Talk:Chicago 'L'

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Actually considerable parts of the NYC Subway system are elevated. The parts in Manhattan were demolished but there is still plent of elevated track in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. The difference is that Chicago still retains elevated track in the center of the city, whereas New York does not. -- Decumanus 23:58, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually, there are some portions of elevated track in Manhattan, but only in northern parts of it, like Harlem and Inwood.

Contents 1 "Light Rail" 2 Conflicting namespaces 3 Vote on which name to move the article 3.1 Chicago El 3.1.1 Supporters 3.2 Chicago Elevated 3.2.1 Supporters 3.3 Chicago 'L' (with the punctuation marks) 3.3.1 Supporters 3.4 Chicago L (without the punctuation marks) 3.4.1 Supporters 4 marketing source? 5 CTA today 6 Circle line color 7 Loop area 8 Additions to this Article 9 Category for renaming 10 Citations needed 11 'L' is for elevated or 'L' is for Loop

[edit] "Light Rail"

To the gentleman who keeps inserting "light rail" into this article:

Please read the misc.transport.urban-transit FAQ. "Light Rail" does not mean "lighter than commuter or intercity rail". The 'L', like the NYC Subway, DC Metro, and BART is "rapid transit". The 'L's capacity is far greater than any system commonly termed "light rail", and its rolling stock is also very different.

If you're from Chicago, your article doesn't suggest as much.

[edit] Conflicting namespaces

There are conflicting CTA rail namespaces being used on Wikipedia (example: Chicago 'L' is one main article and the List of Chicago El stations is another). I will be working on getting all of them to use a single name. This article will have to be moved due to the use of punctuation. --Gerald Farinas 17:35, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

What single name is going to be used? siafu 21:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Voting for one here would be the best idea. Other nominations should be added, if your choice is not there. --Gerald Farinas 21:49, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote on which name to move the article

[edit] Chicago El

[edit] Supporters

• Tedernst 18:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chicago Elevated

[edit] Supporters

• Gerald Farinas. With all the competing popular nicknames, I like the idea of using its formal name and redirecting all the popular nicknames to it. But if any of the other names are chosen, I'm fine with it.
• siafu. I agree, but it might be better to have the more complete "Chicago Elevated Train".

[edit] Chicago 'L' (with the punctuation marks)

[edit] Supporters

• Joshers 01:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC) A Google search on 18 October 2005 yielded 79,100 matches for "Chicago L" and 94,700 matches for "Chicago El". Despite this, and though I learned on my mother's knee that "El" stands for "Elevated", the CTA seems determined to market the system as the Chicago 'L', which is how every brochure and every posted map reads, right down to the single quotes. Maybe they want it to be understood as the counterpart to Boston's The T. However silly that is, it seems to me that the CTA has the authority to determine the "official" name, which Wikipedia ought to emulate, with appropriate redirects to avoid public confusion. We can expect the 'L' usage (alas) to supplant "El" as the most commonly recognized one eventually, if it hasn't done so already.
• siafu 01:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC), per my statement below.

[edit] Chicago L (without the punctuation marks)

[edit] Supporters

• Rmhermen 02:10, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) It is Wikipedia policy to put the article at the most common name so that most people can most often find it. Chicago Elevated is not in common use.
• Lpangelrob I have never heard it referred to as "Chicago Elevated" as long as I've lived in the area. "Chicago El" would be my best guess, but it seems as if 'El' refers to how it sounds above anything else, in a strange way. ---Rob 18:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] marketing source?

What is the source of this assertion? It is currently being marketed as simply the Chicago 'L'. I can't find CTA trains referred to that way on the CTA website. Tedernst 16:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

It says here : The Chicago Transit Authority runs buses and elevated/subway trains (‘L’) in the city and nearby suburbs. siafu 19:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Right you are. I've updated the page with this information and citation. Excellent! Tedernst 20:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

So looking at this citation a bit more, I notice that it's simply wrong and outdated about service hours on the 54th/Cermak branch of the Blue line. Since January of this year those trains have been running on weekends. Is that just sloppiness or does it mean we can't trust the CTA's own site for other information about the el? Tedernst 20:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I would say that it's a function of government workers doing government-quality work and not updating when they should, i.e., just sloppiness. siafu 22:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Today on the train I was paying more attention to the signs than I usually do and noticed the same as yesterday which is that there's a new CTA logo kind of thing, a circle with CTA in it. And no 'L' or El or el or elevated or anything. I think the source is outdated for marketing as the 'L' as well. Tedernst 09:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CTA today

As a Chicag'an born and bred, and a bit of a railfan, I'd love to support the assertion that Chicago "L" is the canonical name. I do not believe that is still the case. The CTA or CTA trains is the most commonly used terminology today, with subway running a close second, although many people certainly still know and recognize the Chicago "L" usage. Do note that it's always double quotation marks, never single, although for reasons unknown the CTA website has recently adopted this usage. Most signage used an oversized italicized serif "L", and a number of these signs still exist on viaducts and the like. Most station signage is simply directional, with an inconspicuous CTA logo. I'm reluctant to force a name change given the recent vote, but I thought I'd add this point of view. --Dhartung | Talk 05:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Circle line color

What is the probable color of the proposed circle line?? Pink is most likely according to process of elimination. Georgia guy 01:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loop area

The article says " the "Loop", roughly 500m long east-to-west and 900m long north-to-south." Besides this being unhelpfully in a measuring system alien to the users of the train but is the Loop really as small as this? Rmhermen 00:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It's close to those dimensions, if they aren't totally accurate. Google maps (no idea how accurate) says .4 miles from Lake/Wells to Lake/Wabash (that's 640 meters, yes?) and .6 miles from Lake/Wabash to Van Buren/Wabash (960 meters). Tedernst | talk 17:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to this Article

I would really like to see this article expanded or another article created to include more information on the history and grown and decline of the 'L' system overtime. Does anyone want to take on this task? GuyFromChicago 16:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Many parts of Chicago-L.org can be used as an important source to build a history summarization, but it seems to me that it will literally take years before the series of Wikipedia articles on the El can match what they have on that site. —Rob (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, this article has drastically improved. Maybe it might come to a point that a WikiProject need be started to boost progress. Pacific Coast Highway ^{(blah • lol, internet)} 00:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category for renaming

[edit] Citations needed

This article is in need of a References section. I realise that much of the service information can be found on transitchicago.com, and much of the other information is likely from chicago-L.org, but there are parts of the article (for instance the possible future expansion part of the 'Expansion plans' section) that need cited to specific soures. --JeremyA 04:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'L' is for elevated or 'L' is for Loop

Regardless of which is correct, the current language used to present the viewpoint seems unnecessarily biased and loaded. Once it is determined what 'L' stands for (if it even does stand for anything in particular), the appropriate sections should be rewritten. -- SmokeDetector47^{( TALK )} 21:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted once again. Not only do I believe that the information being added by the anon editor is incorrect, but it is also being placed in the article with no regard for text around it, making the first paragraph of the article nonsensical.

Some sources:

• CTA (they run the trains): CTA’s train system is called the ‘L’, short for "elevated."
• Chicago-L.org (I know of no more extensive source of L history/facts): The key thing to realize is that it is a shortened version of "elevated railroad"
• The Encyclopedia of Chicago: Chicago's rapid transit system has been known as the “L” since before the first line opened in 1892. (note; the Union Loop was not constructed until 1895–1897).
• Cudahy, B (1990) Cash, Tokens and Transfers: A History of Urban Mass Transit in North America. Fordham Univ Press ISBN 0823212785 p70–71: it should be noted that, in Chicago, popular usage renders the abbreviated name of an elevated rapid transit line as "L," while in New York the form is "el." This is a current distinction; years ago, both usages were common in New York. (you can check this quote at books.google.com)

In trying to word a compromise, I have tied to find sources that backup the anon editors assertion—not only am I yet found a single source for this, the Donald Miller "City of the Century" that the anon mentions does not include the quote that the anon is attributing to Donald Miller (from what he wrote, I thought he was quoting from the book). --JeremyA 02:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'll find you a source backing up my assertion. Both Miller's "City of the Century" and "City of Big Shoulders" by Robert G. Spinney assert that when Charles Yerkes began buying up existing Chicago rail lines and building new ones to form a complete track around the downtown financial district he created a "Loop" which spawned the term for both the district and the train system. The reason that "officially" it's L and not El, is because of this (believe me, I was baffled that the CTA web site got it wrong). I am not a frequent Wikipedia user, so pardon my article editing difficulties, but I got into an argument about the origin of L with someone the other day who insisted that Wikipedia stated it was for "elevated train" and as an extremely long time student of Chicago history, I know this to be a common belief, but it's false. I decided I'd attempt to set the record straight. I realize that there is a plethora of material out there to disagree with me, but a word spelled wrong in the dictionary is still spelled wrong. If you find my wording nonsensical, that's fine, I'll locate the exact passages for you and you can word it better.

-The anonymous Chicago historian

City of The Century actually correctly states that the district called "The Loop" was named as such before the elevated train system existed, as it was named for a loop made by the street car lines in 1882. —JeremyA 23:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the NPOV template. The issue being discussed here is a contention over a particular point of fact (whether L stands for Loop or Elevated), and has nothing at all to do with neutrality. siafu 18:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The original revision had content which was clearly biased to one side of the issue and eliminated the other viewpoint, which warranted the template, but that's since been corrected. -- SmokeDetector47^{( TALK )} 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)