Talk:Caucasian Albania

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As I've noted in the edit history, "Caucasian Albania" gets 643 Google hits, Aghbania gets 137 and Alwania gets only 15. Nikola 07:08, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the statement about the Kish church. It was originally thought to be very ancient, but after further study the current church was dated to the twelfth century. The site has been in use since 3000 B.C., but that doesn't make it an ancient church, just a medieval church on an ancient site. Isomorphic 18:58, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] About invention of Albanian Alphabet

I have added a refference to Moses Kalankaytuk about invention of Albanian alphabet by Mesrob Mashtots:

According to Moses Kalankaytuk, the Albanian alphabet was invented by Mesrob Mashdots, an Armenian monk, theologian and linguist (see Moses Kalankaytuk, "The History of Aluank", I, 27 and III, 24).

I also added the external link to the book "The History of Aluank" by Moses Kalankaytuk: Movses Kalankatuatsi. "The History of Aluank" (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/index.html). Translated from old Armenian (Grabar) by Sh.V.Smbatian, Yerevan, 1984 (In Russian).

All known facts should be mentioned, if you affraid...

Regards, Rovoam 05:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Artsakh and Albania

Yes, it is true - Artsakh was part of Albania! But it is also true that before it was part of Armenia and before - even Urartu.

Other editors: Please, see this post from Nagorno-Karabakh talkpage in which I give succint info and also bring maps of ancient Urartu to prove falseness of Rovoam's allegations. Also look at this post for background info on Rovoam's intentions. This user's recent actions are currently investigated by ArbCom, for details, please see here--Tabib 09:30, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
Tabib, one of the map of Urartu actually covers the area of Karabakh during VIII c. BC, isn't it? It seems to me it covers even much bigger area... Take your glasses and see for yourself:

<removed link to deleted image>

And please remember - you published this map, not me!
And another thought. Do you think all these maps of Urartu are correct? Don't you know or assume, that those maps are just a reconstruction and very rough estimate? Have you ever asked yourself when people invented the first map? Do we have any Urartian or Assyrian ancient maps? Think about all of these issues! Then you'll understand, how weak your arguments are!
Rovoam 00:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What Albanians have in Artsakh? - There are no traces of their presence!

Tabib! I have a question for you. There are a lot of Christians churches and other monuments in Artsakh, and those monuments are VERY old (V c, X c, etc). And there are just few Muslim monuments, and all of them are much younger (the oldest was built on XVIII century). How do you explain this?

You may say, perhaps, that those ancient Christians monuments were built by Albanians, not by Armenians. But how you explain Armenian inscriptions on ALL of these ancient monuments? Most of these inscriptions were done at the time, when those monuments were first built. For example, in Gandzasar monastery there are Armenian inscriptions, which were made by the founder of the place (by the prince Hasan Jalalyan), i.e. they are dated XIII century. If builders were Albanians, why don't we see some Albanians inscriptions (in addition or instead of Armenians)? - However, there are thousands of Armenians inscriptions everywhere in Karabakh and none of Albanians. Why? How would you expalin this?! At least to yourself? Or you don't care about actual facts, do you?! Rovoam 00:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Those ancient Christians monuments were build by the Caucasian Albanians, back then they were among the first Christians. The Caucasian Albanian Kick Church dates back to the first century. Its the oldest Christian Church in the Caucasus and among the oldest in the world.

I second that, if you look at what date those monument were build you would find out that most date back to AD 550. Thats because during that time Albanian meliks were overthrow and their role of Christianity weakened in the country the prayers were conducted in Armenian language in the churches, Albanian language was oppressed and led out. Next time do some research of your own please. Baku87 19:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)Baku87


The Albanian language was not "oppressed", they people assimilated, there is a difference. The Albanian Church is not the oldest state church, the Armenian Apostolic Church pre dates the Albanian church by atleast 50 years.--Moosh88 01:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rovoam’s provocative vandalism and POV pushing

Dear fellow editors,

Rovoam deliberately attempts to remove a paragraph in the page which goes as follows: “…Another historical part of Albania, Artsakh (present-day Nagorno-Karabakh), is presently occupied by Armenian military forces. Armenian historians claim that Artsakh has always been a part of Armenia...”. This paragraph was written long ago by third party editors not involved in present dispute and simply states a commonly known historical fact that Artsakh was part of ancient state of Caucasus Albania. Whereas I can agree to a different formulation of the paragraph, I cannot close my eyes to Rovoam’s flagrant POV pushing aimed at erasing from this page of the mentioning of Artsakh being part of Caucasus Albania.

Rovoam first started his disruptive actions and aggressive POV pushing in Nagorno-Karabakh page. His edits are characterized by extreme degree of maliciousness, blatant and repeated manipulation with the facts and intentional confusion of public opinion. His case is being currently considered by ArbCom and I am confident that this person will definitely be banned for his personal attacks and dishonest behavior.

During our month-long and more than 200 page-long discussions (or disputes, to be more precise) within the Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh the question of Artsakh and its relationship to Caucasus Albania has been extensively discussed and addressed. For detailed info please see primarily, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Artsakh_province_of_Caucasian_Albania; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Albanian_province_of_Artsakh_and_Armenian_claims; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Devil.92s_advocacy_and_the_irrefutable_facts Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Maps_comment as well as the rest of the discussion.

Also, please see the map of Urartu with Rovoams “arguments” posted above. Rovoam, acting once again in his blatant and malicious style of arguing (softest terming I could find to depict what he’s doing now), intentionally LIES to you all, alleging that this map shows present-day Karabakh area within the borders of Urartu. The above mentioned map of Urartu, originally posted by me (see, [1]) and now reposted by Rovoam actually disproves his allegations and clearly shows that even in its widest borders, Urartu (which btw was not an Armenian state at all) did not comprise the territory of present day Karabakh. The territory of present-day Karabakh is situated farther to the east from the borders shown in the map. Rovoam knows well that most of you are not aware of the geographical location of Karabakh and therefore he can say even the most nonsense thing and still hope that he will not be exposed. This is an outrageous and unprecedented conduct, when someone denies the facts at hand, trying to confuse other less informed editors and shamelessly calls his opponent to “take [his] glasses and see for [himself]”, instead of following his own advice!…

Rovoam also touched upon Armenian inscriptions on Albanian monuments to substantiate his senseless and already disproved allegations that “there is no traces of their presence”. In this regard I would also call other editors to look at earlier discussions regarding the subjugation of Albanian church to Armenian church following the Arab invasion in VIII c. and subsequent assimilation of the Caucasus Albanians by Armenians on the one hand and Turks (present-day Azeris) on the other. Here are the relevant posts from earlier discussions which touched upon this issue: Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Historical_fact:_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_the_Armenian_under_Arabs; [[2]] as well as previous post on Artsakh and Albania and the rest of the discussion.

If Rovoam thinks he will get along with his tricks, he is deeply mistaken because, as in previous Nagorno-Karabakh page discussions I will continue to expose his malicious tricks and lies one by one and will eventually get him expelled from Wikipedia for his previous insults on me and dishonest editing and arguing behaviour. --Tabib 19:12, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV vs Azeri POV

I have edited the article, providing the following text:

According to Azeri-Turkic point of view, Artsakh (present-day Nagorno-Karabakh) was a historical part of Albania. However Armenian historians claim that Artsakh has been a part of Armenia for more them millenia. This opinion is supported by most of non-Armenian historians as well, and it is based on ancient sources (Strabo, Plinius Secundos, Clavdius Ptolemeus).

And I would like to understand, what's wrong with the above statement?

Tabib, please avoid personal attacks in your answer. I usually don't read your answer when you start accusing me of something... (I am not a crimanial and I am not an Armenian - and I can prove this!).

Rovoam 19:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors,
After User:Rovoam's numerous personal attacks, his public insults on my address calling me "Turkish vandal", "sick" "uneducated and uncivilized person" etc., I see no point of arguing with him. Therefore, I will direct my efforts at preventing Rovoam to confuse you by his deceptive posts and edits.
Rovoam's edit above is an extreme example of bias. The question of Artsakh being part of historical Caucasus Albania has been discussed in detail in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. I have proved bringing lots of authoritative sources, even Armenian sources, that Artsakh's historical belonging to Caucasus Albania is not an "Azeri POV", as Rovoam claims, but is a well-established and commonly accepted historical fact. Please, see the following posts, in which I have already addressed Rovoams nationalistic claims: Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Artsakh_province_of_Caucasian_Albania; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Albanian_province_of_Artsakh_and_Armenian_claims; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Devil.92s_advocacy_and_the_irrefutable_facts; also Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Historical_fact:_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_the_Armenian_under_Arabs; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#On_details_of_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_Armenian:_excerpts and also, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Rovoam.92s_proposition_to_solve_the_conflict (last post where Rovoam, who previously stated "Karabakh was never part of Albania", suddently accepts the facts, but now, as part of his strategy, prefers to deny again.)
The previous discussion during which we extensively discussed Artsakh, Caucasus Albania and borders of "Greater Armenia" took more than 200 pages and is still ongoing. Rovoam by vandalizing and introducing biased edits into this page, tries to confuse public opinion, discredit me (he knows that he himself is already discredited) and eventually, push his bias to Wikipedia. I call you not to be deceived by Rovoam! --Tabib 19:53, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Please Tabib, for the sake of Wikipedia, remove from your user page Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not, because this is becoming really hypocritic, given your answers like those above. "Proving" require a personal research, and is restricted under Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not. This entry is obviously POV, in that that it misrepresent positions, and this regardless of what you prove. An example here, is again, your refusal to accept and recognize name and word conventions, by continuisly using an Azeris term for the name of an author in the articles, by ignoring that the rest of the world use another name. This is simply against name conventions and a distrespect in that that this is English Wikipedia, and the English name conventions(when they exist, in this cases they do exist). Please stop using Unwiki terms like "proving," and stop introducing terms in articles, and claims, that are find nowhere other than from Azeris nationalist authors. This is clearly POV, to present a minority point of view as majority, it is as well unwiki, to claim to justify your edits by claiming you have proven something. We aren't editing an entry about fundamental mathematic here. Fadix (My Talk) 19:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Dear User:Tabib! Would it be so difficult for you to repeat your argumentrs here once again? Just copy/paste your previus posts here, because I cannot find your answers. I really don't understand why you removing references to well known historical facts. If I missed something from your previous messages and haven't answer, it does not mean that I agreed with you. I am still trying to understand your Turkic POV, as you can see! Rovoam 22:27, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point [3]. Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:09, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected. Protected for long enough. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Since article is protected, can you make these 2 changes:

1.Post the map of Caucasian Albania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasus03.jpg

2. Create a link to article about Udi language (if there is such).

Thanks. User:PANONIAN

I disagree with that map. It is not an academic map and it is not correct. Even if accepted conditionally, it reflects only a certain historical period when parts of Albania were occupied by Greater Armenian kingdom in II-I cc. BC. Moreover, this map also has incorrect borders for Iberia, which controls Albanian province of Utik (i.e. the part of land in that "map" which lies in between the territory of "Greater Armenia" and "Albania"). Historically, Albania consisted of what is mostly the present-day Azerbaijan, including such provinces as Utik (shown as part of Iberia in that "map"), Artsakh, Siunik, Paytakaran (shown as part of Armenia (or Greater Armenian kingdom, to be more precise).
The issue of borders of Caucasian Albania, and especially most controversial issue of Artsakh's belonging to either Albania or Armenia was discussed extensively in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. You can see the links to these previous messages in my postings above.
Unfortunately, in historiography (particular the Western historiography), Caucasian Albania was much less studied than the Greater Armenian kingdom. That's why there are many historical maps of the ancient Caucasus which show (sometimes overexagerrated) borders of this ancient empire, but there is virtually no Western maps showing the original borders of Caucasian Albania, as well as the borders of this state in subsequent centuries (I c. AD and esp. IV-VIII cc.) when Caucasian Albania did return most of its lands occupied previously by the outside powers. I will try to find some alternative maps to suggest to you, so I believe we can discuss this issue further.--Tabib 14:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tabib's POV is not a NPOV

Tabib is pushing Azeri-Turkish propaganda, calling it NPOV. All his opponents are taged with a "vandal" label. This person just cannot accept other opinions, which are different with his own. He is not able and not willing to compromise or nagotiate anything. (posted by User:64.136.2.254 01:50, Jun 15, 2005 (a anon IP used by vandal Rovoam text attribution by --Tabib 13:46, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

  • The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci, trans. from old Armenian by C. J. F. Dowsett, London: Oxford University Press, 1961.

“Caucasian Albania and Armenian conquests” section should be edited. It does not make much sense. It insists that Albanians were “assimilated politically and culturally” by Armenians, while one of the Albanian tribes, Udis, lives in Azerbaijan to this day. Udis are a living proof of the baselessness of such statement. Udis are not Armenians, their language belongs to Northeast Caucasian language family, and they are mostly Russian Orthodox by religion. They have their distinct culture and folklore. Statements such as “By the 8th century—following the assimilations—the term “Aghvank” lost its ethnic and political meaning” are far from factual accuracy.

Also, the last paragraph of this section is clearly a propagandistic attack on Azeri side. Basically the purpose of such propaganda is to lay claims on some Azeri lands, therefore nationalistic circles in Armenia try to deny the existence of Albanian people and insist that they were completely assimilated by Armenians centuries ago, which is not true. I hope someone will edit this section and make it more consistent with the Wikipedia polices of NPOV. Grandmaster 10:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Movses Kaghankatvatsi's passage

I just editted the passage containing Movses Kaghankatvatsi's quotation from his "History of Aghvank, I.4, to clarify the context of Aran's inheritance of Aghvank. The old quotation makes it sound as if Aran "inheritted" the area from his parents, whereas he was appointed as the prince of Agvhank. Here is a translation of the complete chapter 4 from Russian. It's from the link contained at the end of the article pointing to Kaghankatvatsi's complete Russian translation (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html). I can see there are Azeri and Armenian users monitoring this article, so I assume they know Russian as well:) If you find any mistakes, feel free to correct.

Book 1, Chapter 4

Formation of the Principality of Aghvank by Vagharshak

Here starts the history of the principality of the country of Aghvank. From the beginning of the creation of the human race to the Armenian king Vagharshak, we cannot tell anything reliable to the listeners about those who live near the high mountains of Caucasus. Upon establishing order among the northern residents, he called representatives of savage tribes, living in the northern plain and in the foothills of Caucasus mountains, in the plains and gorges to the south, to the place where a valley begins, and ordered them to stop violence and godlessness, and to obediently pay royal tributes. Then the king appointed chiefs and rulers to them, a leader of whose, by Vagharshak's order, was appointed someone from the family of Sisakan, one of the descendants of Yafet, named Aran, who inherited the plains and mountains of Albania beginning from the river Yeraskh (Araks) up to the castle of Hunarakert. After Aran's soft taste, this country was called Aghvank, as due to his soft taste he was called Aghu. Many brave and wise descendants of this Aran, as they say, were appointed by Vagharshak Partev as his subordinates (vice-princes) and generals (of groups of thousands).--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections on Strabo's quotations on Armenia

I just made a correction to the part of the article that stated "according to strabo, Armenia was a small country at the sources of euphrates and tigris." Strabo never limits Armenia to the sources of the two rivers, and in fact he says that one of the two parts of Armenia, the one inheritted by Artashes, was around the city of Artashat (which is in southern Transcaucasia, modern Armenia). Here is the full passage.

[5] According to report, Armenia, though a small country in earlier times, was enlarged by Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great,9 but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told. Strabo, Geography, 11.14.5

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.14.1

Also, Strabo doesn't say Armenia was small originally, only in "earlier times," which means before Artashes and Zariadris expanded it, which is early II c BC. In fact he earlier states that Armenia was a large country ruling "whole of Asia" before Median king Astiages, which is around 600 BC, which is consistent with Movses Khorenatsi's account of Armenia's king Paruyr Skayordi defeating Assyrians and taking Ninveh in 600's, and being a powerful king (along with the subsequent kings Hrachya and Tigran Yervandyan).

[5] In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages, it was deprived of that great authority by Cyrus and the Persians, although it continued to preserve much of its ancient dignity; and Ecbatana was winter residence4 for the Persian kings, and likewise for the Macedonians who, after overthrowing the Persians, occupied Syria; and still today it affords the kings of the Parthians the same advantages and security. Strabo, Geography, 11.13.5

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.13.1 --TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction of date when Aran founded Aghvank

I just corrected the date in the article referring to Movses Kaghankatvatsi's account of creation of Principality of Aghvank by king Vagharshak. Vagharshak ruled in early II c. BC, according to data given us by numerous ancient Armenian historians, including Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Here is an exceprt from his "History of Aghvank", I.3:

[coming] from the family of these Parthians, there were 26 kings in Armenia - from Vagharshak till Artashir, son of Vramshapuh. Ruled they for 620 years. Here the the rule of the Arshakuni dynasty as well as the patriarchy of the family of St. Grigor were cut off. I.3 (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html)

The Russian text at the site reads:

Из [рода] этих парфян в Армении царствовало двадцать шесть царей – от Валаршака до Арташира, сына Врамшапуhа. Царствовали они шестьсот двадцать лет. Тут прекратилось царствование [династии] Аршакидов и патриаршество рода святого Григора.

The Arshakuni dynasty ended in 428 ad. This places Vagharshak at 192 BC. Exactly when Artashes started ruling according to Western accounts, leading to many historians conclude that Vagharshak was another name given to Artashes.

Khorenatsi too is talking about that time when he writes about Aran founding Aghvank ("History of Armenia" II.8. Actually Kaghankatvatsi took Khorenatsi's account almost verbatim).--TigranTheGreat 00:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I've moved this back to Caucasian Albania per request of Nikola, who got this a bit muddled I agree with the move. It seems to be by far the most popular usage in English, still (see the top of the page). For example, it is used by this website here [4], which is appears to be a specialist website on the history of the region. None of the other spellings seem to stand out in any way - 'Aghbania' seems to be a particularly rare form. If there is evidence otherwise, I should be glad to see it. Morwen - Talk 13:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Palimpsest

Shouldn't the ancient Albanian Christian lectionary translated by prof.Zaza Aleksidze be mentioned in this article?128.214.205.4 17:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Grandmaster 19:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assimilation

This article claims that Albanians were completely assimilated by 8th century, but see this quote from Chronicles by Zachariah Kanakertsi, 17th century Armenian historian:

Some man from the tribe of alvans, who are now called udis, from the alvanian town of Gandzak, went to the holy monastery of Gandzasar, where the residence of alvanian catholicos is located, and became a disciple of Catholicos Ovannes.

Закарий Канакерци. Хроника.

Некий человек из племени алван, которых ныне зовут удинами, из алванского города Гандзака, отправился в Святую обитель Гандзасара, где находится престол алванского католикоса, и стал учеником католикоса Ованнеса. [5]

This should be corrected. Udis live in Azerbaijan to this day. Grandmaster 07:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

That map is ridiculous. C.Albania never had such borders. Especially in the 5th-8th centuries.--Eupator 13:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If it ever had such borders, that'd be after the 4th century, and the given time frame seems perfectly accurate. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the map. Parishan 05:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the old map was more accurate. If you look at any map from this period you will see the distinct borders between Albania, Armenia, and Iberia. At no point in its history did Albania ever have rule over Nakhichevan, Lake Sevan, or even Paytakaran. I have noted that maps showing Albania with such borders can only be found on extremely pro-Azerbaijani websites which hope to claim the provinces of Syunik, Vayots Dzor, and Gegharkunik from present-day Armenia. -- Clevelander 15:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Paytakaran is mentioned in v.1, ch.12 of Moses of Kalankatuyk's History of Aluank as a part of Caucasian Albania in the 4th century. So is Syunik (v.2, ch.28 - 7th century), which back then included Vayots Dzor as well. Not so sure about Nakhichevan. Parishan 00:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I just read it. It speaks of a certain Sanatruk, who rebelled in the city of Paytakaran against Armenians with Sassanid support.--Eupator 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. It also says that the city of Paytakaran was situated in Caucasian Albania. The city is believed by many scholars (e.g. Patkanian) to be present-day Beylagan (Azerbaijan). Parishan 02:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/a/u/Talk%7ECaucasian_Albania_ddab.html"