Talk:Chenjesu

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Possible copyvio on Chenjesu and several other Star Control pages. See the announcement I recently made on the Wikiproject for CVG page (see below as well as http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/sc1/chentech.shtml):

[edit] Bleh Star Control 2

I was browsing the Star Control 2 pages again today when I realized that some of them sounded vaguely familiar, and I realized why-- some of them contain information directly copied (save for minor edits made by later users) from this page, the pages this page cites, and possibly others:

http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/otherraces/

http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/scsaga/races.htm

http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/scsaga/ships.htm#Chm

Also, some of the information may also have been copied from the SC2 manual. I'd look into this more deeply but I'm busy so maybe someone else can take a whack at it.

-- Solberg 05:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

P.S. Here is a copy of the SC2 manual for reference: http://home.freeuk.net/a51/games/sc2/sc2.pdf

P.S. Part 2: Here is an example of copied information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenjesu

P.S. Part 3: Note that the sources copied from may not even be 100% accurate. In the second page for example, this appears:

I have extrapolated a best-guess based on earth-type analogues and logical biological structures...

P.S. Part 4: There are never too many postscripts.

To avoid putting up all Star Control race pages for AfD, I suggest anyone who regularly edits the SC pages to fully remove all copyvio. I'll be starting the process tomorrow but any other fans who want to lend an eye or two should help out.

-- Solberg 01:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] Done editing

I'm finished removing all the copyvio I can find on this page. Not 100% sure on the Chenjesu Broodhome overview, so I'll leave it in for now. It does smack of WP:OR however, so don't be surprised if I come back to delete portions of it unless they're cited. -- Solberg 23:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Absolutely ridiculous. Everything must be copied, at least in some manner, from another source (ie. the game, it's manuals) or else it technically falls under WP:OR and makes it impossible to cite. It sounds like you want it both ways, but you do not realise that they contradict each other. Additionally, much of the content that was written came directly from the Star Control games/manuals themselves, which classicgaming.com took most of verbatim. There was no need to alter anything since a) it was already adequately descriptive and b) the source of the information came directly from the authority and therefore cannot be disputed. I would ask that people please read the official documentation and actually play the games before they make assumptions. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.133.212.38 (talk • contribs) 21:17, August 22, 2006 (UTC)

Things don't need to be copied, they need to be properly paraphrased and sourced. Otherwise it's a copyright violation. You can't copy anything verbatim. Andre (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

@Anon: You're the one making assumptions, not me. Do you think I would've realized that copyviolation was going on unless I actually played the game, surfed the SC2 fan sites, and seen the manual before? Be courteous to others. I'm just another fan who is going around cleaning up various pages of games I like. This is the duty of ANY fan. If you don't clean up pages that smack of WP:OR and copyviolation, the pages can be AfD-ed (aka *deleted*) by other people who come after you. -- Solberg 05:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)Solberg

So does that mean we should remove all images from all of the race profiles? They are copyrighted material after all. While I know that Star Control II itself is open source (thusly allowing any content from that game to be reproduced here with copyright violation), the same isn't true for Star Control nor its instruction manual. However, because of the nature of Wikipedia being a completely free, open and not for profit educational source, direct copies should fall under fair use (though I am not a lawyer). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.133.212.38 (talk • contribs) 16:17, August 24, 2006 (UTC)

We don't have to remove all images from all race profiles. Same for *small* direct quotes that are *cited*. This is called fair use. -- Solberg 05:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)Solberg

I'll be just as pedantic as you then. Are you a lawyer? Were the people who wrote the Fair Use article lawyers? I don't see any citations or links to credentials for any of that, so it falls under WP:OR. Or take from this article the very first part "The Chenjesu are a fictional race of aliens...", there is no citing for that statement, so it's WP:OR. Additionally, using an image without permission is just as much of a copyright violation as anything else. Perhaps I will take your advice and start removing images and entire chunks of the many articles that go against these two ideals. While I realise that is very extreme, it absolutely holds up under your logic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.133.87.61 (talk • contribs) 15:15, September 4, 2006 (UTC)

Reply to: "Are you a lawyer? Were the people who wrote the Fair Use article lawyers?" Some of the people who wrote the Fair Use article are indeed lawyers. These people help maintain the integrity of the page. People who aren't lawyers can nonetheless contribute accurate information to the Fair Use article. Wikipedia is not an elitist community. Edits are judged by merit. If a non-lawyer corrects a lawyer's error, so be it. So your question falls flat. There are links to external sources verifying the information in Fair Use from people we know 100% to be actual lawyers. Your inability to get to the bottom of the page which links to sources is not my problem. Reply to: "Or take from this article the very first part "The Chenjesu are a fictional race of aliens...", there is no citing for that statement, so it's WP:OR." No, it's not WP:OR, it is well known by the community relevant to the page (in this case the set of people who have played Star Control 2). Being uncited =/= WP:OR although the two are correlated. OR == Original Reseach == Something that you essentially concluded on your own, and has not been concluded by major reputable sources, such as a gaming magazine for instance. OR would be more along the lines of "I have found a high correlation between drug addicts and people who play SC2." Is it true? Maybe, but it's not the job of an encyclopedia to induct newly created information, only established information. We know the information here on this page is not new because it is cited in many other webpages, including the links given in the main Star Control page. That those external links haven't been distributed everywhere on every single SC2 Wiki page is just because Wikipedia progresses gradually and isn't a static resource in which everything was done complete and correct the first time. If you are that interested, maybe you can do us a favor by distributing the relevant links on the main page to the race pages. Reply to: "Perhaps I will take your advice and start removing images and entire chunks of the many articles that go against these two ideals. While I realise that is very extreme, it absolutely holds up under your logic." -- First, it does not hold up under my logic. Second, you are quite welcome to try. That is your choice and as a rational human being, you know when you are crossing the line and so do other people. If you remove images or sections which do not conform to Wiki policy, people will (grudingly) let you, if you explain why they don't belong (on the talk page if there are many that were removed). On the other hand, if you unilaterally choose to remove many images and sections that people know to conform to Wiki policy, expect warnings, and if you persist in what you admit to be "extreme" actions, you will be banned. Fair use and occasionally even GFDL license is disputable, but not in the case we have here on the Chenjesu page which is a clear violation. There is nothing more I can tell you here. If you simply don't understand Wiki policy and really aren't trying to be "smart," talk to Andre who is an admin. If you're really out to simply be sarcastic and disruptive, rest assured you will find yourself banned if you do anything unreasonable. Happy editing. -- Solberg 23:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)Solberg