Talk:Causes of autism

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Contents 1 Disease models 2 Genetic introgression 3 Neurodiversity 4 title change 5 Buggy references 6 Poverty as a cause 7 Cleanup: repetitive. 8 References 9 Men Over 40 Increases Risk? 10 Derrick Lonsdale 11 "TV may cause Autism" 12 my crazy personal theory 13 Merging 14 Unsourced, non-notable

[edit] Disease models

Some of the 'disease models' are not. For example, extreme male brain is consistent with neurodiversity and social construct. Also, Genetics is not necessarily a disease-oriented etiology theory. Neurodivergent 17:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to rearrange if you have a better model. I did duplicate the genetic link to the neurodiversity section just because there are alternative interpretations. I could agree that the "extreme maleness theory" could be a neurodiversity theory. What made me keep it in the disease section is the connection with neonatal testosterone which I find highly suspect and disease-oriented. --Rdos 19:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Nah, biological differences don't imply or prove pathology. Anyway, I'm not sure how best to arrange, but the 'social causes' section doesn't seem right. Maybe there are 3 types of explanations: (1) Physical disorder, (2) Purely psychological disorder, (3) Not a disorder at all. Neurodivergent 22:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your types of explanations. Maybe the categories are too strict. What about primarily physical disorder, primarily psychological disorder or primarily a difference? This group does match my current groupings. I'll change the section names accordingly. --Rdos 06:38, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that none of the explanations are clearly in a single category. For example, trauma could amplify a genetic predisposition. The social construct theory, however, is definitely not a psychological explanation, and I believe it should be classified along with neurodiversity in a separate section. Neurodivergent 14:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the current state of the article is compelling. It clearly represents all sides. --Rdos 17:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I even added the 'blanket term' theory. I think it truly presents all significant theories to date. Neurodivergent 17:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic introgression

Unfortunately, I don't believe genetic introgression is citable in relation to autism. Did a quick google search and came up empty. Neurodivergent 16:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

You are probably right. Look at the introgression section I added to Heritability of autism. It might me original research, but I rather like to think that it follows from the available data, so it shouldn't be anything else than a logical conclusion, and thus not OR. I suppose you can delete it here. It doesn't add much to the argument --Rdos 17:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I understand the threshold for OR is 'easy verifiability'. This doesn't qualify. I think I'll just delete it from both articles. Neurodivergent 17:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neurodiversity

The claim that "no theories based on the neurodiversity model have been proposed by scientists" might not be quite true. Check Baron-Cohen's paper on high functioning autism as a difference. Neurodivergent 17:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] title change

Over at the discussion page for the Asperger syndrome, I have proposed that the title "Causes of autism" be changed to something along the lines of "Asperger syndrome controversies". That title more accurately reflects the content of this article. In addition, it would make the AS article a bit more user friendly to have a similarly titled MAIN ARTICLE section: Here's how it is now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome#Causes_and_etiology

Discuss please! Ycaps123 19:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It cannot use Asperger's syndrome in the name. Most of the information has been collected from the autism article. I think this article should concentrate on the causes of both autism and AS. Even if it is controversial if autism and AS is the same thing, any differences can be pointed out explicitly. --Rdos 08:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

They aren't really pleased with the idea on the AS discussion board either. I guess that I'm outnumbered. Oh well, that's life I suppose... Ycaps123 09:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Buggy references

The numbering doesn't link correctly - eg ref 23 in th text points to ref 26 in teh references section. (The title on that one should probably say "Little Canaries: California Stats" rather than just the "California Stats" that one might think pointed to an official State of Ca publication... but the site looks rather good, especially with its description of what the owner is and is doing with it.) Midgley 09:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to correct. Most of the information has been migrated from the autism, Aspergers and Autism epidemic articles. --Rdos 09:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

"While the etiology of autism is largely unknown" - lines like this should be 'common knowledge' enough not to require a citation, I sould suggest. 11th Aug 2006

[edit] Poverty as a cause

Why didn't any list poverty as a cause? I think there has been some sources, especially that the autistic rate is usually higher in the developing world.

No, in fact, early evidence suggested autism was more common among affluent families. Thinking today is that its prevalence does not depend on socio-economics. Autism has not been screened, for the most part, in the developing world in order to determine its prevalence. Neurodivergent 19:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by affluent families? You mean the middle class? I mean the autistic rate is higher in Africa and the Middle East than in the United States and Canada. So that study must've been inaccurate.

You must be thinking of a different condition. There are no epidemiological studies of autism from the Middle East and Africa, AFAIK. For social class comparisons, see [1][2][3][4]. Neurodivergent 14:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I wish I had it in front of me, but the Rolling Stone article "The Kids with the Faraway Eyes" back in '79 quoted Rimland and Lovaas both as saying that the list of parents of autistic children looked like a page from Who's Who. Typically it has been parents who were highly successful scientists, musicians, or academics who had Kanner-type autistic children. You might also want to read Paul Collins' Not Even Wrong -- it sets you straight not only on what autism can be like, but who an autistic person is. --Bluejay Young 04:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup: repetitive.

I was adjusting the INN for Thiomersal in accordance with WP policy. The degree of repetition, along with some internal inconsistency, caused me to add this tag. Midgley 16:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

The references are not done correctly in this article. See Asperger syndrome for an example of how to clean them up. Please update the referencing mechanism. Sandy 11:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Men Over 40 Increases Risk?

Just read this article:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article1362734.ece

Anyone think we could merge this information and if so, where would it be best placed?--Saintlink 08:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably under the Heritability of Autism or something similar. Also, it would be important to note that the study, while having a very large sample size, was focused entirely on the ethnic group of Israeli Jews, and does not include details such as the prevalence of Autism among the fathers. Whether or not this study would apply to other ethnic groups still needs to be tested. - Hahnsoo

[edit] Derrick Lonsdale

Derrick Lonsdale has been removed from See also by an editor who has an issue with his work. I am not defending his research merely saying that he has done work that some consider to be of value and that has been cited in discussions. I have restablished the addition - if this talk page reaches a concensus that he goes, that's fine but unilateral removal is not correct. Even if his work is wrong, for NPOV purposes reference should be made to it to ensure all POV are embraced. See also The study, Lonsdale D and Shamberger R J (2000) "A clinical study of secretin in autism and pervasive developmental delay." Journal of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, Vol 10 (4), pp 271-280, has been cited by the National Autistic Society.^[1] TerriersFan 03:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ "Secretin and autistic spectrum disorders", The National Autistic Society

If we're going to list people in See Also, why not list all well known persons ever associated with autism? Frankly, Lonsdale is not even well known. First time I hear of him, and believe me, that says quite a bit. BTW, there are many double-blind studies on secretin, most of them indicating its effectiveness is at most equal to placebo. Uncontrolled studies by Lonsdale are of little value in comparison. Neurodivergent 05:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Neurodivergent is more or less right about how see also links are dealt, particularly with regard to biographies. If the association with a particular article is strong enough to make such linking reasonable, and you want to avoid having your link addition reverted, it is generally easier to incorporate the link into the text of an article in a way that explains the association, rather than simply adding a see also link. Sometimes a good explanation is also needed on the talk page. As far as Lonsdale is concerned, there may well be reason to mention his contributions to understanding the causes of autism and to developing autism therapies. Ombudsman 17:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I have removed the link . TerriersFan 17:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "TV may cause Autism"

I beleive the real reasoning here is lack of attention from parents, but I'll let the paper speak for itself. DOES TELEVISION CAUSE AUTISM? (cornell.edu) by Michael Waldman, Sean Nicholson, and Nodir Adilov, originally found at science.slashdot.org 207.145.133.34 15:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd wait a bit on this paper. Rumor on the internet is that it's a prank. Neurodivergent 19:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The first thing I thought of when I read the abstract was that it was a prank - the methodology alone seems to be pretty flawed (only correlations), and in all of my exposure to the subject, I've never heard anything about this. Seems like something that needs more research before posting. Unless more than one study or researcher produces a link, it's suspect. WLU 19:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I was about to come in here and say we need a section about television causing autism. --Macarion 20:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen it mentioned more than once in a couple of media, so I'm now in favour of putting it into the article. I'll give it a whirl if no-one else has.WLU 02:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] my crazy personal theory

i have my own personaltheory which i already posted on the "autism" page but i think it fits better here. anyway i think that autism may in some cases be the expression of brillience (intelectual) to such an extent that it obscures all else. an autistic person just doesnt care what other people think because they feal so intelectually superior. they dont care to interact with these "inferior" people and more importantly they feel no need to explain what they are thinking because they feel that no one else would have any chance at understanding it, and they are probably correct.

i think this is true because i think i might have some mild very mild symptoms of autism and thats in some ways, the way that i think. if i took those ideas to an extreme i would completely gnore everyone else because i just wouldnt care.

i dunno something to consider

As I also said on the talk:autism page, this is original research. Could a more experienced wikipedian correct me, are we allowed to remove stuff like this from talk pages? WLU 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging

• Frequency of Autism

Any thoughts on merging frequency of autism into this article? If there is no interest the tag should be removed. It seems there would a lot of work involved to merge the frequency article into this cause article. Alan.ca 18:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose The article is long enough to stand alone. It can be summarized back to the two articles via summary style. Sandy (Talk) 18:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced, non-notable

Removing to talk page - speculative, unsourced, weasle words:

Susan Bryson has claimed that some individuals with autism have evidence of trauma to the brain stem in early development, and that a small portion of the thalidomide victims have become autistic. The victims' limbs were normal unless thalidomide use continued later in the pregnancy. The brain stem anomaly's most striking feature is inability to focus attention away from a stimulus in a short time like neurotypicals, as demonstrated in a psychological test.

Some people claim the inability to shift attention quickly interferes with the ability to read nonverbal language where fast attention shifts are needed (such as eye language), suggesting that being nonverbal is not a primary feature of autism. Strong and shiftless focus is, however, a benefit in some areas like science, programming, and advanced mathematics. This is supported by the monotropism hypothesis.

Sandy (Talk) 14:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)