Talk:Chekhov's gun
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[edit] Rethink
- Not to be too snide or critical I think there are better examples than the TV series "24" where something incidental in the first few episodes is forgotten until it becomes the basis for a plotline in the fifth season. This would more be an example of how not to do it than how to. --SMSkaar 21Aug06
- Isn't Chekhov's gun just a specific example of foreshadowing? -AnonArtist
[edit] Merge.
- ~~ Simba 16:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't add any useful information to explain what the notion of "Chekhov's gun" is, and it's size (which I do not believe could be expanded beyond stub-length) is so small that it does not warrant it's own article, and could be easily included in Anton Chekhov. This is my first proposed merger (new user), so I'm not 100% sure how to go about this. I added the merge tag on the article page, and I've brought up the subject here in talk; I'm not sure what to do now. Wait a period of time and, if there are no objections, merge the article? Wait for somebody else who's more experienced to merge the articles? Wait until enough people vote that a consensus can be reached? ~~~ - It might be more profitably merged with foreshadowing. Goldfritha 02:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Do not merge. Chekhov's gun is a distinct and detailed enough subject to have its own page. Anthony Appleyard 12:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- Do not merge. This is a literary technique, connected to Chekhov only in name. Not everything on Wikipedia has to be located in lengthy articles whose tables of contents continue for lines on end. Kurrupt3d 21:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Don't merge unless you can find a better term than foreshadowing. The Hero's Toolkit?
- It's more than a foreshadowing. The Hero who overcomes, with the gizmo which is supplied with some kind of foreknowlege, is a genuine archetype. More than prophesy, there's also an issue of technology and preparedness by means of a kit. As a part of the Hero Myth it long preceeds Chekov or James Bond, and needs a name.I think this is way down deep in the humnan psyche. Here's a place to put it. I'll add a few "heroic" references. Perhaps we really need a primary Wiki for "The Hero's Toolkit." Sbharris 23:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that this shouldn't be merged into Chekhov, but perhaps a move to a different title would be appropriate. This article also could include a section of examples. Apathetic 22:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe there should be some mention of the film Paycheck, in which the hero receives a bag of items at the beginning that all turn out to be vital as the film progresses? --cfmdobbie
- I am familiar with the idea and its source, but I've never heard it called "Chekov's gun." The form I'm familiar with is "the gun over the mantlepiece." Can anyone supply usage examples of this form of the idea? If not, I'd call it idiosyncratic or private (I know there's a Wiki way of saying this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now) and suggest that it doesn't rate an entry. BTW, the way I've always seen it used, the idea is not quite the same as "foreshadowing," though it is related. Instead, it points to the kind of carefully-constructed (or contrived) setup of circumstances that writers of the "well-made play" would employ. A similar notion is "planting" an item or characteristic or bit of back-story, especially in thrillers and mysteries, the importance of which becomes apparent at the climax of the action.RLetson 20:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- Paycheck's an interesting idea but weren't those items dileberately placed? probably still deserves a mention, I wouldn't suggest that this page be merged BTW. - raptor 16:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just adding my two cents -- I definitely think this article shouldn't be merged. I came to Wikipedia and looked up "Chekhov's Gun". If I'd have been redirected to Anton Chekhov, it would have singularly annoying, to have to look through the other article for this one.
- I'm another person who did what the respondent above did--someday I'll read or see more Chekhov. Oddly, I never heard the concept called this before today and that's why I'm looking it up. But as a writer myself, I am very familiar with the idea of avoiding unnecessary elements--as noted below, what Chekhov is giving is a dictum against, not a prescription for doing something. There's a world of difference between this advice and a making a recommendation that objectified clues should be added to provide foreshadowing, which is painfully common in genre literature and movies. So I feel the entry should probably stand alone, as an idea-phrase that someone might be interested in looking up, but ironically it's an concept that people continually invert and misuse. --SMSkaar, 21Aug06
- Merge with foreshadowing. The advice Chekhov gave is essentially to avoid false foreshadowing. It's true that good foreshadowing is more than simply putting a gun over the mantelpiece for use later, but the primary example used in the foreshadowing article is exactly this one (which makes me think I need to improve that article). --Tysto 23:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've deleted the examples from the "Lord of the rings" books from the "Chekhov's guns in modern literature" section of the article since these examples were already written in the explanation of the term itself. I am against merging of this article with Anton Chekov's article because it is an explanation of a literary form. As we all can see, examples were taken from classical pieces of writing, which were labeled 'The Chekhov's guns' much much later. I don't think that these examples were labeled 'The Chekhov's guns" by Chekhov himself, they were more likely called that by some critics that remains unknown in the article. There is NO idea in the article that Chekhov called these examples his guns. Also we have the explanation below in his letters why these literary examples were called his 'guns'. He explains to his friend that he shouldn't place rifles in the scenes if he is not going to 'use' in the next scenes, critics connected his 'guns' to the history hero quests. VeLiKi 07:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- It's not the same as foreshadowing or the Hero's Toolkit. The audience often has little idea when foreshadowing is taking place, and the Hero's Toolkit sounds to me like something from MacGyver or a King's Quest game--the audience knows as soon as they see it that the hero will find a use for all the objects. Chekhov's gun is less subtle than foreshadowing and more subtle than the Hero's Toolkit. It's often used as a tease--the audience sees a gun (or some other significant object) and they expect it to be used eventually, but they aren't sure how or when. It's a relatively common term in theater, and it definitely shouldn't be merged with any other subject. I think it's fine just left as a link in the foreshadowing article. IrisWings 22:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spoilers
Well, now I've read that I've had both series 5 of 24 and a couple of harry potter books ruined for me. Alas, I can't figure out how to put in a useful spoiler warning in there without arbitrarily blocking off chunks of the article that don't need it...
Any thoughts on how to edit around this?
[edit] Too many examples
The number of examples of Chekhov's guns in this article is ridiculously large. Two would suffice; one from a historical reference, and one from a modern story.
Think about it. Look at Fly system. It does not spend the entire article giving examples of the common usage of a fly system. It has a clear, concise section, and the rest of the article actually explains the device.
This article, on the other hand, has one poorly written paragraph explaining what a Chekhov's gun is, then the rest is redundant examples and a pointless redundant quotes section. This article needs a major rewrite. --Cryptic C62 ยท Talk 15:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Did Chekhov really say this?
I placed a verification tag on the reference to Chekhov's letter.
I've read a book of his letters and there's no mention of this. Arguably there were other letters left out of the book, but not such a famous one, surely. The reference is curiously precise until we get to the space where publisher and date should be. Chekhov, I believe, never said this. I will take it back it you can verify this letter, but I wish you luck.qp10qp 00:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Difference with plot coupon
What is the difference between this and a plot voucher/coupon. They seem exactly the same. FyiFoff 20:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC) the Gun over the Fireplace: 1) back in the day, that's where people keep the gun handy, in sight, away from the little kids on the wild west. 2) when writing, more then a movie, you have to fill in the details. We think of certain things when you say log cabin with a stone fireplace. Maybe the fire poker, or a cooking pot, or a metal device holding some wood. 3) You only say there is a gun there if, a) it relexs on the character, settings, moods etc and b) if it will be used in the third act.
REMEMBER: Act One is the intro, the good characters, the bad characters, and the conflict are all here. There is no mystery character that just shows up in Act Two or Act Three.
...so if the little girl kills the big bad wolf with a gun; or paper work gets someone put into jail- you need to explain where it came from. Period, that's the Chekhov's gun. The "gun" is any object that the hero uses in the final act in the climax to win. The "Gun" could be simple as a character learning to keep his firm footing when fighting someone.
The plot coupon and fore shadowing is totally different. Plot coupon is written to sell books, it's a silghtly different version of this. fore shadowing is HINTING to that will happen. FyiFoffFyiFoff 20:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
