titles and bridging text), solely to improve the logical structure of the material.
  • Remove matererial on adolescents, which is a whole nother topic (see my note in the talk page above). Per the article child - see also discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Nomenclature, we are using a working definition of "child" which extends through age 12, this of course being a general average.Herostratus 16:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic text 1

I have removed these two passages, at least for the time being:

  • From section "Sexuality in early childhood (Ages 0 - 5)", subsection "Peer groups":
  • From section "Sexuality in middle childhood (ages 6 - 11)", subsection "Sexual activities":
    • Sadistic and violent fantasies also occur: "The fantasy in connecting with masturbation, running from highly sadistic to just an ordinary sexual intercourse relationship, seemed to parallel the development of my sexual interest." A woman reported her fantasies as an 11-year-old girl about a quasi-rape by a number of men that she considered stimulating and masturbated while having these imaginations.

Here's my reasoning. For the first passage certainly, and probably the second (depending on age and how expressed), the behavior described would (I think) cause child welfare advocates to take an interest in what exactly is going in the child's environment. I'm certainly willing to be educated on this point, but I would like to see some very firm documentation on this. In the meantime, I'm not seeing that as material that should be included with the other activities described, recalling that this article is (at this time) primarily based on Western society. Herostratus 16:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to section "Sexuality in early childhood (Ages 0 - 5)"

  • Moved the bulleted list to the top. It is general, while the original opening paras (begins "According to Alfred Kinsey's examinations...") is more specifically about masturbation and orgasamn. Moved, on the principle of going from the general to the specific.
  • Removed an entire long passage taken directly from Kinsey. First of all, is this copyvio? Fair use does not, I think, cover the lifting of entire long passages in this manner. Secondly, This is too high a level of detail for a encyclopedia article, especially since we want to make room for more material on non-Western cultures and other material. The sentence which immediately precedes the Kinsey quote ("Children are not necessarily restricted to direct manipulation of their genitals to reach orgasm, but can actually achieve it via rhythmic movements or compression of the thighs.") is sufficient. Certainly a reference to the Kinsey material can and perhaps should be added. The removed material is:
    • Kinsey described the behaviour that he observed on a three-year-old girl: [indent here, in original text] Lying face down on the bed, with her knees drawn up, she started rhythmic pelvic thrusts, about one second or less apart. The thrusts were primarily pelvic, with the legs tensed in a fixed position. The forward components of the thrust were in a smooth and perfect rhythm which was unbroken except for momentarily pauses during which the genitalia were readjusted against the doll on which they were pressed; the return from each thrust was convulsive, jerky. There were 44 thrusts in unbroken rhythm, a slight momentary pause, 87 thrusts followed by a slight momentary pause, then 10 thrusts, and then a cessation of all movement. There was marked concentration and intense breathing with abrupt jerks as orgasm approached. She was completely oblivious to everything during these later stages of the activity. Her eyes were glassy and fixed in a vacant stare. There was noticeable relief and relaxation after orgasm. A second series of reactions began two minutes later with series of 48, 18, and 57 thrusts, with slight momentary pauses between each series. With the mounting tensions there were audible gasps but immediately following the cessation of pelvic thrusts, there was complete relaxation and only desultory movements thereafter.
  • From the "Peer groups" subsection, removed the two ending clauses from the final sentence. The original sentence read:
    • Additionally about half of the observed sexual activities involve a partner of the same sex (In this context Freud speaks of the polymorph pervert nature of appetite of children) and thus do not have solely explorative motivations.
    • The edited sentence reads:
      • Additionally about half of the observed sexual activities involve a partner of the same sex.
    • Reasoning: is Freud considered a vaild reference much nowadays? I'm a bit unsure of that. At any rate his work is about a century old and I'm a little leery of using him much... but in this case its just a general quote, so it would be OK. My main objection is that the phrase contains the word "pervert"... this is a highly loaded word which is likely to not be enlightening to the typical user; surely some other phrase can be found which uses terms of more understood precision. As to "...thus do not have solely explorative motivations.", this seems almost a non-sequiter. The editor seems to be saying that touching among same-sex children is not (solely) exploratory, while touuching among different-sex children is or might be? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me... again, willing to be educated on the matter, but would need good refernces there.
  • Also put citation tags in a couple of places. Herostratus 17:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to section "Sexual issues and activities throughout childhood (ages 0 - 11)"

  • Removed the entire subsection "Sexual fantasies". The text was:
    • Sexual fantasies were observed starting at the age of three. It is unclear in how many children sexual fantasies occur. Fantasies often play a role in masturbation of children. They widely vary.
  • Reasoning: Sexual fantasies can (I would think) only be "observed" in three ways that I can think of: 1) Interviews with children, 2) Interviews with adults remembering childhood, or 3) Inference from observation of behavior, e.g. if a person masturbating is observed to be murmering "Fuck me Pikachu, fuck me hard" or whatever. (Also, brain activity can be monitored with EKGs etc., but not to level of detail of determining of the person is having a sexual fantasy, I don't think.) Interviews with children would be problematic as to veracity, I guess. Interviews with adults could also be problematic as to veracity, depending on how far back you are asking the person to remember and other factors. Inference from observation would be best, providing proper controls etc. are in place. Anyway, willing to instructed on the matter, but would need good references describing in more detail how sexual fantasies are observed.
  • Renamed subsection "Sexual development" to "Childhood sexual environment and violenc", since it is one para and addresses only that issue, not sexual development in general. Although that's not a great name, but just what I can think of for now.Also moved it to the bottom of the section as it is more specific than the other material. I think this material needs to be somewhere else, perhaps a seperate section, but its OK here for now.
  • Added some citation tags.Herostratus 17:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some notes on the "Cultural issues" section

  • I think we want to make a strong a clear distinction between intra-Western differences (e.g., differences between the USA and Sweden etc) and global differences (e.g., differences between the West and (say) East Asia, or the Middle East, etc.; and/or differences between the West and more traditional societies; and/or differences between the developed world in general and more traditional societies. We need to be clear when we are talking about cultural differences which kind we are talking about. Also, I think that intra-West differences need to be sorted out from differences between the West and more traditional societies.
  • In general, at this time article is based on research, observations, and practices in the West. There are reasons for this - as far as I know, available research is mostly on Western societies, and so forth. Anyway - as has been alread tagged in at least one place - we need to continue to ensure that readers understand that we are talking (basically) about the modern West except when we aren't.
  • This is kind of an opinion, but it seems fairly unexceptionalbe to me. The West -- really the developed world in general -- has undergone some fairly major sea changes in sexual attitudes and mores over the last half-century. This has been termed the "Sexual Revolution". Perhaps you noticed it? Anyway, some of the material in this section seems to kind of take the slant that the West is this horrible place where children are unconscionably repressed -- the beginning of the section intro, for instance ends During the Victorian era, the cultural belief that childhood was free of sexual knowledge, interest, and behavior coexisted with constant adult surveillance of children's sexuality. This produced a pervasive negative preoccupation with sexuality and a category of emotional disorders labeled "psychosexual." and leaves us there, basically in the Victorian era -- when to my mind there has been considerable change over the last decades.
  • Anyway, the whole section needs to be cleaned up of some kind of loose language, and tagged where necessary. Herostratus 18:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added "Sexualization of children" subsection to "Culural Issues" section

I added this section, merged in from the article "Sexualizattion of children" (fairly severely redacted, though). I'm not nuts about this section for several reasons, but it can be cleaned up. Herostratus 19:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major edits to section "Research issues" (renamed to just "Research")

  • Added material on Freud and Kinsey. Contradiciting my earlier comment, I think it worthwhile to add considerable material on Freud, while of course noting that he's old hat.
  • Condensed the rest of the section, mainly taking out interpretations (just the facts, please; let the reader make up his own mind).
  • Added citation tags to everything that wasn't pinned down. Later I (or someone) will go back and pin these down or remove them.

[edit] Major edits to section "Cultural issues", subsection "Cultural & historical variation"

I have some problems with the tone of the first paragraph and am removing it for the time being, although most or all it needs to go back in (with some editing and verification), but I'm not exactly sure where yet, perhaps more toward the end of the subsection. The passage is:

  • In many European countries, notably the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands, child sexuality is often viewed as normal and harmless, and caretakers take a relaxed approach to it. In other western countries, child sexuality is frequently a controversial subject, and sexual acts among children and/or juveniles are sometimes seen as wrong and responded to with therapy or detention. [citation needed] Other views are that such therapy and punishment can itself cause harm. [citation needed]

For the rest of the section, I'll explain my edits word-by-word:

  • Childhood sexual development and expression is dependant partly on innate human nature and partly on the child's larger culture, in a mix that may vary between and indeed within cultures.
    • NOTE: added, by me (Herostratus) based on no research, but just stating the obvious as an opener.
  • The extent of children's sexual activity depends on the way they have been brought up and how knowledgeable they are.
    • NOTE: Retained, with [citation needed] added, although I'm not entirely happy with the assumption that activity is the main focus.
  • In different communities and socioeconomic groups, stages of sexual development occur at different times and last longer or shorter depending on the permissiveness of adults and the interactions with peers.
    • NOTE: Retained. Changed "permissiveness of adults" to more neutral "attitude of adult culture", and "support of peers" to more neutral "interactions with peers". No tag needed as seems fairly incontrovertible.
  • Children in sexually permissive or supportive cultures (those which permit or encourage early sexual expression) display a developmental pattern that is not apparent in sexually restrictive societies. In early childhood, masturbation alone and in groups leads to exploration and experimentation among children of the same and the opposite sex. Mutual masturbation, oral stimulation of the genitals, and intercourse take place between children anywhere between ages five and twelve. Late childhood (prepubescence) is characterized by heterosexual role modeling and attempted intercourse; girls may begin having regular intercourse with older boys. In pubescence, adult-like heterosexual patterns replace earlier ones.
    • NOTE: Collapsed first sentence to read "Children in cultures which permit or encourage early sexual expression display a developmental pattern different from more sexually restrained societies " The rest I left alone except to put a [citation needed] tag on each bullet point. But didn't we already say this somewhere else? Will check. I'm eager to see the research on this.
  • Sexual attitudes in Western society have also changed over time. Sexual exploitation of children was freely indulged in until the latter half of the 18th century, when it was repudiated. Then parents began to discipline children for their sexual curiosity and activity. During the Victorian era, the cultural belief that childhood was free of sexual knowledge, interest, and behavior coexisted with constant adult surveillance of children's sexuality. This produced a pervasive negative preoccupation with sexuality and a category of emotional disorders labeled psychosexual.((fact}}
    • NOTE: Left as is except for very minor workding edits, but tagged each statement. I think this is something where it would be kind of hard to know how people actually thought and behaved, especially regarding the proletariat and peasantry. And though the last sentence may well be so, I think it will need expanding on. Herostratus

[edit] Edits to section "Cultural Issues", subsection "conclusions"

It is apparent that large numbers of children at almost all ages may engage in more extensive behaviors with each other than many adults realize, including adult-like behaviors such as genital and oral contact, and sometimes even intercourse.

    • Removed, we already said that, and needs citation anyway (although earlier it was said to be true in permissive societies, here it is a blanket statement.) The rest of the sections seems OK.Herostratus 01:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subsection "Development of violence" removed

The contents of the sections was this:

  • There is a dependency between intensive physical affection during childhood and violent behaviour as grown-ups. James W. Prescott showed in a study on 400 primitive peoples that in those peoples who give children only little physical affection or who were sexually restrictive, acts of violence were much more prevalent than in peoples who showed physical affection to children.[citation needed] Surveys in western cultures show that a high percentage of violent criminals and sexual murderers grew up in a sexually repressive environment.[citation needed]

Problems with this section: first, I read Prescott's seminal paper and the other material in the external links section of James W. Prescott, and his stuff is not directly about child sexuality. He writes about child pain and pleasure (punishment, cuddling) and about about adult sexuality (sexually frustrated person=violent). I mean sure you could stretch it to say he's writing about childhood sexuality, but that's really pushing it IMO. There's a huge difference between the child sexuality that the rest of this article is about and the non-sexual cuddling and stuff that Prescott is talking about. Second, Prescott is just one guy, he wrote decades ago, I'm not saying he's not right (he probably is) but enh I don't want to pick and choose individual researchers and highlight them.Herostratus 01:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

This seems like valuable material. I hope you will not take it as my volunteering you if I ask you to find room for it in an appropriate article. Haiduc 03:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
OK. Yes, Haiduc, I read the material (a bit) and found it very interesting and worthwhile. I did not want to delete it, because I agree with the thesis, and (in my brief review) did not see any reason to suspect the rigor of the analysis. It is unfortunate that it's just off-topic for this article. I do promise to try to find one (or more) articles in which to replace it (that is one reason I saved the text here on this talk page). Any suggestions would be welcome. Herostratus 04:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another restructuring

I'm proposing to almost reverse the main sections of this article - Putting "Research" at or near the top, and the detailed description of behavior by age more toward the botton, reasons being:

  • Follows the principle of general-to-specific
  • Thinking about the purpose of the article... while its impossible to know, what are some of the likely reasons people would visit this article? To learn specifically about what behaviors occur and at what ages, or to learn what people have to say about child sexuality and sexual development in general... I would guess the latter is more likely.

Herostratus 07:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the section, which treats as same-age relations: "In Germany, twenty cases of abortion for ten year old girls were reported in the year 2002." Haiduc 14:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Use of article - people looking to find out about the sexual lives of children. Both what is observed and what is theorized, in that order. Haiduc 14:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Right... about that sentence you removed, I have had my eye on that one two... it seems to possibly be an out-of-place non-sequiter, but in any case it needs more context. Another editor put it back, so enh, I don't see it as worth warring about, but it will be moved/expanded/deleted in coming days, so be patient.
OK, appreciate your input re restructuring... point taken... I'll hold off on that.Herostratus 15:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bold suggestion

I think the article should be blanked and started over from scratch.

Reasons
  1. Too much unsourced material. Looking for sources after the fact for material is not the best way to write an article.
  2. Need to have a clear idea about topics to be included before the article is started.
  3. This article needs to be based on mainstream reliable sources.
  4. For controversial topics, it is better to have no article than one with unverified material and few mainstream reliable sources.

This article still needs a signifcant amount of work despite the effort of a large number of experienced editors. The problem can't be the editors, so it must be the material. : ) FloNight talk 12:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that blanking is a good sugestion for any article. I'd recommend to try to start smth. new at Child sexuality/temp. Later we could compare and may be replace an old version. Some of those citation needed tags seem to me excesive. material cannot be problem anyway ;) --tasc 13:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
btw, there is some work going Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Child sexuality (draft) --tasc 13:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I know, that was the reason for my comment. I'm part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch and seeing that draft spurred my suggestion to do something more drastic. FloNight talk 13:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, you could smth. drastic with the draft first ;) --tasc 13:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm, no. A valid suggestion, but... patience. The draft was created purely as re-arrangement of existing material, the current article is an improvement over that. I've been (slowly) identifying sources, removing some unsourced material, and adding sourced material. With every step explained in detail to give anyone watching the article the opportunity to respond and argue (so far no one has), hopefully pre-empting any later arguments over the material. Popping in a brand-new article at once might lead people to be like Yeah but you didn't consider Study X and Theory Y etc and so I'm putting that in, and so on. Actually I'm going to do some more of that now... let patience be a watchword! Herostratus 15:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs reviewing.

Quite frankly, this article wanted to make me puke. I didn't even know what sex was at 5, nor did I know what masturbation was. I also don't believe that all 2-year-olds fondle themselves, nor do I believe that mutual masturbation and fondling is as common as this article seems to portray. TheRaven7 20:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Scientific evidence does appear to support the idea that most 2-year olds fondle themselves to some degree and that mutual masturbation and fondling are more common then you seem to think. Obviously proving that EVERY 2-year old fondles themselves would be difficult if not impossible. Individual experiences can be different then the average experience. Also, knowing what masturbation is and doing it do not need to go hand in hand. One can engage in masturbation without knowing that what they are doing is called masturbation. --Cab88 21:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but I don't know of any 5-year-olds that have sex as often as this article states, regardless of whether they know what it's called. TheRaven7 20:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Err, I have a half-finished draft which presents this material with more citations an in a better way and all... I promise to finish is this week. Herostratus 02:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be excellent. It looks like a [citation needed] bomb exploded on this article. -kotra 10:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs alterations. The first thing that struck me was how dangerously leaned towards being very America-centric. The majority of the points solely give reference to American studies, or for example " 1943 study of primarily white, middle and upper-middle class Midwestern urban boys found that 16% had had intercourse by age 8." could be changed slightly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.143.112.224 (talk • contribs).

The problem is most of the research has been done in the U.S. Everything here has to be backed up with published sources, and if the research hasn't been done in other parts of the world, there's nothing we can do about it. Pais 20:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what is available on other language Wikipedias? Sadly, I don't read any language but English well enough to find this out myself. :-{ FloNight talk 21:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity

"Ohio_girl_lover" transcribed this from Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity (by Spencer A. Rathus, Jeffrey S. Nevid, and Lois Fichner-Rathus), in case anyone is looking for sources. (I don't want to touch this mess.) It does not completely match up with our article. JayW 19:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doing good but enough tags

This article, especially the first half, does an admirable job of taking a neutral tone and delivering well-sourced information on such a controversial topic. Reading between the lines though, I can see the editors' conflict between those who want to show child sexuality as being something natural and those who want to advocate the Victorian view that these experiences are largely negative or exploitative. In particular, I don't disagree that more references are needed, but do we really need a "citation needed" tag every two feet? It's really not going to get you references any faster - it seems like they're only there to call into doubt the immediately preceding fact. Deco 08:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's not well-sourced if it doesn't have a references. Due to the supposedly controversial nature of the material, every statement needs to be sourced. The ((fact)) tags were added as in invitation to either source the statement or delete it. But right, they've been around to long enough. Time to fish or cut bait, there.
As the other... I don't see any researchers or editors here who think that normative childhood sexual behavior such as exploring one's genitals and so forth as negative or exploitive. Also, Victoria died over a hundred years ago. We have been in the Second Elizibethian Era for about fifty years now, I don't see much left of the Victorian-era legacy vis-a-vis sexuality much of anywhere anymore. Herostratus 07:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Maybe some of these statements should be moved to the talk page. Deco 14:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another significant edit underway

Ok, I'm going thru another significant edit of this article (as promised weeks ago). Anything that needs to be discarded I'll try to post here for historical purposes. Basically, anything that has been ((fact))-tagged for several weeks and hasn't gotten a citation is up for possible deletion. Herostratus 08:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Sexual curiosity, arousal, and behavior are spontaneously expressed unless the child is taught to inhibit them.[citation needed]
    • No citation, I am replacing this with a similar statement, but cited. But the "is taught to" is problematic. If this refers to specific formal teaching, no. Inhibition may arise from a combination of ad-hoc admonitions, peer-group normalizing, brain development, and whatever else, and I don't know what the mix is, and I'm not sure if anyone does.
  • * A few begin masturbating before age 2, but many begin at age 2 or 3 as they have developed sufficient muscle coordination.[citation needed]
    • I haven't been able to find anything on the muscle-coordination thing, although it makes sense.
  • In an Israeli kevutza, one researcher found play among two year olds sometimes included kissing each other, and touching each others' genitals.
    • I'm not sure what to make of this. It's so specific that it must have a reference, and yet it contradicts the research I have found, which puts this sort of activity at a significantly older age. My main sources are Swedish and European. Maybe it's different in Israel, I don't know.
  • Doctor/nurse/patient games and similar forms of play become common. They may involve examining, touching, and manipulating others' genitals. Sex play is spontaneous, light-hearted, and exploratory rather than goal oriented.
  • Again, Per Gil etc., I'm finding this at an older age. Kids below age four are not that peer-oriented. I dunno. I have to go with the sources I have, and so I'm move (the equivilant of) this statement to the next older group.
  • If left unsupervised, play among 2- or 3-year olds can be sexual, although interest in sex play is not dominant.[citation needed]
    • Hmmm. Two-year-olds can barely walk and are hardly able to even play with other children in nearly as meaningful a way as they can later. As above, I'm going with the sourced material that puts this activity mostly at a somewhat older age.
  • 4- or 5- year olds like to talk about objects and activities that they sense adults consider dirty or taboo, including those that refer to body parts and sexual functions. They may use them to shock or challenge adults or to tease peers.
    • While I wouldn't be surprised if the first part is true, I'd want a source. The latter part contradicts the sourced material that I have, which states that sexual references are rare, although elimination-oriented talk is common.

More to follow... For most of these, I am not so muce eliminating them as replacing them with sourced statements. Herostratus 08:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Entire section "==Asexuality==": Children who will grow up to be asexual often do not experience most of the feelings and do not show the behaviors that were described above. Some may feel aroused, but usually not while specifically thinking of a peer or any other person. Some may feel ashamed, not aware of their situation, and try to force themselves into imitating their peers, yet mostly they will just try to avoid sexual activity altogether.
    • This was added by or at the best of an editor who was all "What about us asexuals". Fine, but need sources please. Herostratus 02:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Children who will grow up to be asexual often do not experience most of the feelings and do not show the behaviors that were described above. Some may feel aroused, but usually not while specifically thinking of a peer or any other person. Some may feel ashamed, not aware of their situation, and try to force themselves into imitating their peers, yet mostly they will just try to avoid sexual activity altogether.

  • At the ages five to seven years observations of sexual interactions become more infrequent. This is often ascribed to sexual latency. However, it is unclear, whether the observation is caused by feelings of shame that develop during the same age interval, or whether the activities continue in secrecy.
    • The first sentence is incontravertibly true, and retained. The rest is an unsourced mishmash of speculation and bias. Looking at in detail:
      • This is often ascribed to sexual latency. However, it is unclear...
        • TRANSLATION: "This is often ascribed to sexual latency. However, this is wrong." (Subtext: most ascribers are idiots.)
      • ...feelings of shame...
        • SUBTEXT: Children are wrongfully made to feel bad about themselves. (Although the word "shame" here is actually technically correct, so is "modesty" -- and hella less charged, also more accurate for the lay person; sexual shame does not involve feeling bad about oneself and is not congruent with the common use of the word "shame".)
      • ...the activities continue in secrecy.
        • SUBTEXT: Children's normal and healthy expressions are driven underground. (How about "privacy" instead of "secrecy", eh?)
  • However, boy-girl genital fondling is not a universal experience in the United States.
    • Heh, I gotta find the editor who did this and congratulate them. "Kitten-huffing is not a universal practice." "Serial killing is not a universal activity among American males aged 30-45". I think this sentence, present as it is with no other context, parodies itself. I didn't ((fact))-tag this, I just removed it.
  • In Germany, twenty cases of abortion for ten year old girls were reported in the year 2002.
    • Why not "In Germany, twenty cases of abortion for ten year old girls were reported in the year 2002, and Carl Yastrzemski led the American League in batting in 1963." Problems with this sentence include but are not necessarily limited to: No citation; small sample; low signal-to-noise (is 20 a low number or high? Who knows? What about other countries?); little or no stated relation to subject (were these girls raped by adults? And if so, what has that got to do with child sexuality?). The only value of this is that shows that at menarche begins at or before age ten for at least some girls in Germany... but does that 20 represent .001% of such girls or .1%, or what? Besides which it is completely out of context, and we are not even covering physical development in this article.

[edit] re: Globablization tag

An editor moved the Globalization tag from the talk page to the article page, which I guess is fair enough, although I think its probably going to sit there for an indefinite time, given the lack of research outside of the West. But it does give fair warning. But I would like to suggest to editors working on globalizing the article that:

  • Data on non-Western cultures such as China, India, etc. would be welcome but IMO should be in separate sections for those cultures, to avoid a mishmash of data from different cultures being all mushed together, given that cultural normalization is the main yardstick used for what is and is not normal.
  • I would be leery of including much info on non-Major or past cultures. Info on child sexuality among Baffin Islanders is kind of tangential to what we are doing here, ditto info on inhabitants of the Twelvth Century. Info in that area should perhaps go into the articles on those subject. Herostratus 13:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loretta Haroian

I changed the section titled "The United States today" to "Loretta Haroian", pending a further review of the section and investigation of Haroian's writings, since the section is based entirely on her work.

Removed first sentence "There is little agreement in US society about what is age-appropriate sexual behavior for children, except that it must not be abusive." as uncited and overly vague. The rest of the section seems OK and I will try to find precise cites. Herostratus 23:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to modern research sections

  • I combined sections "Methodology of research" and "Modern research" into one section, "Current methodlogies of research. Actually I only retained the last sentence from "Modern research", for the reasons given below.
  • Removed this sentence, because it seems untrue, as I am seeing a lot of sources from the 1990's and some from the 1980's:
    "Additionally, research about child sexuality nearly stopped during the 1980s and 1990s.[citation needed] "
  • Removed this sentece because I find to be basically misleading. Since most research is based on normative and non-normative behavior, and most researchers come from the same culture of the children being studied (or, if not, presumably take the culturarl differences into consideration, there is no reason that significant bias should be introduced, and I have not found it, at least not more than any other social science research:
    "Thus study and interpretation of child sexuality depends especially on the observer and it is likely that cultural biases affect that interpretation."
  • Removed this following sentece for same reasons, also sentence does not seem to hang together logically:
  • "Layers of indirection and bias in study leave conclusions to be as inexact as the method of observation."..
  • This removed sentence seems quite odd and quite untrue, if it is about researchers. If about laymen it might be more true. Anyway, child sexual activity is physical exploration to a certain extent, and not goal-driven like adult sexuality:
    "Further difficulty in this field of study is that child sexuality often is not recognized or is reinterpreted as infant play or just physical exploration.[citation needed] "
  • This removed sentence also seems essentially untrue. For instance, if I do a study of 100 8-year-olds and find that over 50% engage in public masturbation, I can readily refer to existing studies and discover that this is an anamoly:
    "It is also unknown what child sexual behaviour is consistent with a statistical norm.[citation needed] "
  • This removed sentence seems odd, apparantly implying that discovering statistical norms (within that culture) for childhood sexual behavior is not possible due to individual variations. But the whole point of statistics is to achive generalizations, smoothing out individual variations by using a large sample size, and so forth. I find no evidence that childhood sexual behavior is especially different from other behavior in this regard:
    "However even a statistical norm would not be significant, because the variety of human sexual behaviour does not fit into a single norm.[citation needed] "
  • The next sentence, also removed, suffers from the same problem:
    "Researchers also note[citation needed] that studies giving frequencies of various childhood sexual behaviors are unreliable since behavior varies among different groups of people, and among different youth due to variation in the strength of their sexual feelings and variation in their development."
  • This sentence -- the only one retained from the section "Modern research",,, I edited to make it fit logically with the preceding material, but didn't change the sense. It seems likely that it might be true, but then again maybe not if the sample size is large enough and if controls are put in to account for the problem of lost or mistake memory, if such controls are possible. It might be true, hut we need a reference, so I ((fact))-tagged it:
    "Researchers also note[citation needed] that studies giving frequencies of various childhood sexual behaviors are unreliable since behavior varies among different groups of people, and among different youth due to variation in the strength of their sexual feelings and variation in their development."

[edit] "Sexual activity" subsection in "Middle childhood" section

I ((fact)-tagged the entire section, but didn't remove much material. But I'm wondering if some later childhood material got misplaced into the later childhood section? Middle childhood is about ages 6 through 9. There is a lot of material on mutal masturbation, and it seems to be (just off the top of my head) that this would be more typical of older children and even early adolescence than 6-to-9 year olds. I don't know, but would like to some citations on that. If I or somebody can't come up with proper citations, eventually this section will have to be severe;y redacted, I'm afraid. Herostratus 17:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto "Later childhood" section, replace scattering if ((fact)) tags with one tag for entire section. Most of the material is probably true, some of it looks a little fishy to me, but in ancy case need citations. Herostratus 17:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References Need Fixing

20 through 26 don't seem to lead anywhere. --Phoenix Hacker 06:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Correction. A lot more sources than I thought aren't working. --Phoenix Hacker 06:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted

"---About non-stereotyped gender roles, and that sexual identity includes sexual orientation (lesbian, gay, straight, or bisexual)---

Taught nowhere (or one school in a thousand) in this age group (Early childhood) in the US, and you WILL be on the sidewalk looking for a job if you phrase it the way it is above. (If you want to move this to later childhood, junior high or high school, make d.... sure you check even then with you district superintendent (me) first.)

  • Uh, that's from Planned Parenthood USA; I'd say that's a pretty good source. None of the material in this article describes what schools should or should not do. I guess the assumption is that parents mostly do this kind of education. However, it's not even true that diversity education for elementary school children doesn't include diverse families, at least in some school districts. That's for USA, and the article states that it refers to the USA only. Herostratus 20:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fine Art illustration as "child sexuality"?

I'm inclined to cut the art and here's why: depiction of kids having sex in fine art by and for adults is not an example of child sexuality: it's an example of the adult aestheticization of child sexuality--pretty much the furthest thing possible from a child's experience. So, I'm'a cut it. DanB DanD 17:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi folks. The anon who made the change I suggested was of course me not logged in. DanB DanD 17:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I dunno. I kind of liked it. It's art. No are can really reflect reality, I guess. Anyway it's a adult encyclopedia written by and for adults, so. I mean, what do you put in its place? A child's drawing? Herostratus 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kinsey on childhood

Right now, we have the sentence "According to Alfred Kinsey's examinations in the 1950s, children are capable of experiencing orgasm from the age of five months."

I'm pretty sure it's only Kinsey's most vitriolic slanderers who baselessly allege that he physically examined infants to see whether or not they could have orgasms. His data on infant response was, as I understand it, taken from notebooks a convicted pedophile made about his sex with children. As such, Kinsey looks like a nicer person, but the claim looks less reliable. Cut/reword/find another source? DanB DanD 22:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure you examine people to see if they are had an orgasm; I suppose the best method is to ask them, but you can't do that with children, so the next-best method would be to observe, I reckon. This block of text, which was deleted from the article for various reasons, indicates that this is indeed what he did:
"Kinsey described the behaviour that he observed on a three-year-old girl: Lying face down on the bed, with her knees drawn up, she started rhythmic pelvic thrusts, about one second or less apart. The thrusts were primarily pelvic, with the legs tensed in a fixed position. The forward components of the thrust were in a smooth and perfect rhythm which was unbroken except for momentarily pauses during which the genitalia were readjusted against the doll on which they were pressed; the return from each thrust was convulsive, jerky. There were 44 thrusts in unbroken rhythm, a slight momentary pause, 87 thrusts followed by a slight momentary pause, then 10 thrusts, and then a cessation of all movement. There was marked concentration and intense breathing with abrupt jerks as orgasm approached. She was completely oblivious to everything during these later stages of the activity. Her eyes were glassy and fixed in a vacant stare. There was noticeable relief and relaxation after orgasm. A second series of reactions began two minutes later with series of 48, 18, and 57 thrusts, with slight momentary pauses between each series. With the mounting tensions there were audible gasps but immediately following the cessation of pelvic thrusts, there was complete relaxation and only desultory movements thereafter." Herostratus 03:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

http://aboutourkids.med.nyu.edu/aboutour/articles/sexual.html

[edit] Sex vs. Sex Play

What is the definitive difference between "sex" and "sex play"? Is it the assumption that one is to be taken more seriously than the other? Social class? Is it the lack of informed knowledge given to children? I believe that term needs to be defined with clear citations as to why when children engage in sexual activity, it is not simply called "sex". --Rookiee Revolyob 01:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, I'm no expert, but I expect it's something along these lines: adult sex is basically goal-driven, with the goal being to give and receive sexual pleasure, behind which is the larger goal of procreation. Regardless of how divergent from procreation a given adult sexual activity might seem, the desire to swap genetic material is ultimately driving it, somewhere back there. Children don't have a procreative drive, and so childish sex play is a lot more random. Children's activities in general differ from adult activities in this way, as a general proposition. Most of what kids do (when they're not being forced to work, in school or otherwise) is play. Whether it's playing house or playing pirates or whatever, it's just a whole different mindset. Play is children's work, so to speak. The "purpose" of play is basically to learn, to practice being a person, although of course a child doesn't know this and wouldn't put it in those terms. So it's not lack of informed knowledge or social class (?) but level of mental, psychological, and physical development (including hormones or lack thereof) that makes the difference. Herostratus 04:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scorched earth

This article has had way too many unreferenced statements and sections hanging around for way too long. I'm confident that the great majority of the statements are true, but that's not the issue here. This article has to be heavily referenced with verifiable, neutral, scholarly, notable, and ideally peer-reviewed citations, preferably from respected academic sources when possible. Better to have blank space then unreferenced material. So, time to scorch the earth and begin again. It's much easier to make new statements when you have the references handy then finding a reference for a particular statement. So I'm going to go through here and delete all or almost all the unreferenced statements. If that leaves the section empty, I'll delete that too. It can all be rebuilt from scratch, with good references. K? Herostratus 05:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal POV

The earliest I personally can remember masturbating was about 6, while my first sexual contact happened around the age of 8 with a neighbor girl, and again at 8ish in a sort of game with my cousin. I wouldn't put it past 3-4 year olds to be doing this sort of thing and I feel no ill effects from it nor do I bear anyone ill will due to the fact that it was consentual and for the most part fun/funny.

When you made the comment above, you deleted the notice of a major edit to the page. Also, the purpose of talk pages is discuss possible changes tot he article - general discussion is out of place.
DanB†DanD 22:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable statements about relevance of child sexual abuse

The article currently says that if children engage in imitation of adult sexual activity such as penetration and oral-genital sex this tends to indicate sexual abuse. However, this is contradicted by studies of cultures where young children 'routinely' engage in such practices, without (so far as we know) having been 'sexually abused'. So I'd like the current text replaced by something along those lines. I may attempt this myself when I have got other editors' reactions. (The Relativist 04:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC))

The information you want to replace is cited to an academic source, so I don't think removing it would be appropriate. You may wish to supplement it with other academic sources. However, you seem to be talking in terms of anthropological studies, rather than psychological ones. That distinction should be made clear -- an anthropological study of the frequency of a particular kind of sex behavior in various cultures doesn't really contradict or address in any way studies in another discipline about the psychological or sociological meaning of these behaviors as the presently cited Larsson report does. DanB†DanD 05:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I second Dan's comment. To develop it a bit more -- material on the sexual practices of (say) a hill tribe of New Guinea probably belongs in the article on that tribe, and not in this article. One reason for this is that anthropological studies use different methods, have different goals, and are untaken by people with different training than do psychological studies undertaken in the developed world. Another reason is that people searching and finding this article probably expect it to not include much anthropological material, and people looking for the sex practices of cultures outside of modern times and the developed world will be looking elsewhere, probably. Herostratus 05:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that information about child sexuality of "a hill tribe of New Guinea" doesn't belong in this article. Wikipedia is global in scope, and unless the article is narrower (e.g. Spanish politics don't belong in the Politics of India article) then it should prsent a worldwide view. Thryduulf 09:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Thryduulf is right. Furthermore, if A is present when B is absent, B is unlikely to be the cause of A, irrespective of whether you're doing psychology or anthropology.(The Relativist 12:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC))
No; since anthropology has no tools or langauge for measuring the psychological effects on individuals of the cultural practices it documents, the fact that an anthropological study does not report any psychological effect on individuals means exactly nothing.
Of course a "hill tribe in New Guinea" has the same degree of relevance to the article as a Beverly Hills tribe. However, cherry-picking obscure cases (whether Western or not) to support a particular POV does not really make the article's perspective more global. DanB†DanD 15:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Who's 'cherry-picking obscure cases'? A hill tribe in New Guinea is just one of many examples that could be given.

The claim made in the article about the causes of certain kinds of sexual behaviour in children is, in my view, controversial and needs to be balanced. Anthropology is one source of useful information. I'm not suggesting that it's decisive, but I can't see how it isn't relevant.(The Relativist 04:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC))

Well, you have a point. Some issues, though. For one thing, Wikipedia articles have to be fairly short. Granted the article is quite short now, but it'll get filled up again (I for one will be working on the article in a bit), and it easily get filled to full size and more with just a summary covering the developed world or the West or whatever. Certainly articles on "Child Sexuality in XYZ" would be useful companion articles. Another thing, we just don't have a lot of data outside of the west. Where is the Kinsey of China? Have there been any significant studies of child sexuality done in China, translated to English, and published? I'd guess probably not. I would welcome information from other developed societies such as China, India, Argentina, and what have you, if you can get it. Third, for primitive societies, we have the problem of context. I don't think that you can lump in info on child sexuality of the XYZ tribe (if you can get it) without including a fair amount of context on the broader culture of the XYZ tribe, which is getting too far outside the scope of the article (again, this is why child sexuality of the XYZ tribe should in my opinion be better placed in the XYZ Tribe article, where the context exists). Herostratus 06:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason for looking at a primitive society like, say, the Trobriand Islanders, is that at least until recently, such societies have not been influenced by what one might call 'Western' ideas. They therefore provide a good opportunity to look at how child sexuality can develop in the absence of such ideas. I take the point that context is important. Precisely for that reason, I would not choose a culture in which practices relating to child sexuality appear to have been influenced by particular cultural assumptions (e.g. institutionalised pederasy based on misogyny), but would prefer ones in which child sex practices seem to be largely independent of heavy cultural baggage. The reference could be quite brief, not adding too much to the length of the article. A final point: psychology has a fundamental limitiation as a revealer of the truth in this area. For ethical reasons, you cannot do controlled experiments relating to child sexual development. Certain anthropological studies might be the closest thing we have to a reliable means of finding out how child sexuality develops in the absence of certain conditions.(The Relativist 10:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC))
I've now made a brief change along the lines indicated.(The Relativist 05:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC))

Hi, the Relativist. I'm sorry if my reverts seem obstructionist. But it just won't fly to present a study and then draw your own conclusions about what it "seems to suggest" because of what the study doesn't say. That's OR. And, as I said above, it's muddled to draw psychological conclusions from an anthropological survey.

By the way, I've just looked a little more closely at the source you linked. It includes this footnote:

Herman-Giddens et al. (1988) suggested that sexual abuse of children caused a protraction of sexual maturity, because of an inspecific stress reaction. See Herman-Giddens, M. E., Sandler, A. D. & Friedman, N. E. (1988) Sexual precocity in girls. An association with sexual abuse? Am J Dis Child 142,4:431-3

So...um, the very source you quote does suggest that early sex is harmful, causing an "unspecified stress reaction."

DanB†DanD 05:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random editing break

I moved the sentence on Tahiti into its own subsection under Culture Issues. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the best thing to do, but it seems reasonable. It seems better in its own section then mixed in with the main body. I called the subsection "Historical and tribal societies"; perhaps there's a better name. Perusing the reference a bit (not studying it in real detail) I note that some of the material goes back to Captain Cook, while one of Oliver's works cited is named "Ancient Tahitian Society", thus the use of "Historical". I think that this subsection could be expanded considerably - I know there's a lot more historical and anthropological material out there, it just isn't my particular interest. If this expansion occurs, it might be possible to eventually divide the article into two grand divisions, Modern Developed Societies and Other, or something like that. Herostratus 04:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea. The link about Tahiti is to a site that treats many cultures and seems pretty well sourced, so we could probably steal a whole bunch of information.
My only doubt is that designating some contemporary cultures as "modern" and others not may be a bit ethnocentric. Why not just divide it up by region and then by country (basically copying the structure of the source site)? DanB†DanD 00:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
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