User talk:Centrum99

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Hello, Centrum99, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:J1-JM267.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:E1-EM33.jpg

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[edit] License tagging for Image:Hhaplogroup.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:I1aHAPLOGROUP.jpg

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[edit] License tagging for Image:I1b1.jpg

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[edit] License tagging for Image:Lhaplogroup.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:I1b2.jpg

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:BoobooTop30Graph.jpg

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[edit] Copyright policy

I noticed that you have uploaded a number of figures from copyright sources. You should not be uploading copyright material to Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Copyrights. Thanks. Guettarda 21:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if I list the source and the author? Then I don't undestand, why the studies are made. It is natural to ask for allowance in the case of some demanding, sophisticated works, but if I contacted every author with a request for allowance of some triviality , I couldn't have time to do anything else. The articles about Y-haplogroups would look much worse without the maps. If you want, I can contact the authors and ask them for allowance. But how to contact John M Tanner, if I doesn't know, if he is still alive? Authors of old anthropological books from which I plan to take maps - like Coon, Biasutti or Lundman - are certainly dead already. Centrum99 20:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some pointers that you may need to understand Wkipedia better

Hello Centrum99! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @
Getting Started
Getting your info out there
Getting more Wikipedia rules
Getting Help
Getting along
Getting technical

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Personal Attacks - Warning

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Strothra 01:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. --Strothra 02:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you will be blocked for disruption. Shell babelfish 12:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Black versus white.jpg

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Black versus white.jpg

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Please specify the copyright information and source on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Strothra 06:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Please note that while you did provide the source of the image you did NOT comply with the NLD tag. You must provide liscencing information in addition to source information. You must also put a copyright tag on the image so that copyright may be easily determined. Further removal of the tags without compliance will be considered vadalism. --Strothra 06:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked for making repeated personal attacks

You have been temporarily blocked from editing for disrupting Wikipedia by making personal attacks. If you wish to make useful contributions, you are welcome to come back after the block expires. Gwernol 13:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Since you've edited anonymously to avoid your block, the block has been reset. Further attempts to evade the block will result in lengthening the block. Shell babelfish 16:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't edit anonymously. I edited from a different setting of my computer. Hence my nickname didn't appear in the discussion. Centrum99 20:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:E2-EM75.jpg

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[edit] On wars

Dealing with antropology and anything related to human races is hard to impossible due to sensitivity of the topic in the US and abundance of warriors here. I saw several absurd wars taking months and unless one is prepared to invest _lot of_ time it is futile to get involved in them.

It may be possible to cover these topics oneday when (if) mechanisms for atracting and identifying experts will be implemented.

Zdravim, Pavel Vozenilek 23:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your race model

I noticed you claim the following core races existed and formed all the populations of today:

THE AFRICAN GROUPS ("PALEONEGRIDS"):

1/ Proto-Khoisan groups in South Africa characterized by Y-haplogroup A and mtDNA haplogroups L1d/L1k (there are new discoveries of archaic mtDNA haplogroups and their system has been constantly changing). They are the oldest human group that diverged from the rest of mankind perhaps 100.000 years ago

2/ Proto-Nilotes in the south-east Sahara bearing a subclade of A (A3b2) - thus they were distantly related to Khoisan and represent a population that diverged from Khoisan a long time ago, headed for north, and developed extreme physical adaptation to the hot climate of the Sahara

3/ Proto-Pygmies in the forests of West-Central Africa (Y-haplogroup B+mtDNA haplogroups L1+L2). The second oldest human lineage; the dates of approximate divergence vary, but it was about 60 000-80 000 years ago

THE NON-AFRICAN GROUPS - belonging to the same Y-chromosomal lineage that separated maybe more than 70 000 years ago and - with one exception - left Africa:

4/ Neonegrids in the Sahara (E3a+L3), a dark population with somewhat Europoid traits that will head for south in the next 10 000 years and will play a key role in the formation of the "Negroid race". They were the only people of the non-African lineage that stayed in Africa.

5/ Paleoeuropids in the Near East (Y-macrohaplogroup F) that then massively expanded to Central Asia, Europe, India, even south-east Asia (New Guinea) and will continue to America

6/ Australoid groups in South Asia and Australasia (C+M) - a very broad cathegory for archaic forms, descendants of the first human wave (the so-called "Coastal Clan") probably more than 60 000 years ago

7/ Paleomongolids in east-central Asia (Mongolia, northern China) (C+M) - distantly related to Australoids, actually a cold-adapted form of Australoids that may have also penetrated to America 32 000 years ago

8/ Paleoainids in the Far East and also elsewhere (Andaman Islands) (Y-haplogroup D)

Why do you put them into 2 categories: Africans and non-Africans? Are you saying that there are really only 2 races and races 1 through 3 are just subraces of the African race and races 4 through 8 are just sub-races of the non-African race or were all 8 separate races? Also, you claim races 1 and 3 are the 2 oldest races. What is the third oldest of those 8 core races and which races are newest? Timelist 05:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I created the model according to the lineages of Y-haplogroups. All "Non-African groups" belong to the same lineage that (except one case) left Africa and, later than the African groups, radiated into many lineages within a relatively short time. You can take all eight groups as "separate races"; it is true that here the racial classification is a matter of opinion. One can argue that the most important thing is the length of time separation, another will argue that it's the magnitude of physical differences that is the key. But obviously, we can't take the length of time separation and common origin in one lineage as the most important thing, if any racial classification should make sense. Otherwise we would have to group mongol(o)ids like Buryats together with Australian Aboriginals into one "Coastal Clan-race". Centrum99 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:Biasutti-african_races.jpg

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:E3b.jpg

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[edit] Editing a closed AfD

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:I1b1a.jpg

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:I1b2a.jpg

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[edit] Rushton's theory on race

You seem to be quite an expert on the modern genetics of race. I was wondering what you make of the controversial race theory of J. Phillipe Rushton[[1]]. Rushton claims that mongolids are advanced race (i.e. largest brain but smallest sex organs) that negroids are the primitive race (smallest brain but biggest sex organs) and caucasoids are in the middle. Rushton believes that these racial differences are partly explained by the time period when archaic forms of the three major races branched off of the human evolutionary tree, whith newer forms being the most advanced. He the cites the Out of Africa model to argue that archaic Africans (later negroids) are the oldest branch of the human tree, and caucasoids are the second oldest branch of the human tree, and that mongoloids are the most recent and most advanced race. I know you argue that the modern races are primarily mixtures of older lineages, but if humans lived in Africa first, does that mean that the lineages that merged together to form the negroid race are generally the oldest lineages, and are the lineages that form the mongoloid race the newest human lineages? Minorcorrections 20:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should read my statements more carefully. There you will find answers to your questions. There basically exist no "new" and "old" lineages. The Europid race diverged ca. 45 000 years ago in the Near East and between 38-30 000 years ago expanded to the whole Eurasia and later (in a partly mixed form) as far as to America. The Mongolid race originated from one branch of the "Coastal Clan I", i.e. factually from one branch of the "australoid race". So far I haven't studied, when it happened, but it must have been quite shortly after they reached South-East Asia, i.e. some 60-50 000 years ago. When they came into contact with old europids (O+N+Q Y-lineages) about 35 000 years ago, they must have been already well adapted to the Siberian climate. The degree of adaptation to the cold climate in mongolids is higher, because they have been exposed to it maybe 20 000 years longer than Europeans, and, of course, the Siberian climate may have been even generally harsher than in Europe. Centrum99 08:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. What you are saying seems to contradict Rushton's data (though Rushton based his theory on genetic data that was available in 1989). According to Rushton mongoloids are more evolved than caucasoids who are more evolved than negroids because of the time period when archaic forms of these three main races emerged. According to Rushton negroids emerged 200,000 years ago, caucasoids emerged 110,000 years ago, and mongoloids emerged 41,000 years ago.[[2]] Rushton concluded that archaic negroids emerged 200,000 years ago because that is the date when modern humans first appeared in Africa (i.e. that's the age of the mitochondrial Eve). Since fossil evidence shows that anatomically modern humans first appeared in the middle east (a caucasoid region of the world) about 110,000 years ago, Rushton seems to have concluded that the earliest forms of the caucasoid race emerged 110,000 years ago. And since geneticist had concluded that there was a caucasoid/mongoloid split 41,000 years ago, Rushton concluded that mongoloids emerged 41,000 years ago. But the dates you provide are all more recent, and you are saying that mongoloids branched off of australoids, not caucasoids. But this seems to contradict the chart by Cavali-Sforza which is more consistent with Rushton's model:

Image:DNAtree.gif

I realize that the major races of physical anthropology are kind of simplistic in light of all the new information about various clans and lineages, but since all these clans and lineages just ended up interbreeding with others in their geographic region, doesn't it make most sense to simply define race by the geographic region of ones ancestors. If so, when did modern humans first appear in the negroid regions of the world (sub-Saharan Africa), when did modern humans first appear in a caucasoid region of the world (middle east, Europe, South Asia) and when did modern humans first appear in the mongoloid region of the world (North East Asia, the America). Minorcorrections 03:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The "racial tree" is absolutely non-sensical. It erroneously connects groups that are partly mixed, but who have no common origin. For example, Ethiopians and Khoisans are grouped together due to the presence of A-paternal lineages in their gene pool, yet these lineages in Ethiopians are of minor importance. Nilotes and Bantus have nothing in common historically, the only thing that can group them together are paternal Bantu lineages in some Nilotic tribes (hence it also depends on, what Nilotes were studied). South Chinese and Thais are grouped together with Pacific Islanders and Aborigines due to their common maternal M-lineages. On the other hand, in other Mongoloid groups, the dominant connecting factors with Caucasoids were paternal lineages (N+O+Q) etc. It simply depends on, what genes you choose and what an importance you attribute to them. A racial classification done by this method is misleading and even absurd. By the way, grouping Mongols close to Caucasians is an utter nonsense that probably results from the choice of tested subjects, who can't be representative of the Mongolian population.

I talked about the human genetic tree elsewhere, so I think you should read it one more carefully. But as for Europoids (Caucasoids), it can be said that they came into being ca. 45 000 years ago somewhere in the Near East, because they all share some Y-haplogroups of Y-macrohaplogroup F that originated in that area at this time. Between ca. 38-30 000 years ago they grandiosely expanded to Asia and Europe (and later even to America, albeit somewhat mixed with paleomongolids).

Europeans came into being as a mixture of three Caucasoid Y-lineages (R1b, R1a, I) during the last ice age (30-8 000 years ago). Hence they have a common history 20 000 years long. They were only recently (8000 years ago) influenced by a new Caucasoid wave from Anatolia bringing Y-haplogroups J and E3b1. This mixture is present in modern Europeans at various percentages, quite strong in Greece, Albania or South Italy, but very weak or non-existent in isolated regions of Western Europe. The average contribution is ca. 20%. Thus, modern Europeans are still predominantly European Ice Age Hunters. Centrum99 22:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPA

With regards to your comments on Talk:Caucasoid race: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Strothra 12:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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