Talk:Champagne socialist

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Old talk from VfD. It was decided not to delete the article:

  • Champagne socialist - a joke. user has history of vandalism. --Jiang | Talk 09:35, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
    • It's not a joke. It's a common term at least in British politics and possibly elsewhere. There may be well be enough to eke out an article here - if not it would be a footnote on the socialism and/or british politics pages. Please do not call things a joke without knowing what you are talking about. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:44, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
      • limousine liberal would seem to be the equivalent American term (oweing to their unique use of the word liberal). I agree that there's an article there somewhere. -- stewacide
    • This is a serious term in British politics. Keep. Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair! 09:51, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
      • Is the term really used often? I only get 500 hits on Google, but some are from the BBC. I'm not sure. Daniel Quinlan 10:10, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
      • Keep. It may not appear all that often, but the bottom entry on the first page of Google I get is in Polish, so the term's definitely got about. -- Arwel 13:32, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
        • It's not used hugely often, but it is used often enough. I get 747 Google hits - I'd've guessed there would be more - I suppose usage has tailed off a bit in recent years (where recent years = google cache years)
    • Keep. Very widely used term. Only a joke if you think Tony Blair a joke. Ooops. But seriously, keep. Bmills 10:17, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
      • For TB can't be a champagne socialist... that would pre-suppose that he is a socialist :=). I guess the label could be applied to John 'Two Jags' Prescott though! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 11:23, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
      • In Ireland, we had our very own Dick Spring. And yes, that is his real name. Bmills 11:32, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
    • Keep, although it might be nice to make it a redirect to a single page which explains synonymous terms, and perhaps other such phrases in politics. Onebyone 11:46, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

ping 07:23, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

    • Keep. There are already good articles on the Australian and US equivalents. Secretlondon 12:38, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
    • Keep. Completely legitimate, although certainly not an American term. Anjouli 17:10, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
    • Keep. I can't believe anyone was even thinking of deleting this! --Daniel C. Boyer 21:27, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

End of VfD talk

The first line:

A champagne socialist is a derogatory term originating in the UK for a person who purports to support socialism ideologically, but supposedly disregards this ideology in the course of their daily lives.

I have removed the "supposedly" because there is no supposition about it. A champagne socialist *is* someone who acts in that way. The supposition comes when we decide if a particular person meets the criteria of being a CS. An equivalent situation: "A socialist is to the left of centre of politics" versus "A socialist is supposedly to the left of centre of politics". Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:05, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Before I edited it, the article said "The phrase refers to politicians that are perceived as having socialist tendencies in their ideologies but disregard socialist ideals in their daily life." I don't think that definition is quite right: I think it reads like it's been influenced by McCarthyist thinking which assumes that socialism is a greater evil than hypocrisy.

The phrase champagne socialist is never used to describe people who deny being influenced by socialist thought. You never hear a politician saying "I'm not a socialist" being answered with "yes you are a socialist, you're actually a champagne socialist!" So I think the word perceived is out of place.

The point is that a champagne socialist isn't really a socialist at all. Put it another way, a champagne socialist is someone who doesn't practice what they preach.

But you don't have to be a politician to be a champagne socialist. Anyone who claims to be an advocate of the working class, but who doesn't practice what they preach, is also a champagne socialist. I've tried to make that point in the article, but perhaps it's a bit waffly now, can anyone improve on it? Thanks. Squashy 15:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I notice that there are no citations at all on the part of the article naming prominent champagne socialists. In most cases the reason for them being champagne socialists is clear (although a citation wouldn't hurt). In the last two, Prescott and Burchill, no evidence is provided. Now I know (and most people in the UK do as well) that Prescott is probably a champagne socialist, but a quote from a newspaper article etc wouldn't hurt. It's a bit dangerous to go insulting people without the evidence to back it up! Captainj 17:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Amazingly the only reference I can find to John Prescott being a Champagne Socialist is the Evening Standard being forced to apologise for calling him one [1]. I think we should remove his name until a better reference is available.

In fact I think we should remove all names without actual references (the article says they've been labelled Champagne socialists, prove it! (I will actually try myself, when I have the time).

Text from article:

Those who have been labeled as "champagne socialists" include Geoffrey Robinson, (ex-Paymaster General and chairman of Coventry City Football Club), Gavyn Davies (former Labour Party donor, Goldman Sachs banker and BBC chairman), Vanessa Redgrave (actress and prominent socialist), Julie Burchill (columnist for the Times and Guardian) and John Prescott (current Deputy Prime Minister)[citation needed] . In the film The Aviator, Howard Hughes labels the whole of middle class left-wing Americans as champagne socialists.

End. Captainj 15:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added the ones I could find, + a couple of others I found by accident (whilst searching for the names on the list). There are plenty of references out there for names above that are not included in the article, but I couldn't find any I could trust. I'm convinced that Prescott in particular must have been labelled a champagne socialist, somewhere. so I would welcome any help digging out the reference. Captainj 15:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bolinger Bolshevink

I added this as an equivalent term. It gets 14 600 on Google so I think it's worth having. I think it is really used as "Champagne Socialist only more so" implying good Champagne and far left but I couldn't refence tha and din't want to commit original reseach. I someone more knowledgable could explain the differences that would be peachy. A Geek Tragedy 22:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

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