Talk:Catalanic
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[edit] educational
ok, i'm not even going to bother to ask... but anyway, the judeo-latin article is rather educational.Gringo300 09:19, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Crypto-Jews now?
Are you sure that there are "many" Crypto-Jewish communities in Spain? Do you have some reference? --Error 00:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article is absolute non-sense:
1.- There are indeed many descendants of Crypto-Jews in Spain and Portugal. But since the abolition of the Santa Inquisicion in 1821, there are no longer reasons to be a Crypto-Jew in Spain (i.e. to practice Judaism in private while in public you practice another religion, usually Catholicism), so you can call these people who live in the 21st Century Jews or descendants of Crypto-Jews, but no longer "Crypto-Jews".
[A note is needed here. "Crypto-Jew" can have many meanings today. In the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, New Mexico, the Catholic community is comprised entirely of Crypto-Jews, Sephardic origin. These people have had their traditions robbed. Often even the community's collective memory is imbalanced, because of the Inquisition. Many people are considered "Crypto-Jew", perhaps wrongly, if they fit the category of having been robbed of identity....
Such Jews are also known in Hebrew as ANUSIM, the singular being ANUSI, "those who were forced". Being a Crypto-Jew does not only mean knowing and fully practicing in secret. Not anymore.]
2.- I suppose that the descendants of Jews expelled from the "Corona de Aragon" in 1492 did keep their version of the Catalan language for a few generations. However, as far as I know, there are no written testimonies of this "Jewish Diaspora Catalan", and it must have died out long ago. Or it may have died out-- there are still pockets of Catalonian Jews in Mexico.
3.- Catalonian Jews use Catalan or Spanish, but never Catalanic: They speak exactly the same language as their gentile neighbours. Of course, Sephardi immigrants may be able to speak Sephardi (or Ladino). --Yerrux 20:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
- re;1: There are indeed. Your presumption, however, regarding the social status of Jews in Spain, is staggering. With crypto-Jews, we're talking about people who for five centuries have had, as a core part of their identity, hiding the fact that they are Jews. A decree made in 1821 did not remove the social stigma, and, in fact, the last of the anti-Jewish laws were not removed until the reign of Francisco Franco. Just because you cannot imagine a world in which Jews, crypto- or otherwise, don't feel free to live openly as Jews does not mean that such conditions do not exist. Many bnei anusim continue to live as "hidden Jews", preferring to keep their neighbors from knowing that they are actually Jews. Your presumption with respect to the sentiments of crypto-Jews is breathtaking.
- re;2: Just because you're unaware of the existence of Judæo-Catalan (קאטאלאנית), or as you say "Jewish Diaspora Catalan" does not negate its existence. Your statement "It must have died out long ago", which is apparently based on your poorly-researched personal opinion, is hardly noteworthy in the annals of scholarly research.
- re;3: Your assertion that Catalonian Jews use Catalán or Spanish, but never Catalanic is pretty much a non-sequitur. As an argument against the article, it holds no weight, since no claim is made, anywhere, by anyone, that anyone speaks Qatalanith. As for your assumption that "Sephardi immigrants may be able to speak Sephardi (or Ladino)", I'm flabergast. That statement makes no sense whatsoever, and, in fact, has absolutely no relevance whatsoever, to anything with which this article deals. Tomer TALK 06:15, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Tomer, crypto-Jew is a Jew who publicly practices a non-Jewish religion, while privately believing in Judaism. The best example of this are the jews of Belmonte in Portugal, who till the 20th Century went to Roman Catholic mass, while denying Christ's divinity in private. A Jew who prefers his neighbours not to know about it, is not necessarily a crypto-Jew. I've sent an email to the [1] Jewish Community of Barcelona asking them for information regarding this "Catalanic" language. I haven't found any proof of this language, and you haven't provided any evidence, either. Tell me, according to you is there also a Jewish version of the Basque and Galician languages?--62.6.139.12 15:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
- Dear anonymous editor. First, crypto-Jews often not only do not practice Judaism nor believe in it, but they often don't even know they're Jews. For more, go read at [2]. Second, I didn't make up Catalanic as you seem to believe. Most of my information came from [3]. According to me, as you so insidiously word it, no, there have never been Jewish versions of Basque or Gallego...although, according to [4] and other sources, there was a Judæo-Portuguese, into which any Judæo-Gallego may have subsumed. Let me know what you hear from the Jewish community of Barcelona, including how much of the community has been in Barce for more than 100 years. Tomer TALK 17:25, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Definition of Crypto-Judaism
According to Wikipedia, Crypto-Judaism "is the secret adherence to Judaism while publicly professing to be of another faith." --62.6.139.12 08:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- Interesting you should rely on a circular argument for support. When I have time, I'll go fix it. Tomer TALK 22:56, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
- Addendum: I think there's room to differentiate between Crypto-Jew and Crypto-Judaism, just as there is to differentiate between Jew and Judaism. Tomer TALK 23:50, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
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- Are you sure that "crypto-Jew" is commonly used for descendants of Jews who don't even know it? I thought it was only used for practitioners of (limited) Judaism. --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
- AFAIK, the difference between Jew and Judaism is that a Jew could not follow Judaism. By that rule, the descendant of force-converted Jews who does not practice the religion would be an ethnic Jew. There would be no need to call them "crypto-Jews". --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
<<...people who practice crypto-Judaism are referred to as "crypto-Jews">> (copied and pasted from Crypto-Judaism). Tomer, did you know that the links you offer in this discussion (namely [2], [3] and [4]) are dead? .--195.93.21.99 17:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Catalan Anusim today?
Today, except for the use of a number of Hebrew loanwords, there is little to distinguish the speech of the Catalonian Bnei Anusim and their fellow Jews, from the Catalan or Spanish spoken by their non-Jewish neighbors.
- Are there hidden Jews in Catalonia now? Fear and shadows talks about descendants of Jews who kept some traditions and have returned to Judaism, but while they reside in Barcelona, their ancestors recently immigrated from the Balearics, and from what I know the Majorcan Xuetas, because of the great pressure, left Judaism even in its hidden forms. Shouldn't it be Balearic Bnei Anusim, supposing they really exist? --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
"Today, except for the use of a number of Hebrew loanwords, there is little to distinguish the speech of the Catalonian Bnei Anusim and their fellow Jews, from the Catalan or Spanish spoken by their non-Jewish neighbors." Does anyone know if this alleged "Judeo-Catalanic" language so different from Catalan as to be considered an independent language? Are there any testimonies of this language, apart from the dodgy links offered by Tomer? There do exist 18th Century testimonies of Judeo-Portuguese in Leghorn/Livorno and Amsterdam, but I've never heard of Judeo-Catalan. --195.93.21.42 11:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
- To my knowledge there is no evidence that a distinct Jewish variety of Catalan has ever existed. Judeo-Catalan is not mentioned in any of the works on Catalan that I have read nor is any evidence of it cited in any scholarly work on Jewish languages with which I am familiar. The Catalan linguists I know are not aware of any such distinct variety. I once asked the great Jewish linguist Joshua Fishman about this, and he responded that he knew of no evidence for Judeo-Catalan. If there was such a language, it appears to be unattested. That is not to say that there are no records of Catalan written by Jews. I myself have read a bit of Catalan written by Jews around Girona, but there was nothing to distinguish it from the Catalan of gentiles. I should add that this isn't due to any lack of scholarly interest in the history of Jews in Catalonia. I own a two-volume collection of papers on the history of the Jews of Girona. There is no mention of a distinct Jewish variety of Catalan. In sum, Judeo-Catalan is a phantom. If anyone can provide evidence of the existence of Judeo-Catalan I would be most interest. By "evidence" I mean citation of characteristics distinguishing it from the Catalan of gentiles with quotation of supporting examples from actual texts.Bill 00:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
