Talk:Chernivtsi

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This is a good article, although it is obviously written from 'Romanian perspective'. In Ukraine it is generally believed that the northern Bukovyna (Chernivtsi region) is a part of Ukrainian historical territory, which in the interwar period was occupied by Romania. Another remark: there were no province named "Ruthenia" in the Austria-Hungary, the province was actually called Bukowina.

Andriyc 19:29, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Have a look at this two pictures:

Cernăuţi National Theatre (Ukraine)

Cluj-Napoca National Theatre (Romania)

Does somebody know if this buildings were constructed by the same architect? Or maybe if the timing of the construction is about the time Cernăuţi was part of Romania (or maybe at the the time it was part of Austria-Hungary?). If you know something about that post it here. --Danutz

Teatrul National Cluj este cea mai importanta institutie teatrala din Transilvania si printre cele mai prestigioase din România. A fost inaugurat la 1 Decembrie 1919. Cladirea construita în 1907 este opera renumitilor arhitecti austrieci Helmer si Fellner (from http://www.primariaclujnapoca.ro)
The building of the theatre is one of the most beautiful architectural monuments in the city. It was built in 1905 by Austrian architects F. Fellner and G. Gellmer who also built Vienna (Austria) and Odessa (Ukraine) opera houses. (from http://www.city.cv.ua/English/Culture/Theatre.shtml)
bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 19:39, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


Here is the list of all the theatres in Europe built by architects Fellner & Helmer: http://www.andreas-praefcke.de/carthalia/list_fellner_helmer.html The closest architecturally to Chernovtsy theater was the one in a German town of Fürth: http://www.stadttheater.de/das_haus/geschichte/index.shtml -Sasha

They look almost like but not the same.--Bonaparte talk 19:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] King Yaroslav and real property

The first fortress at the city terrains (preserved at the left shore of Prut river until 13 c. when it was destroyed by Tatars) was established by Galician king Yaroslav Osmomysl (1153-1187). After Tatar invasion the city was transfered to highr right side of the river.

These sentences said something about an ancient unnamed fortress at the left shore of Prut river. If you like to speak of "city terrains" on time of a King, there should be some titles of property, naming the city, or the "transfered" city, and the property. There is no mention that the King awarded or cares somehow the "city terrains". --Vasile 15:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

A link was provided but this not good enough.

1) The first military stronghold, a city-fortress at the place of today's Chernivtsi (at the left shore of Prut river) was established by Galician king Yaroslav Osmomysl (1153-1187) to strengthen the south border of Principality of Halych.

  1. A King should declare every piece of his possesion. There is no mention of that "military stronghold". It is unclear the established link between the fortress and that King.
  • Kings (at least our) at that time were declaring some property their own in a very simple way - they were building stroghodls. How it was linked to that king - ask archaeologists. They found coins of that king, typical slavic pottery, armour, records in Cronicles that king went to fortify his frontiers, etc. Finally, the types of fortified constructions (and they are preserved till these days) are wery specific for hystorical period and state. Or you will provide us with proves that it was Romanian king that built that fortress and gave it Slavic name?--Oleh Petriv 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

2) After the stronghold was destroyed by Tatar-Mongol hordes of Burundai in the first half of 13th century, the city was transfered (in 1259) to higher right side of the Prut river.

  1. Wihthout any document it is impossible to prove any action made in 1259.
  • Why not? From Chronicles we know, that in 1259, Burundai demanded that all the fortifications in Rus to be destrojed. So the people moved to right river bank--Oleh Petriv 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

3) From 1359 Chernivtsi became a part of the Principality of Moldavia.

You can't say that precisely. There is no mention of Chernivitsi since 1408. --Vasile 00:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Why not? It was like this. In 1340 the Polish king Casimir the Great had seized Galicia, which included the fortification of Chotin on the Dniester River and Cecina in the vicinity of what would later be Czernowitz. War again erupted in 1359 between the Poles under Casimir and the Moldavians in which the Poles were defeated.--Oleh Petriv 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


Vasile, I've got you. Any non-Romanian foundation of Chernivci is not acceptable for you. What can we do about it? Nothing. Only to study facts. It is not up to you or me to change history--Oleh Petriv 02:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Even the city web-site use for this version the expression "it's said". You have to have more solid proves to credit a legend. You aproximate the facts. While is sure that Chernovitsi existed prior the mention of 1408, no sovereign (Polish or not) pretended or exercited the property of the city. You can say that the location was inhabited, but only a sovereign could actually declared that location as fortress or city. The Prince Alexandru cel Bun did it in 1408. --Vasile 02:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The Prince Alexandru cel Bun did not declare any property of the city in 1408. He did trade with merchants from Lviv and it is recorded in recorded in business papers that were found (in Lviv, if I'm not mistaken). I repeat again. Putting a fortress, or building city walls at those times equals to declaring the city part of state of which the builder-king is. I want to remind you that when Ştefan cel Mare built Cetatea Albă (Akkerman), he did not declare this on TV or radio, he just built it and even if it fell into hands of Turks the very next year, destroyed and rebuilt later by them, you can claim that Ştefan cel Mare is the founder of the fortress.Or shall Icorrect the "legend"?--Oleh Petriv 15:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 ::: The act of 1408 was a sign of administration, comparable with modern governments. The city was in business. There is unknown the person who build those walls, against what threat and the moment of the building. It will be intersting to know the relation between that King and that "stronghold" eventual he builded. It is unknown the sort of activities the inhabitants have had at that time. --Vasile 18:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I see this legend of unnamed (until now) fortress, develeping in a interesting manner. Please, don't stop. --Vasile 18:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I would not be so ironical, Vasile. This "legend" is supported by archeological and historical facts. The legend is what I just wrote in History of Moldova on origin of the name.--Oleh Petriv 18:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with irony in our country? --Vasile 01:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's see the theory in more details then. --Vasile 18:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Our education is in hands of each of us. The most important not to be open to it. Teach me your "legend"--Oleh Petriv 18:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
While you refuse my version, I let this childish story, having no support of historians, as it is on the city web-site. --Vasile 23:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
What was your story BTW? Did I miss it?--Oleh Petriv 00:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
City Council established that the fort was "called" before it was mentioned. The process seems natural. First, the child learn to speak, then, after a numebr of years, to write. --Vasile 01:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


I quote from the article: "From 1775, Czernowitz was a part of the Duchy of Bukovina crownland of the Austrian Empire." How did it become a province of the Austrian empire? Was it a natural process or merely an arbitrary annexation like many others in history when the strongest party prevailed? Whoever wrote this article certainly doesn't endorse a Romanian perspective. Northernmost Moldavia didn't become the Duchy of Bukovina out of thin air. The Habsburgs annexed the territory in the wake of some diplomatic manoeuvres, among which declaring a would-be epidemic of the plague in Galicia, which required a sanitary cordon (natives of the region have preserved the name of Cordon or Cordun for the region whence the family name Corduneanu, for example), folllowed by military occupation. The name Bukovina itself is a bit of Austrian propaganda engineering; it simply means beech tree forest, and the Moldavian natives hadn't previously named their territory like this. Moldavian voivode Grigore III Ghica was assassinated on October 1 1777, by the sultan's order and with Habsburg complicity, as he had protested against the Austrian takeover and threatened to respond militarily. Official statistics of the Austrian empire record that in 1779 the population of the newly acquired duchy was as follows: 116,926, out of which 87,811 Romanians, 21,114 Ruthenians (and Hutsuls), 8,000 Germans, Jews, Poles, Armenians etc. I suggest the author do something about explaining the circumstances that led to the transfer Moldavia-Austria-Romania-USSR-Ukraine.Gyula19 17:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
City article is too narrow to give this plot. Bukovina may be a more approptiate place. --Irpen 17:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

After multiple edits, I decided to clean the language up. No real fact-checking. I'll add some additional geography and history when I can.--tufkaa 19:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish community

Since the article talks about the disappearing Romanian population, I decided to add a few words about the city's once vibrant but now almost non-existant Jewish community. (unsigned)

Of course! Go right ahead but please consider creating an account and using it. It takes 10 seconds, does not even require an email and would make interaction between yourself and others much more comfortable. --Irpen 06:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Chernivtsi was once one of the great cities of Europe. As presently written the article does not cover that history adequately, merely noting a few factoids. Fred Bauder 14:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you help expanding it? --Irpen 22:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll see what I can find. Fred Bauder 23:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
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