Talk:Catahoula Leopard Dog

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Contents 1 Gentle? 2 The Catahoula Leotard Dog 3 Another response from catahoula owner 4 Different phenotypes 5 Another published description 6 And more web sites

[edit] Gentle?

I was surprised to read in the article that Catahoula Leopard Dogs are generally very loving and gentle with children.

From all that I've read, and my own experience, nothing could be further from the truth.

According to Bruce Fogle, DVM, author of The Encyclopedia Of The Dog, Hunters sometimes used the Catahoula to trail and tree raccoons, but this dominant breed is more at home acting the thug with recalcitrant boars. Breeding is based on survival of the fittest. He goes on to rate the dog unsuitable as a child's companion; unsuitable for urban life; difficult to train; may be troublesome with other dogs.

Of the 400 dog breeds and types mentioned in his book, this is the most damning description.

This puts emphasis on things that Fogle does not emphasize. In the four categories you mention, the trait is indicated ONLY by true/false icons, NOT by text, so that the book never says in text that the dogs are "unsuitable as a child's companion; unsuitable for urban life; difficult to train; may be troublesome with other dogs". Because they're indicated only by yes/no icons, all dogs are either, for example, "suitable as a child's companion" or "unsuitable as a child's companion" with no variations or shades of gray. None of these issues are called out specifically in the text. Elf | Talk 16:02, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Catahoulaleopard.com, a website dedicated to the breed says, Catahoula Leopard stock dogs outwork and outfight all other breeds of stock dogs when protecting their master, livestock, and property. They are the largest and most aggressive of the cattle dogs, bred to handle wild cattle and hogs in the roughest, most remote country. Catahoulas will also hunt coon, bear, or whatever else they are introduced to. These dogs are not good city dwellers... they need several acres to roam to be happy. A farm or ranch is really their element... ...They are more primitive psychologically than most breeds and need consistent obedience reinforcement... ...Not everyone needs them...not everyone can handle them...and not everyone should have them... ...These dogs fight restraint, and will hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully...

DogBreedInfo.com speaks of the breed's intolerance with strangers.

My own experience with Catahoulas is limited to the pair which frequent the local dog park. They are the terrors of the park, frightening both people and dogs alike. Why a city dweller would want such a dog is beyond me. Must be some sort of macho thing.

It is not my intention to disparage the breed. I'm sure they are great dogs doing what they've been bred for. But this article makes them look like they would make great family pets, and I just don't think that is the case at all. In my opinion, "good with children" means good with strange children, who may pull and poke a dog. Just because particular dogs are good with their families, does not necessarily make them good family pets, unless the nearest neighbor is forty miles away.

Despite my reservations, I did not want to just jump in and edit the article. I think some discussion would be in order. If I do not hear from anyone on the subject, I am changing the wording in the article to more accurately describe the breed. Wcrowe

Interesting question. I know only 2 Catahoulas, too, and they are sweet, friendly, well-trained, good around other dogs, and are also excellent dog agility dogs, which perhaps focuses their energy. I don't know how they are around children. They're around other dogs all the time and there's never been a problem. But the Catahoulas are still an evolving breed, so one might expect there to be a lot of variation. I'll see whether I can get more info from my catahoula-owning friend, who seems to know quite a bit about the breed. Elf | Talk 16:02, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm sure individual variations abound. I just want to draw attention to the fact that the Wikipedia article says generally very loving and gentle with children. I think this may be an exaggeration. I think our goal should be to be objective. 'In general' we all know that there is a great difference between, say, an American Pit Bull Terrier and, say, a Boston Terrier. In the case of the former, an individul dog may be friendly, but don't count on it. In the case of the latter, an individual dog may not be friendly, but they usually are. Yet if you read their respective Wikipedia articles, potential owners are cautioned in both cases that individual dogs can have temperament problems. This is the correct way to present these breeds. I don't think it would hurt to note that Catahoulas, like fox hound breeds, are probably best left in the hands of professionals as working dogs, and not as family pets.

BTW, I'm sorry I keep leaving my signature off these things.Wcrowe 16:37, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Forty lashes with a wet noodle!

Here's one response to my email call for info:

I am a professional dog trainer in Davis, CA. I am also a credentialed teacher. One of my interests is dog bite prevention and how to build good relationships between children and dogs. I find that there is a strong correlation between how dogs have been socialized around children and whether they have been allowed to form good associations between children and good things happening to the dog. This is much more important for dog bite prevention than the particular breed of the dog. All breeds of dogs are capable of biting children. I have had a couple of Catahoulas go through my classes and I am well acquainted with several others. The Catahoulas that I know adore children. They seek them out and truly put the children in danger of being licked to death. I have seen them ignore food and other dogs to greet a small child. All of the Catahoulas that I know have been properly socialized with young children and this is the key to all successful dog/child relationsips. These are my experiences. Catahoulas are resource guarders, similar to Border Collies. They like to know who is in charge and what the rules are. This is very similar to many herding and working breeds. Catahoulas respond well to positive reinforcement and negative punishment. They learn quickly. The breed is bred to work all day. Their needs for mental and physical exercise must have suitable outlets-much the same as any adolescent Labrador. Cheers, Nancy Abplanalp Dog Manners

And my friend with the Catahoulas says that her dogs were raised from puppies with children; one indeed will go out of her way to go play with kids and isn't fazed in the slightest by a strange, very young child grabbing her around the waist and trying to drag her around. My friend does say that she has to be careful with her dogs around other dogs, but my understanding is that it's primarily because of their tendency to protect their own property (such as a thrown frisbee, for example), although she does prefer to take them out and about at dog events one at a time because the two of them can feed off of each other's pack mentality regarding other dogs. She also says that her dogs were raised in the home as pets and companion animals; dogs raised out in the yard or woods as hunting dogs might have an entirely different demeanor. And she emphasized that Catahoulas are *not* the kind of dog for someone to get as their first dog; they require a lot of training from a handler with experience, confidence, and assertion.

She also wants to remind people (and I'd agree) not to base one's impression of any breed on what one sees at dog parks; I have seen some very odd attitudes by owners at dog parks and their dogs reflect them quite closely. I stopped going to one for a while because there were a couple of people who felt that it was "natural" for dogs to pin other dogs to the ground and snarl to establish dominance and so of course that's what their dogs did to all the dogs they could, or fought with the ones who wouldn't. But I'd judge more about the owner than about the breeds from such behavior. Elf | Talk 03:09, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm learning a lot about Catahoulas here. Still, what I am consistently seeing is that it is very important that the dogs need to be well-socialized, need a stern owner, and are not good choices for first-time dog owners. Is it too much to ask that something along these lines be included in the article?

My research has led me to a related, but little-known breed. I give you:

[edit] The Catahoula Leotard Dog

'History' The Louisiana Catahoula Leotard Dog, also known as the Catahoula Cutey and Catahoula Dance Dog, is named after Catahoula Parish, Louisiana.

The Catahoula Leotard Dog is the performance art dog of the region. They are used for herding, tracking, and ballet.

'Temperament' The Leotard has a tendency towards being a prima donna. Though generally healthy, some individuals suffer from anorexia.

'Breed Recognition' The Catahoula Leotard Dog is not recognized by any major kennel club. The breed is in danger of extinction, mainly because most members are gay.

Never discount the value of "silly." Wcrowe 14:59, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am astounded--and perhaps I should leave it at that. ;-)

Yes, I think the article could use some editing. Elf | Talk 15:45, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Another response from catahoula owner

I got another email from a friend of a friend who owns catahoulas:

Catahoulas make GREAT family pets. We love our 5 Catahoulas, all of whom live in the house with us and our two children (one of whom has Cerebral Palsy, and is totally vulnerable. I would NEVER have a dangerous dog around him. No Pit Bulls or Rottweillers in this house).

We have cattle, and 11 years ago one of our bull buyers talked us into a Catahoula. We had not heard of Catahoulas and were not in the market for another cattle dog at the time, but she insisted we would really like these dogs. Well, we brought him home and fell in love with him. Four years later, in 1997, we purchased a female off of a ranch down in Arizona for our young daughter. We have had 3 litters since then and have about 30 puppies out there in the world. Many in families with children of all ages and some in city settings. I have not heard of one of our dogs/pups harming a child. They do put on an aggressive posture when strangers come to our property (as we would want them to act protective) but tend to be bluffers and don't bite anyone. When other dogs come over we need to properly introduce them before allowing them to play together, but that is understandable, as we live out in the country and our dogs aren't around other dogs much. Lots of breeds and individual dogs are like that.

...they are not the dog for everyone, but of course many of the breeds fit that description. While they do not need several acres, they do need to get plenty of exercise and to be part of the family. Since they are a working breed, they like to stay busy. Because of their intelligence they do not do well as kennel dogs or dogs just thrown food once a day. They need to be part of the family and have constant human interaction. They want to be with you always. I cannot remember the last time I was able to even so much as go to the ladies room, take a shower, or do office work without my loyal Catahoulas gathered around my feet.

Because of their intelligence, and desire to please their masters, they are extremely easy to train, even by a young child, and they retain the knowledge without reinforcement for unbelievable periods of time. They do need to be shown who is boss though, as do many other breeds and species. If there is a leadership vacuum, they will try to assume that role. So they are not for the timid person, or the one who is afraid to discipline their dogs when they need it. Even my children understand this and have no problem whatsoever with our dogs. Two of the dogs sleep on the bed with us and two of the others sleep on the bed with the children.

We love our Catahoulas, and after having them, have no desire to have any other breed. They have no resemblance to the negative description that was given. (Shari Sanders, Double S Ranch)

Elf | Talk 16:44, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

All I can say is, most people think their children are wonderful too, when often the kids are, in fact, insufferable little brats.Wcrowe 20:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Different phenotypes

So I then posed this question:

You know, it's occurring to me that all of these responses are from CA catahoula owners--I wonder whether the breed is different in, say, Louisiana? Californians might emphasize different things when breeding their dogs... Just a thought.

My friend responded:

If you visit one of the Catahoula sites, ( I think it is the catahoulaleopard.com-in the breed history) you can find that there are at least two different types/phenotypes-That seem to appear-One is more often used for hunting boar etc. These dogs are bigger and generally not as houndy looking (shorter, higher set ears, etc)-they tend to look more like Pit bulls and are quite large-Ones that I met could stand on their hind legs and look me in the eye! (interestingly-the man who was breeding them gave his best female to his young niece after he weaned her pups...go figure!)

The other line/phenotype are used to work cattle-these are lighter more houndy looking-like Cate E and Ana. Since that is what their parents do for a living.

Also there is still a huge difference in what the males and female look like (Males being much bigger and heavier) since they are selected on working ability not conformation!

Now dogs of different shapes can certainly do different things-I believe all the instincts are still in each type but they maybe better suited physically for different tasks-but people breeding any type of working dog tend to breed to get the type they want.

Thanks! Leslie (This is a very interesting discussion!)
Elf | Talk 17:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad she referenced catahoulaleopard.com. That is the website I have already quoted above (Catahoula Leopard stock dogs outwork and outfight all other breeds of stock dogs when protecting their master, livestock, and property. They are the largest and most aggressive of the cattle dogs, bred to handle wild cattle and hogs in the roughest, most remote country. Catahoulas will also hunt coon, bear, or whatever else they are introduced to. These dogs are not good city dwellers... they need several acres to roam to be happy. A farm or ranch is really their element... ...They are more primitive psychologically than most breeds and need consistent obedience reinforcement... ...Not everyone needs them...not everyone can handle them...and not everyone should have them... ...These dogs fight restraint, and will hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully...)

I'm sorry Elf, but I'm seeing a lot of inconsistencies among the breed's enthusiasts. Am I to believe that they will both hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully, and great family pets at the same time? Do they need several acres to roam to be happy or they do not need several acres? These statements are at odds with each other. Do you see what I mean? I suppose I should just, um, let sleeping dogs lie... ahem, I imagine you're pretty busy and I don't want to aggravate anyone.

Wcrowe 20:58, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Leslie responds (via Elf):

I like the catahoula leotard dog-very witty!

Catahoulas need room or a job! or both-is that, that hard to figure out-it is a highly active, intelligent breed.

On the Catahoula website, of course, they are going to say our breed is the "toughest, smartest, fastest, most loyal..." CatahoulaLeopard.com is aimed at hunters and cattle breeders-not just the regular dog owner.

Would you expect them to say choose this (you fill in) breed instead? Come on!

What else do you expect-it's the breeds marketing site!

These dogs need lots of patience and socializing-but what dogs don't?

I've put many hours into both my dogs and if people like them, then maybe they will research the breed.. maybe not. Either is OK with me.

I feel people in general need to be more intelligent about the pet choices they make. If you want a Catahoula to be your family dog - you just need to know that it will take some work but the end reward is worth it!!!

Then Ellen says--hey, Fogle's book says that Cockers are good with kids, and based on my experience with them, I wouldn't put a kid near one! Although I'm sure that I've only encountered badly bred, badly researched cockers & I know there are some in this area doing agility who are very sweet. My impression is that catahoulas are not among the easiest to train and are not among the laid-back breeds of dogs. But "easy to train" probably requires some qualification, too. I believe that pretty much any medium-to-large herding dog needs a firm handler/owner, needs lots of exercise and some sort of job to do to keep its brain occupied, and is by nature possessive of its property. I also think from what I've read that catahoulas are probably more variable still than some other breeds. But I'm not convinced that they're only two steps away from being a wild, unmanageable dog. I think that the answer is to point out that there may be alot of variation and to pick your breeder carefully. Which is always good advice anyway, but particularly true in a developing breed (well, ok, it's really a very old breed, but it's not a "standard" breed...). Elf | Talk 02:08, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Another published description

I went back to my breed books. Not a lot about the Catahoula because they're not that common and not recognized by most kennel clubs. But Simon & Schuster's Guide to Dogs, another of my favorites, has this to say:

"(The Catahoula) is an affectionate, devoted, trainable dog, very loving toward its master but an aggressive guard dog." This book uses a different selection of icons to indicate key traits--up to 3 per breed for most breeds (kinda arbitrary, but there ya go). It did not include the icon for "gentle"; it significantly also did not include the icon for having a definite tendency to bite. Interestingly for comparison, the Border Collie is listed as gentle AND as having a definite tendency to bite. So make of it what you will. Just points out again that there's apparently a lot of variability. Elf | Talk 02:17, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I thought about it more this afternoon, I came to the same conclusion, i.e., there must be a lot of variability. Probably what we're seeing here is a breed "in the making". There seems to be great variability in size, color, shape, temperament, you name it... perhaps even to the extent that one can just about call any old mutt a Catahoula Leopard Dog and get away with it. Maybe it would be wise to think of Catahoulas like German Shepherds: they run the gamut from vicious to gentle and everywhere in between. Some you can trust, and others you can't.

As for the professional sites: I have to admit, when you visit the Poodle sites they all talk about how sweet, lovable, and adorable they are. I suppose that's usually true, but mine also eats and drinks like a pig, digs holes, buries bones, eats dead birds, and drinks from the toilet. Not exactly the vision one has in mind when somebody mentions "Poodle".

BTW, glad y'all liked the Catahoula Leotard Dog. That's how I remember to spell leopard correctly: spell leotard (which is phonetic and easy to remember) and substitute a p for the t.Wcrowe 03:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] And more web sites

• Catahoulas.org article on aggressive/bad with children
• Same site on origins of the breed
• Catahoula Rescue Network breed description
• Catahoula Rescue breed description
• DogBreedInfo.com breed description (says "reserved" with strange children")
• Catahoula FAQs (recommends catahoulas for children & families)

OK, I'm sure there are more, but i'm NOT getting the impression of a breed that is dangerous around children or that will hang itself when put on a leash or is semiwild. Elf | Talk 02:41, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, the hanging itself line, admittedly, sounded like an exagerration. However, I have already visited some of the above websites and while we're reading the same pages, we seem to be getting different impressions.

I visited each of the above sites. Here are some things I took note of:

• Any dog that is allowed to choose its position in the pack, your family, will try to find its standing in the hierarchy. Since children are at eye level with the dog, it makes perfect sense to challenge the one that is on its level first, and proceed up the chain until it is in charge. It is your responsibility, as the leader, to make your dogs understand that their position is at the lower end of this pecking order. Family first, dog last.

My response: Good advice, but there's that responsibility word again. What does one do while the pecking order is being established, hope no one gets bit?

• While not overtly aggressive, one would be unwise to enter their domain in the absence of their owner.

My response: Does the typical family really want a dog that might attack the meter-reader, or the neighbor's wandering four-year-old, and can they afford the resulting lawsuit?

• The owner must assert his/her dominance from day one & continue to re-enforce that dominance when tested, or trouble will follow.

My response: Can the average owner be dominant enough? Will the average parent know how to do this?

• As a general rule, Catahoulas are not well-suited to novice owners. Experience with Catahoulas or other large and/or assertive breeds is a plus for prospective Catahoula owners.

My response: How many people looking for a family-friendly pet have these credentials?

• Also, Catahoulas must have obedience training - they are an assertive, dominant breed and can quickly take over a household if given the chance.

My response: Can a busy family spend the time and money required for obedience training?

• Although affectionate with his master, the Catahoula is not recommended for the casual pet owner who is uninterested in allowing the dog to function in his intended capacity.

My response: If "family dog" is not the intended capacity, should this breed be recommended as a family pet? Aren't most pet owners of the "casual" variety?

• The Catahoula makes a good family dog provided enough exercise is made available. This breed must get a minimum of one hour of running exercise each day, rain or shine. A Catahoula will not tolerate being isolated, so interaction with the dog is a daily requirement. I strongly recommend obedience training for the family dog.

My response: Can a typical busy family maintain such an excercise regimen?

My impression, then, is of a breed that is capable of being family friendly, but will require quite a bit of responsibility on the part of the owner to get there. Yes, I realize responsibility is important with all dogs, but to what extent? In general can one be more assured of a friendly dog with certain breeds (a Golden Retriever comes to mind)?

The only caveat that the Wikipedia article has is, They are inquisitive and have an independent streak. Can you see my dilemma? What I fear is that someone is going to read the Wikipedia article, get a Catahoula, and a few months later another unwanted dog is going to be sitting in a shelter somewhere, or awaiting a court-ordered death, with perhaps a mangled or dead child in the bargain. Maybe some of the recommendations from those websites should be fleshed out in the Wiki article.

I hope you will see me as cautious rather than closed minded. Our discussion has been very productive. Before this, I would have never considered owning a Cathoula. At this point, I might actually consider owning one if I were a more experienced trainer (in the meantime I better stick to Poodles:)). Wcrowe 20:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually I think I agree with you. Elf | Talk 22:56, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)