Talk:Chiang Kai-shek

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[edit] Content

The chinese version of this page has more information and content, specifically images. Shouldn't there be a way to merge it or expand the english?

[edit] Problems

Chiang and Mao had a son, Ching-Kuo, and a daughter, Chien-hua (建華).

Not really a problem per se, but this sentence cracks me up.

Real problem: The death toll he is responsible needs to be lifted out of the legacy section. Killing people is not legacy. It's what the person did during his lifetime, so it should be placed in the biography (ie what he did) section.
-- Миборовский ^U|T|C|E 01:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

We've got 1 direct death accounted for in the "rise to power" section. Only 3,999,999 to go...

The deaths need to be attributed to their causes. A "result of his rule" could mean many things and is too vague. Once this issue is settled, I think we can nominate this to be a featured article.--Ji ang 10:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Jiang, my biggest issue with this article is that the amount of damage he did to the Taiwanese people throughout his dictatorship was barely even mentioned. 228, whether or not its proven that he ordered it (either way it happened under his leadership) was one of the worst things to happen to any people over the past 100 years. The way he oppressed people, almost erased the culture and language, made people disappear if they spoke up (not just jailed, but often kidnapped and killed) and there were many others. It's part of his legacy. This article makes him out to be a great leader instead of the murderer he was throughout his regime in Taiwan. I wouldn't object so much if at least this was much more well-pronounced. Its an affront to all those that were unjustly killed and jailed during his regime to minimalize it like that.AntiG 15:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The emotive language that you have used here and in the article (which is a great deal why you were reverted) cannot be used in Wikipedia as it is not in a NPOV. I tried to address some of your additions in a less emotive and biased manner here. However, 228 is seldom associated with Chiang Kai-shek personally. It is associated with Chen Yi, the Kuomintang, and the army, but the man himself is not blamed for 228. In the confines of space, we cannot mention everything that occurred under Chiang's leadership. We can only mention things he had direct involvement over. 228 is not one of them. In fact, after he executed Chen Yi for an attempted Communist defection, he announced to the Taiwanese people that the execution took place because of Chen's misrule of Taiwan to score some political brownie points. This was actually believable. --Jiang 04:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

My view is somewhere in the middle. He wasn't around when it happened. However, Chiang instituted a culture in his government and army that allowed 228 to happen. His eventual acts during the White Terror Era showed that he really wasn't better than Chen in that regard. Perhaps more can be mentioned about the White Terror? --Nlu 05:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

CKS has now officially been blamed by an investigative group of scholars for 228

Put it in

Define blame. Taiwan was in open rebellion in 1947. Of course CKS ordered troops there. But Chen Yi was in charge.

[edit] Bob Jones University

Does the Bob Jones University honorary degree really belong in this article? I think not; it is designed to make him look like a religious fanatic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.130.233.171 (talk • contribs) .

Of course it belongs in this article. Any honors Chiang got are relevant to a profile of him. FDR July 17, 2006 21:30 (UTC)

[edit] this article is written by those who hate chiang

it seems that the article is written by those who donnot want to face the truth; it appears in this article that chiang was nothing but a stupid dictator ,even the photos of his wives are intentionally chosen to uglyfy him. please read the same article in wiki chinese if you can,he is generally honored by the chinese people as the brave hero who restablished the republic and it's him who saved the poor taiwaineses who dream about‘independence’from probable massacres by the communists.

You are free to edit the article, I would guess. Also if you have pictures of his wives which do not "uglify" him quite as much, go ahead and add them. If I am not mistaken, the chinese version of the article does not have any pictures of his wives (I cannot read the article in chinese, but I can look at the pictures there). Also, please sign your comments on talk pages. BigBen212 22:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

more than deleting the photos of the dear ladies that Mr.Chiang had divorced some 50 years ealier before his death, the entire article should be rewritten. Many english users are still victims of the lies that the US Department of State had told in 1950's ; these poor guys had tried their best to cover their naive leftist prejudice and the total disaster they have brought to china ,asia and the americans themselves. --81.64.111.224 12:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that the article is biased; most discussions of Chiang are. Still, I think the complaintants ought to establish some cred, for example by judicious editing of what irritates them most. Absent that, I'm taking the liberty of removing the POV/factual flag. --Cubdriver 21:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If it's biased, the tilt is slightly in favor of Chiang. The massacre in Shanghai in 1927 and even more significant, the persistent refusal to engage Japan from 1931 (when they really invaded) and 1936 is remarkable for its absence. And KMT minions, have the courage to sign your name. Huangdi 09:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Huangdi. Dear anonymous contributors, if you can, try to read the wikipedia articles in German or French for possibly more independent views. Sure the Chinese version will overrepresent KMT-leaning opinions as Wikipedia is blocked in the mainland and westerners don't care that much about this issue. I think General Stilwell, who is not supposed to be a leftist, had good reasons to dislike Chiang...--Tillalb 11:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] names

I've tightened and "Englished" this section. Actually, my editing is not nearly as extensive as it seems when one compares it with the earlier section; the software was evidently unable to cope with my combining two paragraphs into one. --Cubdriver 23:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] that pictures is ridiculusly big.

Its the biggest picture of a person i have seen on wikipedia. we dont need a huge elderly person staring at us while were trying to do our history note cards on him...

The G'mo just wants to make sure you're not plagiarizing from Wiki! --Cubdriver 19:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion to christianity

"To please Soong's parents, Chiang had to first divorce his first wife and concubines and promise eventually to convert to Christianity. He was baptized in 1929". It is absurd! Vess

[edit] Which picture of Chiang Kai-shek to use

There has been a dispute on which picture of Chiang Kai-shek to use. The Copyright Act in Taiwan has the following provisions:

Article 9

The following items shall not be the subject matter of copyright:

1.　　　The constitution, acts, regulations, or official documents.

2.　　　Translations or compilations by central or local government agencies of works referred to in the preceding subparagraph.

3.　　　Slogans and common symbols, terms, formulas, numerical charts, forms, notebooks, or almanacs.

4.　　　Oral and literary works for news reports that are intended strictly to communicate facts.

5.　　　Test questions and alternative test questions from all kinds of examinations held pursuant to laws or regulations.

The term "official documents" in the first subparagraph of the preceding paragraph includes proclamations, text of speeches, news releases, and other documents prepared by civil servants in the course of carrying out their duties.

Article 34

Economic rights for photographic works, audiovisual works, sound recordings, and performances endure for fifty years after the public release of the work.

The proviso of the preceding article shall apply mutatis mutandis to the preceding paragraph.

I, as an admin at Chinese Wikipedia, am unsure whether Image:Jiang Jieshi.jpg, much more frequently seen, qualifies as in the public domain while I am unable to determine when it was taken. Since Image:Chiang Kai-shek.jpg is in the public domain, I would prefer to err on the safer side to use a picture in the public domain even though less common but not to claim fair use.--Jusjih 14:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Funeral ceremony

"The state funeral ceremony is planned to take place during the spring of 2006." Spring of 2006 is definitely over. If there are any news, please mark those also in Chiang Ching-kuo, which still states: "The state funeral ceremony was initially planned for Spring 2005, but was eventually delayed to winter 2005. It may be further delayed due to the recent death of Chiang Ching-kuo's oldest daughter-in-law, who had served as the de-facto head of the household since Chiang Fang-liang's death in 2004." --Oop 17:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Central Plains

Battle of Central Plains (中原大戰) is not included in this article?

Should I add it? I can't seem to find the Wikipedia article for it also.

[edit] White terror?

I read the article but I think that it really doesn't give sufficient notice to how authoritarian his rule was. Isn't it a bit historically revisionalist/remiss not to mention by name the White Terror/228 Incident in the article? It would be like failing to mention Mao's Great Leap Forward.

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