Talk:Caste

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[edit] Aryans Caste System


Why is there not any information of the early influences of the Aryans on the caste system? It is the material children are learning in school. Is it the lack of knowledge on the subject by wikipedia account holders or is it just not considered in-signifigant to the standards of learning for the educational purposes of wikipedia? I am just wondering if I overlooked it in the paragraphs. If someone could clear this up for me I would greatly appreciate it.
<***Preceding comment added by User:Nuclear Theory***>

The information is discussed in more detail on Indian Caste System. keep in mind that the Aryan theory is disputed and not fully proven. Please sign your posts with 4 tildes like this ~~~~ Hkelkar 00:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caste systems in other countries

This article does not describe caste like systems in Japan where Buraku or Burakumin were are are treated like Indian untouchables under the influence of Buddhism. In Yemen and Mauretania too retain caste like systems.


Nor does it talk about the Northern European caste system found in Heimskringla, including Earls, Churls and Thralls.

[edit] Foreigners in India

If an educated foreigner were to relocate and live in India, what caste would they be placed in? Would any ethnic Indians be in this caste, as well? foreigners are traditionally thought of in the past as belonging to the dalit - the classless society

If memory serves, Westerners (particularly English) are held to be Brahmin, Africans are held to be dalits, returning people of Indian descent keep the caste they had in India (hence the need for many Indian men to return to India to find a nice girl of the right caste) - but for the rest, I think Indians either have not put any thought into it or they guess on a case-by-case basis. But yes, I agree that this needs further looking at. mattabat 20060205 17:00 AEDST
Few White caucasians who convert to Hindu religion adopt [Brahmin] surnames like Shastri or Sharma, I am not sure if people would be as accomodating if a person of African descent did it ?:-)))RaveenS 14:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aryan invasion theory refuted

The skeletal and other human remains of the great cities of Mohinjodaro and Harappa(now in Pakistan) which were supposed to be thriving cities more than 5000 years ago(carbon dating evidence) has thrown out conclusive evidence to refute the Aryan invasion theory and that the north Indians of todays India(off springs of so called Aryans) defeated and killed Dravidians(south Indians) three thousand years ago.The genetic analysis of these human remains shows that the type of people who lived in those areas more than five thousand years ago is exactly the same as the type of people you find in North India now.There was infact a good mingling of people with several gene types.The Aryan invasion theory was just a ploy highlighted by the British to create a rift between north Indians and south Indians,just as they did utilizing the already existing divide between Hindus and Muslims,Dalits and higher castes ,so as to ensure that colonists could never be defeated by ensuring that Indians would be busy fighting amongst themselves.Tamil political parties play the Dravidian card to be in power by propogating Hindi/sanskrit hateread and not sparing the so called north Indian Gods like Krishna and Rama,but they fail to understand that most of the names of citiesin Tamilnadu, like Rameshwaram were named after Rama (rather the cities came into existance due to Rama) and the names of the most ardent sanskrit haters like Karunanidhi and Dayanidhi Maran carry sanskrit names,which made Karunanidhi,name his son after Stalin,as he found there could be no Tamil name that is truely Tamil and not resembling sanskrit atall.


U-hu, scientists have proved that higher caste Indians carry European genes. Just look at them and it's obvious. 1337

No, AIT has been refuted as garbage. AMT is being debated, but AIT is a deliberate lie.Shiva's Trident 07:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last Names

Would we be able to locate a short example list of last names and their variants that indicate an Indian person belongs to one of the four castes? Much like Chinese family names, I expect. E.G. Chaudry, Choudry, Chopra are all names meaning the person is of the warrior caste. -- Greggae

[edit] Research on DNA sequence to reveal more on the origin of case system

Ongoing research and analysis of DNA sequences are to shed more light on the existing theories of caste system. Many group of researchers have shown that there are no serious genetic differences among Indians (caste polulation and tribal population) based on the mtDNA(DNA inheritted from mother) evidences. Which implies that both the tribal population as well as other caste populations have the same ancestors. Recent Y chromosome(DNA inheritted from father) datas are also indicaing similar results (see Am J. Hum. Genet.; Kivisild. et al (2003), S Sengupta et al (2005))

not true - there was a science and nature article (higher impact factor) on mitochondrial dna vs. Y chromosome dna in the past that suggested support for the aryan invasion theory and the establishment of the caste system.
:http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/seta/2003/11/06/stories/2003110600050200.htm

This News does not seem to refute the european orgin of the upper castes.

Scientific American - http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000E27F4-B639-1C5E-B882809EC588ED9F&sc=I100322

"The researchers discovered that the maternally inherited DNA more closely resembled that of Asians, although genetic similarities to Europeans were more common in members of the higher ranks. Among the paternally inherited DNA, however, they found an even greater likeness to European DNA. Thus, the scientists suggest that the western Eurasians who arrived in India were mostly men who placed themselves at the top of the social ladder and married only women in the highest castes."

Irony of the so called caste system

Its incomprehensible though that incarnations of God(avtars) and some of the best known Bramhins were actually not born as Bramhins.Lord Rama was a warrior King(Kshatriya) but he was and is still worshipped as God by Bramhins.Lord Krishna was a Vaishya(Milkman)but Bramhins worship him as God.The great Sage Valmiki(writer of the Epic Ramayana) is considered as one of the greatest Bramhins in India,but he was born as a Fisherman(Backward class)but he went on to achieve knowledge and became a Bramhin and so was Vyasa,the writer of the great epic Mahabharata,who is considered as the most knowledgeable Bramhin,but was a son of a fisherwoman.The system in India clearly allowed for people from all classes to become Bramhins if they achieved knowledge.Both Rama and Krishna who Indians worship as God were not Bramhins.The cast system was nothing but a denotation of the job that you did.Sadly,people from the priviledged groups/castes continued to cling on to their priviledged spots/jobs and did not let the lower classes to switch the nature of their jobs(mainly shudras).The entire system was corrupted at the hands of the top three classes,the vaishyas being the richest,the kshatriyas being the most powerful and the Bramhins the most knowledgeable and none of the above three groups let shudras into their fould,let along marrying them.This let the shudras in utter poverty and misery.The inhuman treatment they received has only a few parallels.India is a young nation,as an independent democracy.It should be understood well that whites in USA discriminated the Blacks in an even worser way and this discrimination continued for a little less than two hundred years after USA became an independent nation.Hence expecting that all all vices in India would be eradicated within six decades of its creation would be ludicrous.Much work needs to be done just like in USA where there is no discrimination officially,but blacks are left far behind in development and one can seldom find whites and blacks marrying each other in large numbers.Hence discrimination is practiced,but it can be called as moderated discrimination.The condition of Native Americans still remains utterly miserable.Britain took a while to eradicate its class system as well.Hence one can hope that India can overcome its vices before long.

Implications of the so called affirmative action in India.

Sadly the successive governments in India failed to create an economy where the demand for the work force would be so large that private enterprises would have been forced to employ people from all castes.The private sector grew in India not due to government policies but despite government policies.The need for employment and education for the Dalits has been felt by every section of the society .Rather than focussing on good education and economic policies which would give scholarships to poor Dalits and create a platform for them where they can compete with their counter parts from the higher castes,the government confortably enforced reservation policies for Dalits in education and employment in the public sector and talks are on for enforcing the same in private sector.This is the most comfortable way for a non functional government to claim how much they have done for Dalits and garner political support,rather than creating an economy where employing Dalits no more remains a matter of choice but a matter of necessicity.Such policies which reserve fifty percent seats in all professional schools and work places has created animocity amongst castes as meritorious students from higher castes are denied admission and jobs because they belong to higher castes.This reverse discrimination creats a new crop of people with ill will and is the correct recepie to let history repeat.There have been incidences where students from lower castes have been admitted to medical schools with a grade just above the minimal passing grade to fill up the fifty percent vacancies reserved for them.This is creating a false sense of confidence amongst lower castes who increasingly believe that education and jobs could be achieved without effort and that reservation with which they managed to get into medical and professional schools and jobs in spite of poorer grades is not their right but just a crutch. Government should rather concentrate on creating a great economy that has to induct lower castes and educate them by offering a level playing field with regards to educational resources and scholarships,if not the quality of Indian professionals like Doctors will surely continue to decline as they were not admitted into graduate schools for their merit and high scores but for their castes.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Caste"



I have moved the following from the article to the talk section, because it needs a lot of work before it belongs in an encyclopedia article:

In humans, the cast system in India was initially based on the nature of work people did. There were four main castes. Bramhins were the knowledge-workers, Kshatriyas were the warriors, Waishyas were the traders, and Shoodras were the labourers. In very old times, caste was decided by work, but later on the system disintegrated into one where caste was decided by birth. Although no longer strictly enforced in modern India, the caste system retains some degrees of social impact in various regions.

There is a LOT of discussion among anthropologists and historians as to the origins of the caste system -- debates ranging from its origins in early Indian history to its largely being a construction of British colonial rule. "In very old times" is such a vague and meaningless statement that it seems almost to parody an encyclopedia article. I am not sure that the caste system in India was originally determined by work and only later determined by birth; Dumont identifies three defining features of a caste system: hierarchy, division of labor, and social segregation. One could argue that until all three features are in place, one does not have a caste system.

The article defines Indian castes in terms of occupations (knowledge-workers, warriors, traders) and then says that "In very old times, caste was decided by work" -- so what work one did was determined by what work one did? This sounds circular. My understanding is that what makes the caste system the caste system is that what work one does is determined by one's birth.

To say that the system "disintegrated" smacks of non-NPOV.

In any event, the article needs to distinguish between "caste system" as a kind of social system, versus Hindu India as a particular example of a caste system. It must also provide a more precise historical account, as well as account for current scholarly debates.

By the way, in English, at least, the spelling is "caste," not "cast;" also "Vaishya" (ot Waishya) and "Shudra" (not Shoodra). Also, I think it should read "Among humans" or "In human society," not "In humans."

Oh, yes -- "caste" comes from the Portuguese word for "chaste" which suggests that group caste endogamy and social segregation are more essential characteristics of caste systmes than a division of labor. Indeed, among humans almost every agricultural or industrial society, and all state-level societies, are characterized by complex divisions of labor (see the eponymous book by Durkheim); the "caste system" refers to something far more specific. -- SR

Portuguese casta=lineage or race, casto=chaste, and both are of the same origin. But the first is a much more likely source for the modern English word. Imc 21:29, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"Much of what we know of the caste system in India was documented and codified during the period of British occupation and rule (e.g. Herbert Risley's The Tribes and Castes of Bengal, published in 1892). "

Is this quote above from the article just confused, or is it a bit Eurocentric? Did no one know anything about it before this time, or record anything recently? Imc 21:22, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Agrees. It appears to be the result of unconscious Euro-centrism. I modified the paragraph slightly. Still not sure, if it is factually right to claim that caste system was "unknown" before the British rule.

==

[edit] Caste

Hi Rajesh,

Could you please specify in the talk page of the article, the specific points of dispute ? Correct me if I am wrong, but I see one version of the argument there, but nothing to counter that for a NPOV/disputed message on the main page. Many Thanks Chancemill 09:03, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, why couldn't you find the POV in that article. There are lots of... Say for example [1] --Rrjanbiah 09:33, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I see a lot of information there, some of which I know are true, some of which true but may not be verifiable, and some not true. If you find anything objectionable, please go ahead and edit the article (you can do it better by quoting relevant sources, for counter arguments) - putting a disputed message on top seems to me a bit premature at this stage. Chancemill 09:38, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
I do not want to edit the article 'coz many people (IIRC you too) were keep on tilting the article in favor of Brahmin and Hindu point of advocacies. It may be premature, but it is totally a POV. Perhaps could add it is the point of view of few Wikipedians alone? --Rrjanbiah 09:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
If you are not prepared to discuss the specific points, I am afraid the disputed message cannot stand. Thanks Chancemill 09:53, May 26, 2004 (UTC)


Actually much of the history of caste system cannot be traced though it remains one of the most important things that need to be talked about as far as Indian history is concerned. Actually, to say that caste is based on occupation is not entirely correct. Also, it is not the degeneration of the original four varna system. Caste is the carrying over of tribal ways of society organization into the modern period. Added to this was the varna system which was superimposed on the existing social organisation. Moreover, regarding the part played by islamic and british rule on the system, my opinion is that they resulted in the hardening of the system, though no one can say that they created them. British with their imperfect knowledge of the existing system and its flexibility, unfortunately imposed the status quo on the existing system. As a result, a system which was flexible became very rigid.

Caste system acts like a buffer as far as the society is concerned, helping new entrants to get easily used to the system. For example, rajputs started as several clans outside the pale of the society but were effectively absorbed into the society without any friction. Caste plays the role of an intermediate form of social organisation not opening up the individual directly to the topmost authority of the land.

[edit] This can't be right

Most of the links to articles on specific caste groups are erroneous. Some go to articles on persons, some on moslem groups like shia, some are even worse.

Rudolf 1922 22:17, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Please lend a hand w better links, if you can :) Sam [Spade] 22:20, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. There is no caste based on religion; all religion have all castes. In some religion esp Islam, some people immediately drops their Hindu caste after conversion. My friend who is Jacobite says it is a denomination (he belongs to another caste). There are also Christian brahmins and etc. I didn't fix it as I had a conflict with the whole content sometimes ago. --Rrjanbiah 04:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following two sub-sections, as I consider them outright silly, as others have noted above. In addition I still have the feeling that the article needs a lot of work but don't know enough of it to do it myself. -- Pjacobi 17:31, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Castes

The above (mostly) seem to be sects among Christians, rather than casts. But there is a caste structure among Christians in India, and I know for sure that this is true at least among Catholics of Goa. It is parallel to the Hindu caste system (Catholics were almost all converts from Hinduism, in Goa ... across the caste divide) but there are some differences. Among the Catholics of Goa, the caste divisions include Brahmin, Chardo (considered to be the equivalent of Kshatriya), Sudir (or Sudra) and Christian Mhar/Chambar (traditional weaver/cobbler), etc. Dr K S Singh's series on the 'People of India' also has an entire volume devoted to castes of Goa, including among Catholics. --fredericknoronha 00:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim Castes

[edit] Quick Changes

I changed the subheading of 'Indian Caste' to 'Hindu Caste' perhaps an even better change would be 'Hindu Cast in India'. India has sizable populations of non-hindus, and it is not factually to paint this as an 'indian' caste but as a Hindu one. --ShaunMacPherson 15:45, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--- The above statement is not factual and should be changed back to Indian Caste. The caste system is very much an Human thing rather than Hindu. For example the eters caste in Japan.

[edit] Quick Edits

Added the following :

In certain states the caste-based affirmative action has been carried too far creating a situation where the Brahmins are now the oppressed caste!

Reference :

Dalits In Reverse : outlook India http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20050411&fname=Brahmins+%28F%29&sid=1 [07 April 2005]

[edit] deleted text

There are numerous societies, however, in which immutable caste is combined with a very high degree of social mobility. Furthermore, the concept of caste cannot be limited to societies in which caste is legislated, such as the southern states of the United States until 1965, since the caste distinction separating Negroes (now called African Americans) from all other United States residents is no less forceful now in the lives of the members of this caste than in the past. Other examples of caste combined with social mobility: traditional Igbo society in Nigeria; Twareg society at present; Japan. Although frequently caste is associated with occupation, especially when first instituted, caste identification and enforcement has often survived the complexities of modern economies.

In course of time the difference of vocation, and the greater or less exposure to the scorching influence of the tropical sky, added, no doubt, to a certain. admixture of shudra blood, especially in the case of the common people, seem to have produced also in the Aryan population, different shades of complexion, which greatly favored a tendency to rigid class-restrictions originally awakened and continually fed by the lot of the servile race.

The word occurs in the Veda in the latter sense, but it is used there to mark the distinction, not between the three classes of the Aryan community, but between them on the one hand and a dark-colored hostile people on the other. The latter, called Dgsas or Dasyus, consisted, no doubt, of the indigenous tribes, with whom the Aryans had to carry on a continual struggle for the possession of the land.

(The state of Tamil Nadu reserves 69% of its college admission seats instead of 50% as mandated by the Central Government)

The above is a variety of deleted text from thruout the article. All of it was deleted due to being POV, but is likely still factually accurate. Please have a look and see if you can reword it and find a place for it here or elsewhere. Thanks,
Sam Spade 12:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Separate page?

The current page is organised horribly. I suggest that the Indian caste sytem should be put onto a separate page as that would make this page much easier to read. --Lesouris 04:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Totally mixed-up page

This page is mixed up. The problem it starts with a word "Caste" which is a Eurocentric view of the world, and used to map MOSTLY Indian social situation. If we are going to discuss the Indian social system, let's use indigenous terms only (translations do no merit). So, let us use - varna, jaati, brahmin, kshatriya, etc.

In that context - we can add details about origins, transitions, current situation, etc. It is totally inappropriate to use the unenlightened use of a Euro-label as a Wikipedia entry point for Indian "varna-ashram-vyavastha".

As someone mentioned, all societies have division of labors and various rights and privileges. These are modern-day castes, with university education deciding what caste the person enters into. While not by birth, they correate directly to standard of living and rights and privileges.

Furthermore, this page does not take into account two parallel modern phenomena: 1) Intermarriages and modern/urban changes in India 2) Global professions as "castes" due to extended education leading to limited mobility, lock-in (good & bad) and steep loss of livelihood in certain cases (e.g. well paid professional --> grocery clerk)

[edit] Radical demerger

I moved some text to Indian caste system, List of Indian castes and wiktionary. Some text from the old version has been lost, notably material to do with religious and perhaps economic/functional aspects, which should be integrated into Indian caste system by someone more familiar with those aspects. I just wanted to make a start on un-mixing the topic.Rd232 18:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] There is no mention of advantages of the Indian caste system (Varnashram)

Although most of the material on caste system focusses on its demerits, there are a few advantages to it:

  1. It gives structure to society making administration easier.
  2. It ensures availability of human resources to meet the demands of each varna's duties.
  3. It ensures that people of each varna execute their duties efficiently.

The varnashram in India was invented at a time when people were more spiritual and righteous and as such stipulations to prevent misuse were not in place. With time although the caste system was not changed, people became more and more corrupt resulting in gross misuse. This point has to be noted because I feel it is best to condemn misusers of the system rather than the system itself or Hinduism for having such a system. Rohitbd 15:27, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jati, kulam and/or varna

"The word "caste" is used to translate the Sanskrit word "jati". It should not be misidentified with the sanskrit "varna" which designates class" seems a bit simplistic. I'm reading a text by Béteille where it says the use of the english word "caste" to designate both jati and varna is pretty unproblematic, and also common among english speaking indians. - chris

[edit] Sri Lankan caste system

I have added this section 220.247.240.241 16:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] African Caste

I have mentioned the caste system in Rwanda, Burundi and eastern Congo. There are obviously other similar systems in the rest of Africa. 220.247.240.241 16:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The possible classification of the massacres in Rwanda and Burundi as 'Caste Warfare' rather than 'ethnic warfare' has been removed, this viewpoint being identified as one of 'proponents of caste' by the editor (65.78.17.138). I have removed this reference, as it is POV. The editor's other contributions indicate a casteist position.220.247.229.123 13:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Readded

I have readded the religious theory about the caste system. It is exceedingly important for it to remain here because it tell us about the origin of the caste system. Kindly do to revert it back, otherwise the whole article will appear foolish. Further, the Vedic arguments are apt for this article, and not for the Veda article. Cygnus_hansa 09:34, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Caste-based politics have strong roots in many Indian states, as most politicians have an inability or unwillingness to discuss economic and social issues in any rational manner.

If that isn't POV, then Germany was neutral in WWII. I'm not really in a mood to delve into this already disputed article, nor do I know enough to really touch it anyway, but this could use a good cleaning with at least some minor attempts at NPOV... FireWorks 03:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Quota POV

I removed the following paragraph which was formerly the third in the "Modern Perceptions of Caste" section. It's thoroughly anti-reservation POV which elaborates on the anti-reservation arguments already included in the second paragraph.

Proponents of Affirmative Action or Reservations usually point to the centuries old system of social and economic reservation, despite the fact that India was under foreign Christian and Islamic rule for centuries and all Hindu castes were oppressed. Opponents of Affirmative Action tend to say that one needs to look to the future, not the past, if society is to prosper. The quota system in India resulted in further balkanization and stratification of the Hindu society by law, unlike during the Muslim rule (Mughal Dynasty or Nizam Dynasty) or British Raj, when there was discrimination against all Hindus. In the US, there was state mandated segregation imposed by courts of law, which necessitated Affirmative Action. Unlike Affirmative Action in the US, Reservations in India have no uniform basis. It is not difficult to see that Affirmative Action or Reservations or Quotas may be impossible beyond a certain point - society may not generate sufficient wealth to maintain such a social mechanism.

Touchstone 18:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HOW to abolish castes ?

To make a beginning we have to start somewhere. Let me start it thisway: Most schools in India while trying to admit a child to the school require an applicatiom form to be filled by the parents or Guardian. This form will have a column for caste and another for religion without exception. Now, how to get rid of this is something to be thought of carefuly and implemented with ofcourse, Government's help. If we can succeed in this we can proceed from here on. NANDA 59.92.134.54 11:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Caste is a form of collusion to divide and rule in India and can be abolished when 85% of the marriages are inter-caste and inter-religious.Known 08:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Why should we get rid of a mention of caste. Americans mention race. Muslims mention whether you are descended from Mohamed or not.Netaji 20:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separation of State and Religion

India is Democratic and Republic country. Prime Minister of India and Constitutional Head The President of India greet yearly more than 20 times on various religious days such as Holi, Dassera, Deepawali, Ide, Moharam, Buddha Jayanti, Mahaveer Jayanti and Narvan Days. Indian Parliament has enacted many laws on religion and even help the Muslims for Hajj aainst the principle of Koran. Kumbh Mellas are orgainsed with the help of Indian Government. There are separate laws for marriage for Hindus, Mushlims, etc., and no uniformity. The Constitutuion of India clearly say about scientific thinking and in actual practice the President offers Official Prayers such Ajmer Chaddar and Amritsar Visit. I request the reader of this talk to press the Government of India to separate the state and religion. vkvora2001@yahoo.co.in vkvora 16:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] delete purity section

I propose deleting that section as it has too much detail, personal opinions and is unsourced. Unless I hear objections I will do so shortly.--Pranathi 04:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

please do so; it also seems to be plagiarized, and sloppily so yEvb0 19:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed comment

WARNING! Propaganda websites aimed against Brahmin caste

Removed the above comment. Reason: Caste system is akin to racism. Brahmins should not be offended by these sites, they should rather see them as information that people that oppose caste-ism would offer readers. Ofcourse any type of information related to caste is bound to offend one or the other. The warning is not necessary. Readers are wiser to figure out whats offensive and whats not. Thx

Very difficult to do while Brahmins are being ethnically cleansed by the lower castes from Jharkhand, Tamil Nadu, by muslims in Kashmir etc, don;t you think?Netaji 06:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing this page

Too much and too complicated, need to simplify article with content moved to appropriate section. Most of should be merged with Indian caste system. RaveenS 17:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fix the page

I agree with RaveenS. This article should only contain high level representation of caste. Country-specific caste system should be in seperate articles. I recommend that we delete content related to Indian Caste System in this page. The para under Indian caste system in the article seems to misrepresent the status of forward castes and backward castes. But in my opinion this is something that needs to be dealt with in the Indian Caste System article. Let's keep this article clear and concise. If no one has issues I will update the page after a week--- C9

[edit] Cover up operation

This whole article has been Vandalised by High caste hindus with an objective to cover up their misdeeds. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yeditor (talk • contribs) .

This page is getting repeatedly changed by Bhramins( upper castes) who have an ulterior motive in covering up the opression of lower castes. I have reversed the anti quota POV and pro Bhramin POV from modern developments--Yeditor 05:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC

For an Authentic account of India's untouchables refer National Geographic article--Yeditor 05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] subhash bose

is a confirmed sockpuppeteer. He is goes around with a variety of names and vandalises pages related to dalits and caste and fills them up with Hindu propoganda material. I am reversing all his edits--Yeditor 11:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Do so and I"ll report you for vandalism. You already have a bad history on wikipedia (see Yeditor's talk page) and have been repeatedly warned for vandalizing other articles. I am watching you.Netaji 12:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casta in Latin America

There should be some kind of subarticle on the casta concept and paintings from the era of Spanish and Portuguese control of Latin America. This is a well-known area of Latin American art and there are whole books on the topic. The paintings seem to have been an attempt at a racial version of a biological taxonomy, purporting to show what different racial combinations looked like and assigning each a name.

I am adding this issue to the Talk pages of three different related articles in hopes of prodding someone more knowledgeable to give this article a shot. I personally know only a little, having been introduced to the subject by a web site I've long since misplaced and an art exhibition here in Dallas (probably at the Meadows Museum of Art, which specializes in Latin-American art).Lawikitejana 20:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dalits attacking temples

Regarding the most recent edit, Holywarrior removed it on questionable grounds. I reworded it. The original edit said that the Dalits were "incited by missionaries" to attack temples. While this is almost certainly true IMHO, the source does not say so. Thus, I removed that part. However, the source does mention the attack and the onset of violence in certain circles of the Dalit movement and so needs mentioning.Shiva's Trident 12:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed it again. And more has to be removed. This is just a compilation of anecdotical evidence, backed up by newspapers as reference and websites of obscure standings. Please review WP:NOR and other core policies applying here. In an article of central importance like this here, and in an area which is well research, an encyclopedia article article has to rely on secondary sources of first layer quality, especially scholarly research. Not on your own interpretation of newspaper reports and what you've found on the web. --Pjacobi 12:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The Hindu is not a website of obscure standing. It is a highly notable newspaper. I think you are under a misconception. The section "modern developments" do not have a lot of scholarly research but mostly newspaper articles. Not original research on my part. I have taken statements from teh article and reworded them to avoid copyvios.Shiva's Trident 13:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that section "modern developments" do not have a lot of scholarly research but mostly newspaper articles is exactly the problem. This is not the stuff that makes a good encyclopedia. I've counted "The Hindu" as newspaper, obscure website refers to "http://www.dalitstan.org", of which it is highly unclear how representative it is. And the link is broken BTW. But even the very best news sources, whether "The Hindu" or "BBC", only report single incidents. If you synthesize a general trend out of these, it is original research. If you avoid clear statements, by "some say" clauses, it is "weasel words". Neither helps in writing a good article. --Pjacobi 13:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Link may be shifted to External link section for the time being.The article needs massive clean up.Such insertion does not help building article.HW 13:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I partly agree. In fact, I support getting rid of the whole section, or merging it with the other article. However, as long as the section is there, it must be accurate. As far as claims of OR are concerned, the whole SECTION has bits and peices of OR, not only (allegedly) part of MY edits (all that stuff about upper castes gaming the system etc is also OR), I just made it neutral, that's all. Perhaps we should put an OR tag there and see if we can reach a consensus about getting rid of the section altogether. What say?Shiva's Trident 17:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
In a way, it's huge problem here with all articles on Indian caste system (IMHO, as I without domain knowledge follow from formal reasons and total unreadability of the affected articles) which has to be adressed by a coalition of volunteers knowledgeable in the domain and willing to adhere to Wikipedia policy. I was already trying to get attention at Wikipedia_talk:Notice_board_for_India-related_topics#Indian_caste_system but so far without response.
But now speaking about the concrete section under discussion, I have to say that the restored version simply doesn't address the severe problems mentioned. I've done a 80% revert but with letting the dalitstan.org sentence stay, clarifying that this is considered extremism.
Deleting the entire section would be a sound alternative.
Pjacobi 18:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted again. The version was really bad:

  • Putting "one incident" into on overview article is totally misguieded.
  • Conntecting statements from dalitstan.org to "Dalits frequently..." is the same as taking statement from Brigate Rosse and citing them as "Italian workers frequently...".

Pjacobi 08:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Hindu

The assertion that Dalitstan is anti-Hindu is pretty dubious. It for sure is anti-Brahmin and anti-Casteist, but I don't think it's anti-Hindu. Mar de Sin Speak up! 21:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalitstan is down right now, but it was definitely an anti-Hindu site. I read it a couple of times and they made caricatures accusing Hindus (not just Brahmins) of various fake crimes like "drinking blood" and "conspiring with Jews to take over the world". They said "Hindu and Hindutva are the same", itself a blatantly anti-Hindu accusation.Shiva's Trident 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"Anti-Hindu" is a very wide term and in the way it is being used here is only a conversation stopper.One should accept the "Anti-Hindu" bias as long as it is verifiable from reliable sources and not any individual author on Wikipedia.TerryJ-Ho 01:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"Hindutva","fascist","RSS agent", "revisionist" and other words are also conversation stoppers.One should accept the "Hindutva" bias as long as it is verifiable from reliable sources and not any individual author on Wikipedia. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, if we are to go down that slippery slope, websites that do cite verifiable sources in their articles like Jihadwatch.org and dhimmiwatch.org should be allowed :).Shiva's Trident 09:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Plus, what about anti-Semitic sites like www.jewwatch.org? They cite "reliable sources" too? Hmmmmm???Shiva's Trident 09:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Then cite your sources! :) Mar de Sin Speak up! 00:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caste system and surnames

Is there a list classifying Hindu names into their different castes? Especially into the 4 majour castes. Politis 16:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reading MAterial

tam brahmanamaham manye

vritten hi bhavet dvijah Bakaman Bakatalk 00:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

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