Talk:Chicagoland
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[edit] "Chicagoland" and "Chicago Metropolitan Area": Two Different Terms
The term "Chicagoland" is commonly used by residents of Chicago and surrounding counties in Illiois to refer to the geographical area around Chicago. In common practice among residents of the region, the term "Chicagoland" basically includes Cook County, Lake County (Illinois), DuPage County and portions of Will and Kane Counties. In recent years, due to urban sprawl, the term "Chicagoland" has been occasionally "stretched" to include Illinois counties that do not border Cook such as DeKalb, Kankakee, McHenry, Kendall and Grundy. However, the the "Chicagoland" does NOT include any adjacent counties in Indiana or Wisconsin.
Northwest Indiana is part of the Chicago Metropolitan Area according to the U.S. census bureau but it has never been referred to by the term "Chicagoland". In fact, there is always a distinction on television and in the media between "Chicagoland" and "Northwest Indiana". Commercials always state "see your Chicagoland or Northwest Indiana Chevy Dealer". Harris Bank, a major Chicago bank recently acquired Mercantile Bank of Hammond, Indiana. They consider this their first expansion outside of the "Chicagoland" area. People in Northwest Indiana seldom say that they are from Chicago. They simply say they are from Northwest Indiana or just Indiana, if a particular geographical reference is needed people usually reference "Gary".
The reasons the term "Chicagoland" excludes Northwest Indiana are many. Geographically, there is an extensive area of steel mills and gasoline refineries separating Indiana from Illinois. There is also a strong regional pride as Northwest Indiana has its own uniqueness apart from Chicago and its suburbs. There is a different state lottery. Laws regarding fireworks and firearms are much more liberal than Illinois laws. There are strong ties to long standing Indiana institutions such as Purdue University, Indiana University, and Notre Dame. Important decisions affecting ther region are made in Indianapolis and not Chicago. Gary is the birthplace of Michael Jackson and well know throughout the U.S., it is in itself a large urban area that can be used as a reference point by Northwest Indiana residents. Northwest Indiana has its own Newspapers, a couple of radio stations and residents can receive NBC and CBS affiliates from both South Bend and Chicago via cable or antenna.
Kenosha County Wisconsin is by U.S. Census Bureau definition, part of the Milwaukee Metropolitan Area. Other than that, it is probably not considered "Chicagoland" for the same reasons as Northwest Indiana. There is a term basically used in transportation--"GCM Corridor" or "Gary Chicago Milwaukee Corridor". It does refer to expressways and transit between those areas. "The Weather Channel" refers to Northwest Indiana as "Gary Metro".
[edit] Official and Preferred title of area
Does anyone else take issue with the tone of the first paragraph. Chicagoland seems to be the name of the area that is preferred the most, but its somewhat arbitrary to call it the "preferred" title. Who prefers it? And "Official" is factually wrong, even according to the definition in the article, so why mince words. I have watched TV broadcasts of the Lake County board meetings (I get bored sometimes :) ), and their planners used the term "Chicago metropolitan area". I've lived in the Chicago area for 2.5 years now, and honestly the only people who actively use this term are news broadcasters and advertisers.
[edit] Agree with previous one
Chicagoland is certainly a familiar term, but it's hardly as though people don't use or fully understand other terms, such as Chicago metropolitan area. I agree with the above poster, and I've lived here for 20 years. It would be odd for someone to say to someone from a different locale, "I live in Chicagoland." The person would say "I live in XYZ suburb" or "I live in the northern / western / southern suburbs of Chicago." Frankly, I don't even think Chicagoland deserves a Wikipedia entry.
[edit] "Zones" graphic
The "Zones" graphic at right is included in the article but has no explanation, e.g. what the zones represent or who designated them. You get a little more information by clicking through to the full image, but not much. Anyone care to explain the graphic in the article, or should it be removed? InterruptorJones 08:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Explanation of Zones Graphic
I created the zones image based roughly on the image found at http://www.wildonions.org/chicagoland-rings.jpg. The image zones as are follows:
- 1 - Downtown Chicago
- 2 - Chicago
- 3 - Outer Chicago City Limits and Inner Suburbs
- 4 - Ring Suburbs
- 5 - Newly Developing Suburbs
- 6 - Possible Future Development in Chicagoland
Obviously this is debatable on what zones could be defined as.
It was hard for me to define what they were in the image caption's box. If you click on the image and find details, it will explain what the zones are, but this is harder to get to.
--Isipeoria 06:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, the rings are described at [[1]] but I'm not really sure they are anything but a system that the wild onions website uses. 136.182.2.221 01:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Can these rings be explained in the article? It's a neat graphic, but the article needs to explain context, otherwise its just eye-candy.Bridesmill 14:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree: while pretty, the map is just eye candy. Zone 5 is "newly developing suburbs"?? C'mon now. Out in Zone 5 you get cities like Michigan City, Indiana, and Plainfield, Libertyville and Zion, Illinois. These are hardly "newly developing suburbs". While I appreciate the work that has gone into the map, I think it is misleading at best and think it should be removed from the article. MrHarman 22:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- I hate to say this about your hard work, Isipeoria, because I like the presentation -- but it's perilously close to original research. If you could provide some external source for this division, i.e. if your map were only presenting a disntinction drawn by some other source, then it would be more WP-appropriate. It's a shame, because I think it's a well-done graphic and I like the zone concept you're promoting, but probably doesn't belong in WP. Cheers, PhilipR 03:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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- drawing circles on a map is not the kind of original research that worries Wiki. It's fine. Of course it repeats the zones theory of the Chicago school of sociology which had similar maps in the 1920s. Rjensen 02:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm inferring that you're asserting that this sort of OR doesn't worry Wikipedia (not other wikis or wiki software). Wikipedia is a heterogeneous community and I question your authority (or that of any individual) to speak for it in its entirety, so instead I turn to the published standards. I'm not exactly losing sleep over it, but the inclusion of graphical elements that represent an arbitrary division determined by the author does appear to fall under WP:NOR's injunction against a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." If the Chicago School drew similar maps to indicate some variable, why don't we recreate one of those, or at least try to cite whatever variable they were indicating on their maps? Even if they just drew arbitrary lines, their lines are more worthy of inclusion in WP by virtue of their stature as sociologists. Or if the source is wildonions.com and that site has some claim to authority in interpreting the divisions of Chicagoland, then cite it in the article. All this is not to say that I don't appreciate the author's work involved, and perhaps with a clearer definition of "ring suburbs" etc. or better sourcing it could become encyclopedic. - PhilipR 04:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a "novel" interpretation to say someplace is 50 miles from the Loop. Drawing the 50-mile line is pretty uncontroversial--the variable is simply distance. The theory for zones has been standard in sociology for 80 years (using Chicago zone maps): "Ernest W. Burgess's famous map of the concentric zones of city development, probably the most famous single visual document in the history of sociology."[2]. Rjensen 09:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I have no doubt of the soundness of the idea, nor of its clear relation to earlier work. This is not a crackpot theory, which is what NOR was originally designed to combat, but, absent a source for those zones and their labelling, I am afraid it does count as OR here. This sort of concentric zone analysis is commonplace now. If the idea and those distances are described anywhere, then we are on solid ground, and the original graphic is a GFDL thing, not an OR thing. Failing that, I am afraid it is the sort of thing we need to avoid doing in order not to tempt people to do the things we really don't want them to do. Robert A.West (Talk) 10:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Further Afield
"....More ambitiously, by mid-century, Chicago may find itself anchoring a largely unbroken urban horseshoe shaped metro area spanning from Green Bay, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids, Michigan..."
Hold your horses, partner. It's more likely that L.A. Riverside and San Diego will grow to one conurbation or BosWash will become the Megalopolis than Chicagoland will come creeping from Green Bay to Grand Rapids.
I agree completely. Green Bay? Grand Rapids? I don't mean at all to be rude, but "Idiot" would be the first word coming into my mind to describe the person who wrote that.
[edit] Demographics
There should be some information on demographics? Is there an easy way to acquire the knowledge?SenorAnderson 01:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Less Prescription
The quote "While you sometimes see the word used in redundant phrases like "the Chicagoland area," "metro Chicagoland" or even "the greater metropolitan Chicagoland area," the correct usage is simply "Chicagoland" to mean the city of Chicago and its surrounding communities. Sometimes the term is employed to mean the suburbs only, but that is also incorrect" needs work. Who cares if its redundant? If local people use the above-described expressions, it is your job to describe them, and avoid commentary of what they "should" say---this is an online encyclopedia, not a grammar manual. Kemet 12 April 2006
That's ridiculous -- if you're definining a term, its correct usage is part of its definition. Anyway, the point is that locals don't use it that way. New York ad copywriters do.
[edit] Defining Chicagoland
As a non-resident of chicago I notice that the description of Chicagoland and the first graphic on the page do not indicate the same area, it would be nice if someone could make the two match or give some explanation as to why the graphic is different.Stardust8212 13:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why they're different. Sort of confusing, I would agree. --Isipeoria 23:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
They differ (in part?) because the Census Bureau definition of its statistical area will, over time, include more counties. (I think it has to do with things like the percentage of workers who commute out of their own county to work.) Thus DeKalb county was added a few years ago -- apparently after the graphic was made. (I notice it's also outside this "zone map", which I have to say is pretty silly -- apart from a discussion of the effects of disaster there is no reason to lump regions together based solely on radial distance from the Loop.) I live in DeKalb county and cannot imagine anyone saying they live in "Chicagoland". Maybe if they were talking to someone from thousands of miles away they would say their town is "near Chicago". But the inclusion of this county in a statistical reporting unit does not match the perception of the residents that their county is culturally part of the Chicago metro area.
- Like I've said many times in other parts of Wikipedia, Chicagoland is simply a conceptual idea. For purposes of uniformity I think we at Wikipedia should come to a consensus on what we believe is a good metric for membership into Chicagoland. Personally, I think it should have to do with more variables than the percentage of residents that commute to the city of Chicago for work. — oo64eva (Alex) (U | T | C) @ 20:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- The second pic, in my opinion, is far more accurate. The Person Who Is Strange 21:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
People: I decided to "be bold" and copyedit the lead paragraph of this article to:
- Eliminate 1 of the 2 mentions of "Chicago metropolitan area".
- State that there is no formal definition to the term "Chicagoland"
- State that the 15 county area is the maximum extent of "Chicagoland".
Hope you like it. MrHarman 04:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kenosha and K County
Kenosha County is not a part of Chicagoland, contrary to what many Chicagoans would like to be true and what many Californians and NYC ppl researchers will say with absolutely zero visits to the area. I personally live in Kenosha County and it is not a part of Chicagoland. Not in any metro areas at all. Wonder who thought of that. And I am going to change the text "Suburbs" to "Towns and Cities", because not all of those cities are suburbs of Chicago. Hardly any are. And don't argue with this if you don't live in Kenosha County or a similar location that is not in Chicagoland, at least by de facto. The Person Who Is Strange 21:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- After living in Lake County, Illinois in the 1990's, I never considered Kenosha County to be part of Chicagoland. Rather, I looked at it as a buffer between Milwaukee and Chicago. Would you consider Kenosha County part of the Milwaukee metro area? --Isipeoria 04:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
- Oswego is part of Chicagoland, and it is in Kendall County. Obviously, this fact doesn't render all of Kendall in Chicago, just a little bit of it. — goethean ॐ 23:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anchor cities
The top of the infobox: Chicago, Naperville, Michigan City The infobox itself: Chicago, Gary, Naperville The article text: Chicago, Gary, Kenosha
Someone want to pick three and keep them standard? OzLawyer 11:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know that that we can precisely define the term "Chicagoland". In fact, I believe it would be somewhat presumptuous of us to even try since the definition varies from user to user. Fr'instnace, there are 7.7 million Google hits for the term. One of the first usages precisely refers to the seven-county area, but most of the others very vaguely use the term instead of "Chicago area". MrHarman 04:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
