User talk:Cfvh/Archive1

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Austrian nobility

hello there Cfvh, thank you for helping out on the article about Austrian nobility. However I have to point out that German family names with prepositions are kept in German, they are not translatable into English. It is Paul von Hindenburg, not "Paul of Hindenburg". However rulers of a territory are normally kept "X of somewhere", but not noble titles. Unless you can provide conclusive evidence to the contrary, the article will revert back to the German names. You have also pointed out that some prepositions are wrong from the content? Maybe you could be so kind to point out which ones? I am always open for suggestions. with kind regards Gryffindor 04:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

hi Charles, well I obviously want to avoid a revert-edit war, therefore I think it's better to communicate directly, I'm glad to hear you agree. I am still confused with your line of thought. You admitted that it's Paul von Hindenburg, not "of Hindenburg". If you also look into the article about "von", you will see that yes, it is "from", but that's only an approximate use. Only a person who was a princely ruler or something similar, can be called "Someone Prince of X", such as Prince Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este. However normal noble family names are not translatable into english, it just doesn't exist. Or how would you propose "translating" Carl Ritter von Ghega? Of course this is the English Wikipedia, that does not mean though that we can put in wrong information. I see that you left the form with the "von" which is fine I think. However, you also deleted the "Esterhazy de Galantha". That is the correct form as well. Nobles could either call themselves "von X" or "de X", depending on what part of Austria-Hungary they were. So nobles outside Austria proper in Galicia, Hungary or Bohemia for example called themselves "de" and avoided the "von", which was too Germanic for their taste. Since the article talks about Austro-Hungarian nobility in general, that point needs to be shown or explained at least. See for example Pauline de Metternich, who was also known as "von Metternich" obviously. Furthermore the reason why the current family names were put in, is because many names were changed or shortened. The article talks about the current situation of Austrian nobles (or descendants if you will), therefore current family names need to be included because many were changed. Therefore the prepositions or the former names were put in brackets, to illustrate both versions. Rule of thumb on Wikipedia is better to have more information than less information. I'm sure we can come to some agreement. Gryffindor 21:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
"Pauline de Metternich" is correct just like "Pauline von Metternich", as is "de Rothschild" or "von Rotschild", "Esterhazy de Galantha" or "Esterhazy von Galantha" or Countess Geraldine Apponyi de Nagy-Apponyi. I don't share the concern that the old way the article looked was messy. The names were in brackets for the old form, and the new ones next to it, quite simple. The article needs to show the old form of the family names, and the new forms as well. I don't see any point in writing an article about Austrian nobility before 1919 and a separate one for after 1919, both cases can be dealt with in one article with one list. About the different prepositions, if you want to mention it as footnotes or whatever, I leave that up to you, but the different preposition versions need to be mentioned, as Austria-Hungary was a multi-national empire. Hungarian and German were equal languages, for example the "Festetics de Tolna" is on the same footing as "Festetics von Tolna". Both versions were used and accepted, depending on which part of the empire that person just happened to be, and which one they preferred to be called as (my previous remark about not wanting to carry a Germanic-sounding name). I'm getting the impression that basically you are concerned with the layout and how the list is compiled, not really with the content. Of course I am open for suggestions about how to make the list look better or more efficient, please by all means. But they need to include the German prepositions (and the non-German ones if that applies), the old family-names, and the current family-names, because there are substantial differences between those two (see for example the family name of Nikolaus Harnoncourt, whose family name got totally butchered). Gryffindor 01:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It looks like Madonna singles? ah ha.... well, so there is a list, I don't see any problem with that one either. The list of Austrian families was not a copy-paste job but based on exhaustive research about what the old names actually were, and what they are today. There could be some mistakes however, but that's what Wikipedia is all about, users helping in polishing articles. The list can be reformated, but why should it be shrunk or even deleted? Again, better to have more information than less. The article talks about Austrian nobility in general, not just the Archdukes and members of the imperial family. I can offer you a compromise: If it is so disturbing to you, we can cut the list out and create a separate article (something like "List of Austrian noble families" or something like that), linking it with the main article. But extant families as well as extinct ones can be left, with a simple note stating when they died out. This is important, since there are some families that used to play an important role as well (such as the Babenberger) who obviously deserve mention. And yes, the "de" and "von" are interchangeably usable since they are synonymous, but just like you stated way in the beginning that the French "de" is an exception and not usable as "from", it's the same situation. The "de" in Austria-Hungary was obviously borrowed from French, which was the lingua franca at court anyways. The usage of de was not only used in Austria-Hungary but Poland as well. Therefore, it is "Name de Rothschild" or "Name von Rothschild", not "Name from Rothschild" or what have you. On top of that, there are families whose last names were "von der X", "zu X", "von und zu X" or even "vom und zum X" or even "vor dem X" (Dative_case#The_dative_case_in_German, which is simply not translatable into English unless you really want to make it sloppy). How would you translate that, no article on German or Austrian nobles carries that format on Wikipedia. They can be combined, if that person was of higher nobility, such Ehrengard Melusine von der Schulenburg, Duchess of Kendal and Munster or Prince Chlodwig zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst, who is however not listed as "Prince Chlodwig to Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" or whatever, as well as Heinrich Friedrich Karl, Reichsfreiherr vom und zum Stein, who is not "Henry Frederick Charles, Imperial Baron of(?) and to(?) Stein". you may also gladly check the Harnoncourt case, many aristocratic families had very long last names, that was normal. Gryffindor 03:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. Basically your point is that the German language noble titles can all be translated into English, and I respectfully have to disagree. I have not heard of such cases, nor have I encountered them. Wikipedia is obligated to present facts in an encyclopedic fashion. I am always open for persuasion, but unless you can point out to me an enyclopaedic book or the Gotha in English, this is all speculation. Of course "von der" is grammatically speaking "of the", however this is never used in family names, only if we speak of person itself in a normal sentence "Die Dame von der anderen Abteilung." which you can obviously translate. Princely families, which you have mentioned, could be mentioned with an "of" instead of "de" or "von", however these are exceptions. I made a quick search on Google for example for "Czernin von und zu Chudenitz". According to your arguments it would have to be "Czernin of and to Chudenitz" or something like that. There are 0 hits for that name, ergo it does not exist. Same thing for "Esterhazy de Galantha". We can speak of "Prince Esterhazy", rarely but wrongly of "Prince of Esterhazy", but not "Esterhazy of Galantha", it just does not exist. We can speak of "Prince Bismarck" or "Count Bismarck", but such a form as "Count of Bismarck" or "Prince of Bismarck" is highly unusual. I have searched for your case of "to Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" and found 14 hits, as opposed to "zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" with 11.900 hits. So I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. It is not possible to try to translate every German preposition because in that case the family name is being falsified, which is not permissible on Wikipedia. We can speak of a count or prince from a certain area or domain, however that does not change the fact that their family name was "von" or "de" or what have you, not "of". I already gave the example of family of "de la Fontaine und d´Harnoncourt-Unverzagt", there is no way to translate that into English, it just is as it is. You also changed the article about the "Edle" and the "Edler" to "Edler Herren und Edle Herrinen", where is this information coming from? Herr and Frau were not added to the noble title, otherwise it would have to be "Herr Graf" or "Frau Gräfin", which is wrong as well. And "Edle" certainly was not on the same level as the English "Lord", where are you getting this information from? Where is this female version of "Ritter", as in "Frauen", coming from? Or did you translate that directly from "Dame"? There were certain noble titles in Germany which were "Herr von" or "Frau von", however these were extremely rare and only present in Germany to my knowledge, they are not the same as "Edler" or "Edle" and that information needs to be corrected. Gryffindor 13:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC) ps: "Reichsfreiherr" is indeed translated as "Imperial Baron". yes, the title was a "Baron of the Holy Roman Empire", however it can be shortcutted into Imperial Baron. You can check Britannica here [1], and the homepage of Schloss Neuhardenberg where vom und zum Stein used to stay [2]. I find 900 hits for "Imperial Baron" and half of that for "Baron of the Holy Roman Empire", so please don't say "Never" when the situation is different to what you claim.
Family names of noble titles cannot be all translated into English. We can use English translation of the noble person is actual owner/"ruler" of a place or domain, such as Anne of Austria, but in the cases of other nobility, there can be no such thing. Therefore it is "Ritter von Ghega" and not "Knight of Ghega", same thing goes for "De la Fontaine und d´Harnoncourt-Unverzagt", or how would you suggest to translate it? As there are certain French noble family names that are untranslatable, unless for example a "Comte de Paris" could be translated as "Count of Paris", a "Princesse des Ursins" is not translatable. And concerning the "Imperial Baron" (Reichsfreiherr) I hardly think that anyone can call Encyclopedia Britannica sloppy. Google hits also show that "Imperial Baron" is used, more even that "Baron of the Holy Roman Empire". I also have already pointed out the other site of Schloss Neuhardenberg, where that word is used. But that is besides the point right now. There is also no correct translation possible for "vom und zum Stein". You point out that it can be "of Stein" (now according to your reasoning) however that is an approximation at best. It is better to leave the original names instead of falsifying versions that are incorrect or estimates at best. Also, as you have pointed out, "Edler Herren" and "Edle Frauen" is not a title, it is an addressal. Therefore, the subcategories have to be "Edler" and "Edle", no "Frauen" or "Herren". They were maybe addressed as such, however such a noble title did not exist, the heading of the subgroupings is strictly about the title itself, not the style of addressal. There is also no female version for "Ritter", and "Frauen" did not exist as a noble title to my knowledge. Anyone of female gender is a "Frau", there is nothing special to that. I have to point out one more thing since you keep bringing it up but I did not want to reveal it: I happen to be a "von" myself ;-) also, my aunt's family name is also on that list and you insist on a change of her family name (amongst the others) that just does not exist. Again, if you want to translate everything into English, please point out first the sources what you are basing this on. Wikipedia is obliged to give information as true as possible, everything has to be correct and not based on speculation. Until then, I suggest we leave the original versions as they are, some things can be changed such as "Duke of Reichstadt", which is an actual place. I also suggest we discuss this on the talk page of the article itself, otherwise this back and forth between our pages is going to be to much. Gryffindor 12:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Prince Imperial

Regarding Princess Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este, are you sure that your change is correct? Googling shows that "Prince Imperial and Archduke of Austria-Este" is far more common than the other way around. That doesn't, of course, mean "Prince Imperial of Austria-Este" as well as "Archduke of Austria-Este". "Prince Imperial" is used without a territorial designation, the "of Austria" is implied. Or have I missed something? -- Jao 21:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Question

hi Charles,

I see you have been quite busy moving articles. Although I agree on some cases with you, again it is normally better to submit a discussion first, otherwise you could encounter run-ins such as was the case with Ernst August, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. Just assume the good faith of other users, and if you are right then obviously you will convince them, but better first to submit a query on the talk page before going ahead.

In any case, having said that, I was wondering what you think of this case here Luise of Tuscany. Do you think it should be renamed into "Luise of Austria-Tuscany" for example, as is the case in some of the "Austria-Este" members? Was there such a thing, or are we going with the most common known name? Looking forward, cheers... Gryffindor 16:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC) ps: also this one here Albert of Thurn and Taxis, should the "Prince of" be included or not?

  • checking...* you're right. She was never queen, I never noticed that. I did some readings on this thing, I agree with you, she was simply "of Tuscany" in this case, even though the German version is "Österreich-Toskana". But she would have to be renamed, you're right, I never noticed that she never became queen but was divorced a princess. hm, so what do we do now? "Archduchess Luise, Princess of Tuscany" sounds good.. but they were Grand dukes, right? so was she "Grand Duchess of Tuscany" though in this case? "Grand Duchess Luise of Tuscany"? "Princess Luise of Tuscany"? Gryffindor 17:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Charles, I posted the move request on Luise of Tuscany, looking forward to your input. Gryffindor 16:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


Your move of Chateau Schönhausen

Please refrain from just moving articles because you don't like the word that was used in translation. A chateau is a country manor/small palace and is the correct description for this place. --Mmounties (Talk) 05:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It's used in English as well. --Mmounties (Talk) 05:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I jumped to a conclusion there. You could have avoided any misconceptions by first discussing suggested modifications before making wholesale changes to articles and moving them. --Mmounties (Talk) 02:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Might I suggest that everyone promise to follow Wikipedia policy and discuss major translation changes before they are made. It's not so bureaucratic of a process that we can't ask something on the German-English translation talk page and have an answer from several people within a day as to whether or not it's a good idea. Pretty please? This will save me some time digging through talk pages :-D. JHMM13 (T | C) 05:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Hesse and by Rhine

If they were an independent sovereignty then they should be titled as queen/empress consorts. So basically, they took care of their own business, but had the Empire to back them up if they needed it, just want to make sure I have it right. Prsgoddess187 16:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


Discussion

Thank you for participating in discussion regarding translations. I haven't the first clue as to what you guys are arguing about, but it all seems rather productive. Thanks a lot :-D JHMM13 (T | C) 03:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Time of Franz Ferdinand assassination

Dear Charles,

What makes you think that FF was assassinated at 9:45 p.m.? Somebody else changed this to "early in the morning", but you have reverted it. He was definitely dead by 11:30 a.m. The actual shooting took place about 11:00 a.m. Noel S McFerran 10:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Charles, Could you email me (address on my website)? I'd like to discuss a few things without the rest of the reading audience. I tried two email addresses for you, but neither worked. Noel S McFerran 04:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

New Palace

That's great! I was going to be translating the existing article but I haven't started yet. Do you want to try your hand at translation? If you have the guidebook, you could add stuff and perhaps even correct some of the German article (if needed). Don't forget to add it as a source under references. :) This one might even make it to the DYK section on the front page if we have some neat trivia and with the guidebook in hand you should be more than properly equipped to come up with some. I was going to do it because I already committed to it, but since then it turns out I'll be packing up my house and move to California in April so now I'm just trying to finish what I've committed to until the necessary wiki break (5 - 6 days driving alone, never mind the packing, loading, unloading and setup that's going to be involved). So if you could help and translate and finish this article, that would be wonderful.--Mmounties (Talk) 03:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Mmounties (Talk) 04:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
No rush. School's more important.  :) --Mmounties (Talk) 01:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you don't have the article on a subpage of yours yet, it would be a good idea to put it thre and send me the link. Then I can take a look. (if you don't know how to create a subpage, just add something you the URL on your user page, like "/current" without the quotation marks, and then edit the new page that comes up). --Mmounties (Talk) 02:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Charles, what you've got on your subpage looks definitely like a good start. I don't want to read it too carefully at this point because I don't want to spoil my perspective and be able to look at the whole picture when you're done with it. So please, do let me know when you get there.  :) --Mmounties (Talk) 19:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

your input

hi Charles, how are you? I could use some of your input on this topic here Talk:Marie Josepha, maybe you care to visit? That would be greatly appreciated, thanks... Gryffindor 13:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

hey there, I actually was able to post my vote before you left your message. I hope it will help. Do you think you could take a look here Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. Her husband was dauphin, however he died before his father did, so he never became king of France. And also this case here Maria Josefa of Saxony, what do you think? Thanks alot... Gryffindor 17:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right, I just noticed that problem with Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. With Maria Josefa of Saxony I think it's pretty clear since she was the daughter of the Saxon King (not Elector), I just checked the German version it says she was "Prinzessin von Sachsen". But with the previous Marie-Josephe.. hm, was she in then "Kurfürstin", meaning Electress....? She must have had some title, I just wonder which one. Gryffindor 17:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I just posted some info that I found on her talk page. But you are right, we need more sources. Thanks for your vote on the other article. Gryffindor 17:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Charles, just letting you know I posted my argument and vote for lil' Vicky. --Mmounties (Talk) 01:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yea, well, heaven knows I don't always agree with you , but when you're right, you're right. I'm glad you arrived at the same conclusion that the naming convention prescribes in this case before putting it up for a vote. --Mmounties (Talk) 05:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Queen Anne-Marie

Good rollback, I was just about to do it myself. Nice talking with you. TKE 07:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ancestors of Nicholas II of Russia

Here's one right down your alley. I just know that at least one of the contributors misnamed the Dukes of Bavaria into Dukes of Bavaria-Munich (riechs of the soccer club). Can you straighten it out? I don't have the time for it. I just corrected the link the Sabina of Bavaria because I had moved that page). (Gotta clean up the what links heres, right?) Thanks, --Mmounties (Talk) 06:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

New Palace (Potsdam)

Hi Charles. Because I think Sanssouci's getting quite close to featured status following my recent spree of minor edits, I took the liberty of copying the first paragraph of your in-progress translation of New Palace, wikifying it and putting it there as a stub (crediting you via the edit summary, obviously) in order to turn that link blue.

I was thinking of proposing on Talk:Sanssouci that we at least think about going to WP:FAC imminently. However, if you think you might be quite close to finishing New Palace, then I'd hold back for a few days so we have a complete set of Sanssoucicruft related articles when it goes featured. Alternatively I can take the remainder of the translation off your hands if you're currently busy and don't mind having someone else finish it.

Please don't think I'm badgering you on this, if you'd rather finish it yourself in your own time there's really no pressing need for the article to be completed :-). But if it is close to being finished it would be a waste to press ahead unnecessarily. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 16:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem, I'll transfer the images myself if you like. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't. When you said you were terrible with adding images I assumed you meant the ones in the German version of the article (which are all GFDL and should certainly be transferred to Commons so they can be used across all Wikipedias).
I do intend on visiting Sanssouci the year after next (when I take a gap year and travel across Europe), and I'll take a camera with me, but that's not particularly helpful right now. Besides, I think the current photos on the dewiki version are enough. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 22:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Ai! No wonder there are no interior photos available (particularly public domain ones). Still, the exterior photos are pretty good and fill up the article sufficiently. Let me know whether you're transferring the photos yourself or would rather I did it. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 22:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let me know when you're done. Transferring photos is pretty simple, really - just save them to your hard drive then upload them to Commons. I always translate the picture descriptions and include a weblink to the original source, but I'm not even sure that's required. Still, once you're done I'll finish it off, and then I think we'll be ready to take Sanssouci to WP:FAC.
Btw, I noticed that your in-progress translation was unwikified. Don't know whether I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, but when I'm translating an article I always go to 'Bearbeiten' and then copy the raw wikitext over to my work in progress page, so I can always copy the wikiformatting as I do with the text. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 22:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That's great, thanks. I've added the pictures and transferred it to New Palace. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 12:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
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