Talk:Che Guevara (photo)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This page is within the scope of WikiProject History of photography, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on the history of photography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Comfirmed eye direction change -VirianFlux

If we wish to add more detail the funeral at which Che was participating was for the 75 victims of the explosion of the French ship La Coubre. The ship was unloading 70 tons of Belgian armaments when it exploded. It was never clear if this was sabotage or an accident. The explosion happened on March 04, 1960. Che, who was on his was to the Banco Nacional de Cuba actually took part in the rescue efforts. The next day Korda snaps what is probably the best know picture of the century. So we should really edit the date of the picture.

"The most famous image of Che Guevara is the red and black bust drawing that is based on the photo." When I was younger I never see this exact version the black & white version with the red star was by far more common ! Ericd 22:01, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Great and interesting article. The last line: The new, two-toned version, the iconic image as opposed to the documentary photograph, is set for mass use. I'm not sure "set for mass use" reads right, any better ideas or wording? Mat-C 18:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What about moving this to "Che Guevara Poster" ? Ericd 18:56, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To do : - Andy Warhol, - Italian éditor cf. Article in l'Humanité. Ericd 11:11, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Image removal

I am about to delete the Wikipedia copy of the poster image from Image:Cheicon.jpg. It has been listed on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images and tagged for deletion for over 30 days. Additional circumstances which I took into consideration were that from my research the image is apparently copyrighted and the copyright holder has sued over unauthorized reproduction. The copyright holder's statement about being "not averse to its reproduction" under specific stated circumstances may make a version of this image a candidate for fair use in some specific contexts (I am not judging that question), but certainly does not qualify as used by permission in for example the our "beret" article, one of the places the image was previously used. I am copying below the rather long image page discussion here for reference. -- Infrogmation 17:54, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text from Image talk:Cheicon.jpg

I'm sorry J.J. but do you know they were serious issues about this image copyrights ? Make a search on Google about Alberto Korda. Ericd 23:05 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

The guy was a lifelong communist, though, and only wanted to cut down on blatant commercialization of the image, telling reporters:

As a supporter of the ideals for which Che Guevara died, I am not averse to its reproduction by those who wish to propagate his memory and the cause of social justice throughout the world.

So it's used with permission.

That does not follow. Wikipedia does not have policies of propagating the memory of Che, or of propagating social justice. There may be a fair use justification for using the image in some articles: Che Guevara (photo), for example. But this is not a by permission image. Incidentally, the case referenced establishes that the photographer has asserted copyright, but it does not establish that his assertion is legally founded; the case was settled before a court decision. Markalexander100 08:57, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have policies of propagating the memory of Che, or of propagating social justice.
But :
The article about Guevara propagate the memory of Che,
A Free Encyclopedia is a contribution to the cause of social justice throughout the world.
Ericd 17:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, no. Propagating implies promoting; an article which said "Che's a bastard" would not be propagating his memory. A Free Encyclopedia is a contribution to the cause of social justice throughout the world? Again, no. It could be for or against social justice. Wikipedia, as it happens, is neither. Markalexander100 00:51, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Very odd semantics. Since he would probably argue that an objective, NPOV depiction of Che, in and of itself, forwards social justice (thus worthy such a reporduction). Intentionality is not relevant to contribution. El_C 08:45, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No, I think we qualify.

The Che article is obviously designed to let people know about Che-thus, we fulfil the "propagating his memory" requirement. Also, an encyclopaedia that's free for anyone to use and edit and has a NPOV policy is hardly a champion cause of social injustice.

[edit] Not the Korda image

This is a red and black impression of the Jim Fitzpatrick image, which was based on the Korda photograph (see discussion at Che_Guevara_(photo)). Fitzpatrick renounced copyright on his graphic and any derived works, as described on his website. Whether it's a derivative work of Korda's photo (and thus Fitzpatrick never had the copyright in the first place) is one for the lawyers (but I doubt it - the image is universal at this point, which was Fitzpatrick's intention as well as Korda's). In any event, it can be safely surmised that Korda wanted his image to be used in any fair, noncommercial discussion of Che. He didn't use the term "NPOV" but probably wouldn't disagree with it. ;)

the image is universal at this point I don't know what that means, but I don't think it has any legal significance. Mark1 06:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It means that the image is used by all and sundry, as the artist intended. I have a t-shirt from Cuba with a glow-in-the-dark representation of it. ;) This may or may not change the legal standing of our use of the art (in a US jurisdiction probably not, though there it would probably have been fair use anyway), but again, it's a moot point; this is Fitzpatrick's image and he's expressed the wish that it be freely reproduced. From the artist's site:
"It's an odd world." says the artist, "The Che Guevara poster became a worldwide phenomena and caused outrage everywhere it appeared. Because the various posters of Che I produced were based on a photograph by a then unknown Cuban photographer plus the fact that I had met him (see Biography section ), idolised him and of course wanted to make sure he was never forgotten I made all the Guevara images copyright free. That's how it spread everywhere so quickly.

toh 22:31, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)

I read somewhere (I think in the French magazine Le Point) that Korda's widow was engaging a new lawsuit for this photo and this time asking for a lot of money....
Ericd 16:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] From image page

Che Guevara icon.

This is a photo portrait taken by the Cuban photographer Alberto Korda and printed with strong contrast. The star on Che's hat and his eyes have also been edited from the original version. Cuba didn't sign the Berne convention thus the copyright status is unclear.

Uncropped source photo: Image:Che.jpg.

Korda successfully claimed copyright in 2000 to prevent it being used in a Vodka ad. Korda was a lifelong communist, though, and only wanted to cut down on the commercialization of the image, telling reporters:

"As a supporter of the ideals for which Che Guevara died, I am not averse to its reproduction by those who wish to propagate his memory and the cause of social justice throughout the world."

See http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/09/16/cheguevaraphoto.ap/.

noncommercial

--69.108.1.58 07:14, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)LOL--69.108.1.58 07:14, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC) nonfreedelete 85.210.62.148 21:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

With reference to Cuba not being a signatory to the Berne Convention you appear to be misinformed. They signed up in Paris, France on February 20, 1997. See http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/Remarks.jsp?cnty_id=936C Prior to that Cuba signed up to the Universal Copyright Convention (UCC) in Geneva in 1957 so the copyright status can hardly be unclear. -- Chris 09-Oct-2005 22:51

[edit] Warhol never painted Che Guevara.

I'm very new to Wikipedia, and I don't understand how to edit the pages. However, I wish to correct a huge error with regards to the alleged "Andy Warhol" image of Che Guevara. Professionally, I'm the archivist at The Andy Warhol Museum, and the curator of a current little exhibition there which adresses this very topic. The show is titled '"...trapped like a rat in Rome' The Che Guevara Episode." It's drawn entirely from Warhol's personal archives, and consists largely of correspondence to Warhol from his assistant, Gerard Malanga (the title is a quote from 1 of the letters). Malanga made 2 paintings (silkscreens on canvas) and about 20 or 30 "drawings" (silkscreens on paper) in late 1967, and sold them in Rome, mistakenly believing that he had Warhol's co-operation. Eventually, Warhol was forced to claim the works were his, but only to save his assistant from a jail sentence of possibly 15 years. It's a rather complicated story, but these works are currently not attributed to Warhol - they are not recognized by the Catalogue Raisonne of Warhol's work, a massive on-going project which is the official keeper of such records. The "Che Guevara" works are only a rather embarrassing chapter in Warhol's chaotic life. Not only this, but the "Warhol" Guevaras do not even use the brilliant heroic image discussed at such length in your pages - rather, Malanga chose the photo of Che that was made after he was killed; his body is laying prone on a gurney, and he's surrounded by military officers. A re-creation that I commissioned for the show - based on Malanga's own detailed description of the work, and a photo that appeared in a review of the show in a contemporary Italian newspaper - can be found at warholstars.org - search for Che in the News section, I believe.

Matt Wrbican Archivist The Andy Warhol Museum Pittsburgh wrbicanm@warhol.org

[edit] Just Cause

It is almost insulting that they say that the video game character immitate's Che's life. The video game has a CIA backed-fighter seeking out a "dictator" with "WMDs". Che was killed by CIA backed Latin American soldiers. It is very offensive the way they have it phrased here.

Yes, certainly, only the image on the front is based on Che. The game itself seems to oppose anything Che may have argued or stood for.Kevin.doyle 15:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kevin.doyle

[edit] Che's "facial expression"

Someone has included in here a note that in the original photograph Che looks "worried" and that the Fitzpatrick took liberties with the position of the eyes to make Che look more heroic. I have a poster of the original photograph in my room and as I look at it I see the exact same position of eyes in each the poster on my wall and the Fitzpatrick image on my computer. Furthermore, in John Lee Anderson's biography of Che Guevara, he describes the picture of Che in a way that also disagrees with this author's summary. "In it, Che appears as the ultimate revolutionary icon, his eyes seeming to stare boldly into the future, his very face symbolizing a virile embodiment of outrage at social injustice" (page 465). Now I know that I sound like an overly enthusiastic fan of Che's, but honestly, when the two images are compared, they look the same and the most extensive biography of Che to date seems to agree with me. If this quotation and the arguments that go along with it are not included in the article (which isn't all that necessary, although the quotation is with merit), then at least don't include the opposing belief without anything to back it up with. I've provided a direct quotation; if no one else can disprove me, than please remove that paragraph. And, as an aside, the date was indeed March 5th according to Anderson, who spent years living in Cuba just to research Che's life. The explosion was March 4th and the funeral took place the day after, according to Anderson on pages 464 and 465.Kevin.doyle 15:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kevin.doyle

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/h/e/Talk%7EChe_Guevara_%28photo%29_e56f.html"