Talk:Cat's eye (road)

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I'm curious how this story ties in with the one presented on this page. Was the concept invented independently in different parts of the world? Marnanel 00:42, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Page move

There was no discussion of this prior to moving. Cat's eye is the common term in the UK and Ireland (I've never heard of a "raised pavement marker") and was where that device was originally developed.

There may be arguments for moving - if anyone believes it should be moved, please list at Wikipedia:Requested moves rather than taking unilateral action.

zoney ♣ talk 10:30, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Although I didn't move the page, neither have I heard of the term Cat's eye before coming to wikipedia. The common term here in California is "bott's dot", or "raised pavement marker." Cat's eye seems like a colliqual term, and maybe it should be moved to Raised pavement marker. I'm going to set up a request to move at the place you just mentioned. -Shoecream 17:50, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
add: * Support or * Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and a signature:"~~~~"
  • I've never heard it called anything other than a cat's ete (and I've never heard either of the terms you cite). 'Raised pavement marker' sounds particularly inappropriate in British (and probably other non-U.S.) English, as a pavement is what you'd probably call a sidewalk. And it is, after all, a British invention... (See here for a U.S. use of 'cat's eye', though.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose move - article should remain at Cat's eye (road). violet/riga (t) 18:20, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - That's what it's called. Jooler
  • Oppose move - As Mel says, 'Raised pavement marker' is not acceptable. I found that a British manufacturer says: "road studs, which are more commonly known as cats eyes". Bobblewik  (talk) 18:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. What Jooler said ;) --BesigedB (talk) 19:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose move - As Jooler say, "cat's eye" is what it's called. I'd have no idea what a "raised pavement marker" is - I'd have guessed (incorrectly) that it was a sleeping policeman, not a cat's eye, jguk 20:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Just as "tidal wave" is at tsunami, because the wave has nothing to do with the tides, then "cat's eye" should be at some type of road marker name, as it has nothing to do with the eyes of a cat. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Oh, I'd never heard them called "cat's eyes" before finding this article. Gentgeen 23:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose This page should probably stay. The Botts' dot is not a cat's eye since it is not reflective. However both are raised pavement markers in warmer climates. What I believe the page is calling cat's eye are in the colder climates of the US actually placed below the pavement surface by removing the paving material to create an elongated triangular channel in the road surface so that the reflector is not in the way of snow plows but is still visible to approaching traffic. Are all of these really types of mechanical lane markers? Some raised, some depressed. Some reflective and some not. So maybe the question is should other pages be created to define the various types I listed? I also could not find anything about the generic lane marker subject. That leaves paint and pylons not defined anywhere as lane markers. Oh, Cat's eyes are also used to indicate a gated community's gate that will open with a controller provided to emergency vehicles. Botts' dots are also used in the US across road lanes when there is a significant speed change, like approaching a toll booth. The noise they make when a vehicle drives over them tends to get the driver's attention and they are more likely to slow down.Vegaswikian 08:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose move Philip Baird Shearer 11:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose: we walk on the pavement in the UK, where "raised pavement markers" are provided to help blind people know where it is safe to cross the road. HTH HAND --Phil | Talk 12:58, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Icundell 02:52, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Vote closed

---Add any additional comments on the "Requested move" below this line ---

Just as "tidal wave" is at tsunami, because the wave has nothing to do with the tides, then "cat's eye" should be at some type of road marker name, as it has nothing to do with the eyes of a cat. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Oh, I'd never heard them called "cat's eyes" before finding this article. Gentgeen 23:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    • That's a pretty dumb argument. Also cat's eyes is the common name outside of the US. We have to put up with Moving sidewalk so you can put up with this. Jooler
      • I fail to see how a) his argument is "dumb". His argument seems pretty sound to me. He specifically cited the naming conventions article, and brought up a pretty good point that I didn't think of earlier. And b) if you have to put up with "moving sidwalk" then we have to put up with "cat's eye." Is there a tit-for-tat naming convention that I'm not aware of here? -Shoecream 00:30, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
        • You think that "as it has nothing to do with the eyes of a cat.. it should not be at cat's eye (road)" isn't a dumb argument? - What about bullseye being moved because it has nothing to do with the eye of a bull?, or fisheye lens being moved because it has nothing to do with the eye of a fish?, or what about guinea pig not being where it is because it is not a pig? This is sound is it? Jooler 00:37, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
          • That's much better. Instead of just insulting someone, you actually insulted them and backed up your argument, after I got you to do it. Don't assume people are psychic and know exactly what you're trying to argue. But there's still the second point, which you haven't properly explained to me yet. -Shoecream 00:49, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
            • I would have thought it was pretty obvious, hence dumb. As for the second point, yes there is a tit-for-tat convention of sorts. When an article is created using one form of English then it usually stays there, hence you get potato chips instead of crisps and Zucchini instead of courgette, eggplant instead of aubergine. We get the odd crumb now and again such as abseil. Quite often some American comes along and doesn't recogize the name and moves the page to the annoyance of everybody outside of the US. See Guerilla UK spelling campaign and Gorilla_US_spelling_campaign Jooler 01:03, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Pavement marker (roads) a created based on this discussion. It does not use the term Cat's eye but can be modified based on the outcome of this vote.Vegaswikian 23:35, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • That's not very clever is it. What you call pavement, we call the road, what we call pavement, you call sidewalk. That point was made earlier on in this discussion. Jooler 00:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • And those points are discussed in the pavement writeup. So the markers article compliments the existing pavement article talking about the markers in the same usage as for the surface they are attached to. I'm not even sure how many of the markers included are used anywhere else in the world. So, when the issue is resolved about pavement, then the markers page would also be resolved. No matter where it winds up, the data concerning US pavement is in the database and not lost or hidden in a talk page.
  • Comment Here's an idea. Instead of "pavement marker", make a new page called "lane markers" or some name common to both the US and the UK. That way the pavement/road issue is resolved. We could move the info from this page and expand it, including things like lane lines or whatever. -Shoecream 02:06, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
    • That does not address the total marking issue. Lane markers is only a portion of what is marked on the driving surfaces. I see it as lane markers being a subset of pavment markings. As to the British vs. American usage, will there ever be a real solition?Vegaswikian 03:53, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I live and grew up in California, and I've called them cat-eye reflectors my whole life. I thought that the differences came from personal choices of the word, not differences in U.S. and U.K. English.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 22:09, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cat's eye (road) vs. Bott's dots

Since these are really two different devices, should Bott's dots have it's own entry?Vegaswikian 03:47, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Refer my comment above. A road marker or pavement marker article would solve this problem as well. —Shoecream 22:05, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think the entire section should just be renamed "pavement markers" and forwards/disambiguations for all of these other names as this single article has quite a lot of information, but not enough to break each portion into it's own article. Thepcnerd 02:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Please read the discussion. The meaning of "pavement" is not consistent on both sides of the atlantic. Jooler 08:18, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Road Marker - That covers all these silly names everyone has created in each of thier own countries. Name an english speaking country that cannot understand this. Thepcnerd 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)
Certainly — try the United States. In some contexts in American English, if I recall correctly, that could be construed as implying an object, like a monument, that by where it stands marks the route of a road. For example, the route of El Camino Real in California is marked by roadside bells every mile or so. The problem is that cat's eyes or Botts' dots serve a slightly different purpose than such roadside monuments. They are designed to be run over, and the resulting thunk tells drivers to stay in their lane and not wander off the road. In contrast, if someone were to hit one of those big roadside stones with a plaque, or one of those large poles with a bell along El Camino Real, the result would be a car accident. --Coolcaesar 6 July 2005 23:26 (UTC)
Okay. Here's a new idea. Why not have Cat's eye (road) for the UK object and Raised pavement marker for the US object, with "see also" links to the other at the bottom? It seems like everyone is talking about two slightly different but related objects. In other areas of Wikipedia, we have different articles for slightly different objects (with appropriate "See also" links at the bottom) and it works fine. Compare Bag-In-Box (a container used to deliver soft drink syrup to fountains) with Bag in a box (a cheap wine container). --Coolcaesar 20:18, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
  • seconds* —shoecream 01:22, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • thirds* wow this dinner must be good. Thepcnerd 05:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Very well, then, if no one objects, then I'll start researching the topic and thinking about how to split up this pigpen of an article during the next month (I'm really busy with looking for a job now that I finished law school). Of course, if anyone else wants to do the research and split it up first, that would be great. --Coolcaesar 09:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I just poked around on NewsBank a bit. The sources are all over the place and mutually contradictory, but I think I've synthesized the history of Botts' dots into a coherent story. Now I just have to make the time in the next few weeks for figuring out how to cut this baby in half....unless someone else does it first, of course. --Coolcaesar 11:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I am cutting up the article tonight as proposed above, since no one has objected. The page may be a bit messy for the next half hour. --Coolcaesar 01:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, it is done. --Coolcaesar 01:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] retraction

im sure in the uk the older cats eyes retracted into holes when driven over and im sure i heared somewhere that they cleaned the lenses when pushed down. Does anyone have any more information on this type?

Yes, and that's the normal type as far as I'm concerned. The "Red Cat's Eye" shown on the page doesn't look like it would retract, so seems like a substandard version to me. You're right in thinking that the retracting ones clean themselves - one of our teachers at school had an old cat's eye for us to look at, and there's a kind of rubber wiper that sweeps across the lens as it's pressed down. I might nip outside now and take a photo of a "proper" retracting cat's eye. --Pete

It seems the simple stick on ones like are in the photo in the article are more modern and are most often seen in temporary works (they seem to be frequently used for temporary lane markers in roadworks on motorwars). Plugwash 22:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The 'red cat's eye' is a modern non-retractable one with a plastic reflective strip each end, the kind used at the side of motorways. The traditional 'cat's eye' has a metal box sunk in the road surface, with a rubber insert containing 2 reflectors (the 'eyes') at each end. The beauty of the traditional one is that if you run over one it collapses slightly and that wipes the reflector len clean. I've googled and googled but not yet turned up a pic of one! --PeteH (formerly 86.129.136.155)

It's a shame we don't have a photo of a proper retractable cat's eye. Jooler 08:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

How about this image I've just created. PeteH 10:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC) Image:Catseye.GIF

Not bad, but could you show how it retracts when a car goes over it. Anyway we want a real photo as well.

It's difficult to find them now as most seem to have been ripped up in favour of high-vis paint for road marking. It's easier for them as they don't need to dig holes in fresh tarmac to fit them. None round here (London). Someone pointed me to [1] and [2]. --PeteH 23:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


BTW According to http://www.design-technology.info/inventors/page14.htm the correct name is Catseyes as it is trademarked, and after a further search I found http://www.jenkins-ip.com/mym/spring2000/t_news01.htm which says -

"Of course, when thinking of a name for his product, Shaw returned to his original inspiration. He therefore called his device the Catseye road reflector. With the passage of time, this name has become extremely well known, at least in the UK. Further, from the nature of its use by the public, you would think that it had entered into the language as a generic term for such road reflectors. Indeed, the term “cat’s eyes” appears in Roget’s Thesaurus, whilst “Cat’s-eye” is found in the Oxford English Dictionary. Care should be exercised, however, before making such assumptions. On closer inspection, the OED states that Cats-eye is a proprietary name and this is confirmed by a review of the UK and CTM registers where Catseye (one word) is found to be protected in Classes 6, 9 and 17 and in the ownership of Shaw’s original company, Reflecting Roadstuds Ltd. "

[edit] A short note from a member of a Civil Engineering Profession about some of the above comments

I am currently project manager for a research study looking for a more modern design guidance for the installation of road studs on the Highways Agency road network. A couple of points that should be noted:

  1. For civil engineers: the surface and the materials that make up the road are called the pavement - what the public might call a pavement, is a footway. I work in a team of pavement engineers whose job it is to investigate why a road is failing and how to maintain it in a cost-benefit sense.
  2. The use of tar in pavement maintenance is illegal and is no longer used. For surfacings, we now use hot rolled asphalt (HRA), thin surfacings (polymer modified bituminous material) and less frequently concrete - never tarmac!
  3. As already stated: "Cats Eye" is a commercial name, but is used much along the same lines as "Hoover" to mean vacuum cleaner
  4. There are a few versions of road stud; simplistically there are: (i) depressible road studs (like the generic Cats Eye) (ii) raised (inserted or stick on) - the reflection being generated by corner reflection from cubic facets; and (iii) active road studs/intelligent road studs which use diodes to generate a light instead of reflecting the headlights

--82.109.186.194 15:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC) [MikeW]

You may want to be specific about where it is that "tar" is illegal; here in the U.S., we still see lots of tanker trucks running around carrying (based on their hazmat placards) "tar", so it seems like our paving material is still aggregate and tar, and roads crews still do cheap-and-dirty patching by spraying tar on cracks. Low-budget towns occasionally resurafe roads simply by spraying a layer of tar and tossing gravel on top of it.
Atlant 23:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Patent

I have found the original patent together with illustrations!!! http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB457536&F=0&QPN=GB457536 - I presume patents MUST surely be in the public domain? Jooler 10:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

If you search that site for patents by Percy Shaw the are many patents listed with various improvements. (Note that the patent above refers to an earlier patent- to which the above is an improvment). This one http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=MY156&F=0&RPN=GB666859&DOC=ce973ee58c33f0ad6a29e5a56d14bb8b32 and this one (http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2703038&F=0&QPN=US2703038 ehich is an application for a US patent) have more detailed illustrations. Jooler 10:43, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Official name of cat's eyes

In the UK cat's eyes are officially referred to as :

That's interesting that British people use the word "studs." Although we also use the word to mean "something that protrudes," the most common connotation of the term in the United States is a virile male horse (and in slang, virile males in general). Thus, the British usage sounds very amusing and strange to Americans. --Coolcaesar 19:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is Commonwealth usage: "stud" refers generically to something that "sticks up" as it were. Example, the studs on a Lego brick and on the bottom of a pair of football boots (what US would call "cleets" I believe.) BTW we also use the word "stud" to mean any virile male mammal :) --Jquarry 00:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
While we're on the subject I'd hazard that "cat's eye" is common usage throughout the Commonwealth, certainly it is in Australia. --Jquarry 00:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK photo

I've added a photo I took of a white cat's eye to the "United Kingdom" section, since it seemed a bit odd having a Malaysian picture as the only one for what is mostly thought of as a British thing. It's not the best photo, but as I had to stand in the middle of the road to take it I wasn't keen on covering all the angles! Loganberry (Talk) 01:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


Lol, that must have been fun, Cat's eyes aren't only UK, they are common in Canada on highways (most of our highways only have 2 lanes) and when I was in Costa Rica they have them there too.

  • Is there any point in keeping the picture of the American yellow lines with their inferior markers on the page, it is already on the American page for their "raised pavement markers". --jmb 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur that the picture should be removed as irrelevant to this article. But I should note that the advantage of American raised pavement markers (particularly the popular Heenan design for Stimsonite and its descendants) is that they are simpler in design (see the KISS principle), cheaper, and easier to apply. Yes, markers don't last very long in areas where it snows (like England and Wales), but for the large part of the planet where it doesn't snow, they work fine. That's why so many countries are voting with their dollars for raised pavement markers! --Coolcaesar 19:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I Concur as well, it's like having a picture of a orange in a section about apples. TheEnlightened 19:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The proposed merge is ridiculous

Some idiot just proposed a merge of Cat's eye with Raised pavement marker. Obviously someone didn't read the talk page. I split the articles almost a year ago after prolonged discussions in which it became clear that cat's eyes in the U.K. are quite different from the Heenan design of raised pavement markers and California's Botts dots. Furthermore, even a casual glance at the pictures indicates that traditional cat's eyes differ significantly in shape and design from Heenan's raised pavement markers. The cat's eyes have a ridiculously complicated "self-cleaning" mechanism while the Heenan design is designed (through the very angles and materials used) to not get dirty to begin with. It's like trying to compare apples and oranges---it just doesn't work. --Coolcaesar 17:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Invented by the Romans

I removed this statement by IP user for further consideration here. Perhaps we could hear from an expert on Roman vehicle headlamps? Moonraker88 09:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL! That was me sorry for the anonymous post. I just registered there. Anyway we were told in Pompeii, Italy, that the Romans used white polished marble and placed them into the roads. The moon would then light them up. So can they really be attibuted to anyone else? =) Paul pmwhelan
Paul, you can easily sign your "talk" page posts by including four tildes (~~~~) after your message. When you press "Save page", the tildes will be replaced by your usrname in a handy Wikilinked form. A timestamp for your edit will also be included.
Atlant 12:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The Romans may of used the polished marble to solve the same problem and perhaps it could be mentioned at the beginning of the article but they didn't invent the mechanical cat's eye which is descussed in this article. Its like mentioning a horse in a article about motorbikes, they solve the problem of covering distances without having to physically walk but they are both very diffrent things. TheEnlightened 00:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, such an outlandish claim needs to be substantiated under the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. See Roger J. Traynor for an example of a properly researched article. --Coolcaesar 05:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not that outlandish as i remember the marbles in the middle of the street being mentioned before on a kids history program about Pompeii (I think it could of been Blue Peter, i was ill.... anyway) but i don't think its needed in this article as it's about the modern device. TheEnlightened 17:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How they got their name

When ever i have watched a programme that talks about the Cat's eye it says they got their name as their inventor was walking along a clif top in the middle of a pitch black night and saw the moon's reflection in the eyes of a cat that promptly toppled over the cliff but saved his life as he knew where the cliff was. I dunno if this is just a urban legend but if it is true (and someone can find a good source), should it not be mentioned in the article? TheEnlightened 17:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New problem, we need to fix delineator

Delineator is currently a redirect to Cat's eye. We need to change that because delineator in American English refers to detachable plastic pylons that are placed in rubber sockets glued to the road (someone inappropriately put the definition into Raised pavement marker instead). They are used to channelize opposing traffic on dangerous roads where there is not enough money or right-of-way to install a full Jersey barrier. Temporary movable delineators are used on toll bridges like the Golden Gate Bridge. If delineator actually means cat's eye in British English, that can be noted in italics with a link to this article at the start of the delineator article. By the way, what are American-style delineators called in the UK? --Coolcaesar 08:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, in the UK, traffic division is always carried out with plastic cones on the road. I've never noticed anything glued to the road, or fitted in sockets.
Very occasionally, a drunk driver will send these cones flying, but they're usually at road-works and (I imagine) there are people available to replace them.
The only place where some semi-permanent system might be in use is where lanes are used for morning rush-hour traffic in one direction, and evening rush-hour in the other direction. But I don't know of any such stretch of road in the UK.
TomRawlinson 09:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
An IP poster has changed the redirect: its now back with Raised pavement marker. On UK dual carriageways or motorways it used to be the practice to make space for roadworks by sending one of the lanes of traffic into the carriageway for the other direction. To separate the vehicle streams the rubber centres of the cat's eyes marking the lane would be prised out of its socket and replaced by a soft plastic pole — a delineator. The practice has now been modified because there were too many head-on collisions: a complete lane now separates any two-way working and the thin delineators are no longer needed as there is plenty of room for the standard "big foot" cone. This is all seems a bit digressive for the article. --Moonraker88 15:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Solar powered

I know of an installation of solar powered cat's eyes near Croydon, England. Unfortunately the section section of road runs through a dark wood (Titsey Plantation, if anybody's interested) and they don't work properly! They seem to be made of acrylic and most cracked fairly soon after installation. There are also some on the A127 A12 near Brentwood, England, though I can't report on how well these are surviving. This is all WP:OR of course and can't be added to the article without a source. If I find a reasonable one, I'll do it. --Moonraker88 08:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been a 1/2 mile long stretch of solar powered cats eyes near Ackworth in West Yorkshire since I was at school there... at least 8 years ago. If I remember next time I'm there, I'll try to get a few photos. Rob cowie 12:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Guys, what you're describing probably belongs in the encyclopedia.
But I don't think it belongs here .... Cats eyes are reflective, unpowered by definition. If some highway depts are using powered lights in the road, then they should have a different article (obviously with a link from here).
Also, I'd be confident that the manufacturers have a generic term for them, and it won't be "Cats Eyes", and unlikely to be a variation such as "Powered Cats Eyes" either.
Lastly, I worry that what you're describing is "experimental". Most likely made in small batches, no regular production. As such it's quite misleading to have them in here. If you can find someone constantly manufacturing these things, and advertising them for further sale, then you have justification for a new article.
TomRawlinson 08:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Solar powered cats eye's is the official UK government term [3]. I do, however, remember a bit of a debate to keep the topic out of this article so I'll definitely bear in mind what you say, should I get around to writing about it. Here's the site of one of the manufacturers [4]. I believe that regular production is supported by airport use, so the problem of short production runs for highway contracts is alleviated. Any further suggestions or, better still an article, welcome! --Moonraker88 11:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
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