Talk:Capoeira

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[edit] Proposed pruning of Music and The game sub-sections

Move to it's own pages? The Capoeira music article needs to be improved, suggest taking the bulk of the content from the capoeira article to the music article and leaving behind a summary. Will add summary for the Maculele and Puxada de rede subsections soon. Tartaruga 16:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is NOT a capoerista

  • One of the challengers in Bruce Lee's Game of Death (1978) was NOT a Capoeirist. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a JEET KUNE DO user. I don't know how the hell someone could make a mistake this huge...gawddamn, at least watch the movie before they post information.

Anyways, I changed it in the section.

[edit] Mannheim

Unless I'm mistaken, the inclusion of individual school web pages in the section titled "International School Directories" has been decided against. However, someone continually has been re-adding Capoeira Mannheim to the list. I'm wondering if this is simply an issue of misunderstanding due to language, seeing as the linked page is entirely in German. The persistance of the person adding the site has become taxing, they literally check the page every 10 hours and re-edit it. 1) Am I correct in that the page does not fit the requirements for the ISD link area, and 2) could we do something about this person's constant reposting if I am? Thank you.

Macaco 15:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been rv-ing Mannheim's additions as well. I've attempted to contact them with the email link given on their site to perhaps reason with them on their actions and intentions but have yet to receive their reply. Tartaruga 14:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The spamming continues... Tartaruga 16:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

I added a section on the ladainhas, chulas and crridos. Let me know what you think. -Asbestos 26 Oct 04

I'm going to create a page on Capoeira music, with the words to many ladainhas, chulas and corridos. Wikipedia has a policy against song lyrics, but I believe that this only applies to comercial songs (especially as they do have the words to national anthems and hymns). Let me know if you think that this is a good idea, and please feel free to contribute.

New Page: Capoeira songs

--Asbestos 11:53, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Another New Page: Capoeira toques --Coalhada


[edit] Internationally renowned mestres

I'm worried that this listing is going to become yet another School Listing fiasco. What's the criteria for an "internationally renowned mestre"? I've no qualms about listing mestre who've genuinely promoted the art and further developed it. I'm also agreeable to living Mestres who're still continuing their work.

But I wish to know where do we draw the line? Do we list mestres based on the number of students they have (and how do we verify this)? Years of experience? Number of DVDs and TV appearances? I don't wish to offend anyone by inadvertibly removing a link to an obscure contemporary mestre but I don't want to see the wholesale inclusion of anyone who calls themselves a mestre either.

Furthermore I also feel that a list must include the corresponding article to exist first, prior to inclusion. Otherwise, it's kinda pointless. Tartaruga 04:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, though I'm not entirely sure what the solution should be. If we do create some standards of notability, I'd suggest that those who don't make the standard are listed in another article, say Capoeira mestres or something, and Mestre so-and-so can redirect to the metre's paragraph in that article. I'm not sure how to measure notability, though, since web presence would hardly be a fair ranking.
On a slightly different topic, I'm about to start creating an Angola lineage tree at Template:Capoeira Angola lineage. Any help would be appreciated. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 17:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey, that Capoeira Angola Lineage template is cool. BUT i'm worried about how we can verify the accuracy when people start adding themselves to the tree... Tartaruga 01:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, first, I din't think that anyone but Mestres should be on the trees, so hopefully we won't get random people adding themselves. Also, the trees probably shouldn't get too deep — I'm not sure we should be including anyone more than , say, four deep from the top.
For the Anoleiros under Pastinha I don't think accuracy is too difficult: Angola Mestres take this seriously, and I don't think anyone would claim to have been made a mestre under Joao Pequeno, say, unless they really were. I was, however, looking online for an official family tree — I saw one up on the wall at Cobrinha's school a while ago, but don't know if there is an online version.
I don't know much about other Angoleiros who come from a different lineage than Pastinha — I know Mestre Nô and many others have different lineages. If we have articles on mestres with interesting lineages and someone wants to make one, that's fine.
Regional I know very little about. If any of the mestres that we have articles on were taught by Mestre Bimba, then perhaps we should create a tree for that. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I've changed my mind, and have now created an article at Capoeira lineage under Mestre Pastinha. More in the section at the bottom... — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Why not rank Mestres based on their work. Mestre Jelon Vieira has multiple venues where he has demonstrated his skills, his teaching effectiveness, and his mastery of both capoeira but also Brazilian culture. Does this merit inclusion Duskshade

[edit] About External Links

I've often spent time removing links to schools--some really good sites (it's getting to be quite often as more and more people are discovering the Capoeira article), some really bad (a matter of opinion, but I removed them all). And as you can see, Notable Mestres are getting long, and there's even a stub for a Capoeira association linked to See Also.

I propose that all modern mestres, capoeira schools, capoeira associations and groups refrain from adding their link or cross reference to their "external link" stub (with no intention of wikifying). Instead, have those articles be categorized, and the Capoeira article will link to the respective categories. Suggestions for the categories are Capoeira Mestres and Capoeira Schools and Associations (BUT really, you ought to get your group's site listed on the DMOZ directory instead of on the Wikipedia). Tartaruga 01:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur that the list has become overly long and non-encyclopedic, as well as NPOV to a degree. Unfortunately, the vaste majority of writers interested in contributing to this article are capoeristas with their own loyalties to their Mestre, so you can't count on NPOV. Any arguments over who qualifies as "notable" are futile. The list is uneccessary in any case, as the category "Capoeira Mestres" is sufficient. I'd like to call for agreement to remove all Mestres but Bimba and Pastinha from the list.--Spyrral 23:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Done. All mestres with articles have been categorized, and the list deleted. I added the link to the Mastre database there, so that people can see that such a list exists elsewhere and there doesn't need to be one here. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 19:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lineage

Since I haven't seen any good resources on the web showing capoeira lineages, I thought it would be useful to start creating articles here. I've just created Capoeira lineage under Mestre Pastinha, although I'd like a little help with it:

  • Getting the tree as complete as possible (since it's now its own article, it can be pretty large)
  • Editing and adding to the article, to make it as encyclopedic as possible and not just a database, which might get deleted.

If anyone else wants to create lineage of Bimba, that would be fine too.

Now instead of having the entire lineage on each mestre's article, I thought we could just show the direct lineage of the mestre, i.e. in a straight line, and link back to the relevent main lineage.

As for articles on each individual mestre, I'm still unsure about that. Here's what I propose: If an article can be written on a mestre that is substantial in length (beyond "He's the mestre at my school, and this is what my school is like:..."), then that should imply that there is a lot of information out there on the mestre ands therefore notability(?). Otherwise, for mestres with only a few lines written about them, consign them all to the articles Capoeira Angola mestres and Capoeira Regional mestres, or whatever.

Thoughts/Comments? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I can already see it now, a huge long list of names under the header "Notable Angola Mestres" with external links to their respective schools. I'm surprised the Kung Fu and Yoga articles don't have this problem (List of famous Kung Fu Masters anyone?). Tartaruga 01:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capoeira in Anglo-American popular culture?

Why did Capoeira in popular culture get changed to Capoeira in Anglo-American popular culture? I see that most of the info in that section was "Anglo-American", but the title seems needlessly specific and exclusionary — if there's interesting stuff to be said about capoeira films or games in any other cultures I don't see why it shouldn't be there. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 04:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • People seem to forget that it's not only anglo-Americans who use Wikipedia. KEJ 08:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also Kalarippayattu?

I don't see the relevance. Can we remove this reference? Tartaruga 11:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Personally, I think the link to the ICAF/FICA haedquarters should stay (www.capoeira-angola.org), as it's the most centralized organization in Capoeira Angola (and has plenty of info). However, if you don't think it belongs there, maybe we need a section for these kinds of links. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 13:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I went over the ICAF site the few times I saw it linked in (Sorry, if it was you who kept adding it back in--I was the one who kept removing it). I do agree with what you said above. But I also feel that there were many external link sites which had plenty of capoeira info/media--but was excluded for being more "commercial". I'm for the stand that as long as a site has ANY leanings towards "marketing" products or classes for monetary gains whether for non-profit (now that's a conundrum) or for profit, it should be excluded, no matter how well intended the site is (Do we link a commercial Capoeira school's site which has lots of free info, free classes, videos and free downloads of poster sized pictures of legendary Mestres? I digress). General Information has to be that, "General" NPOV information. I suppose we can have a separate page listing so called "Non Profit Capoeira Organizations/Federations" but I believe it will become a large unmanageable list-o-links which again, really should belong in a DMOZ category. Tartaruga 01:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
For the record, the wu-wien.ac.at external link is the only link item which also has a text link to classes organised by the author's group (at the bottom of the page but it also links to other groups), but the information that site provides is likely to be the most comprehensive listing of Capoeira moves + pictures (and also one of the earliest pages on Capoeira I've ever known) and thus I felt it's "General" nature far outweighed it's "marketing" goals. Tartaruga 01:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capoeira in popular culture

This section is getting huge. Do we need to have every computer game in which some character made a move that looked like capoeira? Every movie where someone does a flip? Imagine what the karate article would look like if every movie with a karate scene in it was listed.

I suggest that we prune down the section considerably, including only a few noteworthy examples of games and movies in which capoeira is featured, and note that it is become quite widespread. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I think only things that "broke new ground" should be listed. For example, the first couple of appearances of Capoeira in videogames could be listed, but omit the rest, unless they are particularly noteworthy. The first artist to use a berimbau in a record, etc; and then these could mention the first time(s) these happened in Brazil and then the first time(s) abroad; etc. --Cotoco 16:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Time to either prune off this section or branch off a separate article. I'm all for branching--but I don't see other martial art articles setting this sort of precedence? (Kung Fu in popular culture?) Tartaruga 14:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
A strong second to the call to branch this off or get it down to a single paragraph... --Focomoso 10:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Done! Focomoso 11:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I was gonna take a crack at it, but you beat me to it! Thanks! Tartaruga 16:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone answer as to whether the fighting in The Mighty Quinn was Capoeira? --Mr kitehead 03:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

-I made a point of removing the erroneous info, such as suggesting that "Zum Zum Zum" originated in Only The Strong and that Kareem Abdul Jabar was a Capoeirista. --Toquinha 17:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

About "Zum Zum Zum" in the Mazda ads, it should be noted that the version they used in the ad (at least the original version, as they started mutating it over time) is indeed (if I remember correctly) based on the song as present in the soundtrack for Only the Strong. Note to the bass line, for example. I don't know if the information should be there or not, but it's apparently not erroneous. --Cotoco 04:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Regional"

...Regional (pronounced 'heh-jeeh-oh-nahl' or '-now')...

I think that's totally worthless. The word "regional" has the same meaning in portuguese and in english, so there's no point in describing the portuguese pronounce. The only thing is that to brazilian ears the english pronounce might sound a bit like "original capoeira", but that doesn't make it wrong. That's still not a issue of needing to explain the pronounce as if was a japanese or chinese term, with no equal/equivalent word, I think. --Extremophile 00:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Hmm... It is pronounced quite differently in Brazilian Portuguese than in English (or other languages that also have 'regional' in their vocabularies), so I think that a clarification of the Brazilian Portuguese pronuncuation is okay (it's of course pronounced differently in European Portuguese), but I'd prefer an IPA transcription rather than an orthographically based one like the one that's presently provided in the text. It's true that the word means almost the same thing in Portuguese and English, but that doesn't - in my opinion - have anything to do with it's pronuncuation. KEJ 20:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Even though the word exists with the same spelling and meaning in English, when referring to Capoeira Regional it is usually pronounced as in Portuguese, even by English-speaking Capoeiristas. --Cotoco 20:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
And capoeiras that speak other languages than English and Portuguese ;-) KEJ 08:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I had expanded on it to make it somewhat more clear but I also think the bit about pronunciation is pretty unnecessary. First I think guides to (Brasilian) Portuguese translation don't really have a place in this lemma. Second, any attempt to put such guidance here (be it in IPA or not) will be hopelessly incomplete because pronunciation throughout the Portuguese speaking world varies wildly. Illustir 17:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If I may interject here, it seems to me that people use wikipedia to um...look up things they have heard about but don't know what are. If I were some guy on the street and heard somebody mention that he did capoeira regional without seeing it written, I would assume the word was spelled with an H in the absence of any experience with the Portuguese language, and would be grateful for wikipedia's assistance in correcting my misapprehension. MrGalt 22:38, 13 November 2006

[edit] Should "Capoeira" be capitalized?

The words 'Capoeira', 'Mestre' and names of Capoeira moves should be capitalized? Tartaruga 03:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

As I undertand it, no, these are common nouns and should not be capitalised, in the same way that you don't capitalise 'football' or 'scissor kick'. An exception is that 'mestre' should be capitalised when used as a person's title, e.g., Mestre Bimba. Deditos 09:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC).
Did my best to convert 'Capoeira' to 'capoeira' (including 'Capoeira Angola' to 'capoeira Angola' and 'Capoeira Regional' to 'capoeira regional') without changing proper names of schools and organizations. Sorry if I missed any. Focomoso 10:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should, in this context, "Angola" be capitalized, but not "regional"? I assume you decided that based on the fact that Angola is a country's name. But, in this case, we're not talking about the country, it's simply the name of the style. Therefore, I am of the opinion that both "angola" and "regional" should be treated the same way; either both or neither should be capitalized. --Cotoco 06:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is common English usage. When a compound common noun, which should not be capitalized, includes a proper noun or adjective, the proper word is capitalized. Look at American football vs. gridiron football. Or English football vs. association football. Focomoso 23:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cordão de Ouro

what happen to the info regarding cordão de ouro? It doesn't even have its own article. I suggest putting at least some info on the page, as i believe its quite popular in Europe.

Someone will still have to take the initiative to write up that article. We're not paid writers you know? Tartaruga 14:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performance capoeira

Just wondering whether anyone has given any thought to adding something to this page about performance capoeira, by which I mean capoeira that is performed on stage for the benefit of impressing an audience, for example, with corporate floor shows that specialize in Brazilian forms. Like they might have a samba number, an axe, a lambada, and performance capoeira. Does anyone know enough about this to write about it? Mona-Lynn 22:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC) True, but then who took away the section?


[edit] Styles of Capoeira

I think this section needs a rewrite. A couple of points:

  • While some groups/mestres identify clearly as Angola or regional, there are many who do not come from either Bimba or Pastinha's linage and fall somewhere in the middle. I think the great overlap between groups/mestres should be addressed here before the two major styles are defined.
  • I don't understand the line about Angolaros mimicking regional for performances. If it's supposed to mean they make fun of them, that should be stated clearly (I think that's what it means).
  • In the Capoeira Regional section, "Regional is a ... more martially-oriented game." Really? I don't think we can say one way or the other which is more martial, Angola or regional. I recommend removing this. However, something about regional being a more systematic way of teaching capoeira might be appropriate here.
  • The whole thing could use a good copy edit.

I volunteer to do the rewrite, but want a little feed back first. Focomoso 23:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

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