Talk:Canton of Berne

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[edit] SPELLING?

I suggest the spelling of Berne rather than Bern. This so as we've got the Berne Conventions and the articles on Switzerland generally use Berne. Kokiri 22:39, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree [1]. -- User:Docu

BBC World hast just used Berne when reporting about the Pope's visit to the city. --Akkolon 11:29, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The city calls itself Berne on its webpage (in English). The canton does not have an english page, but anyway I like Berne better than Bern. In French it is also Berne so it can't be totaly wrong.

As a Bernese, I suggest we retain "Bern", as it is the locally used (German) variant of the name. "Berne" is the traditional English and French name, in the way that e.g. Beijing used to be called Peking in English and German. Nowadays, I believe it is usual to generally use the local instead of the traditional variant of a foreign place's name. -- Sandstein 19:57, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree entirely. I am sure that Bern should be the article title and Berne should be a redirect, which will pick up references e.g. to the convention. The city (and presumakly the canton) is really called Bern and I feel that we shouldn't impose our anglophone view on that. 138.37.199.199

I cannot agree with this. Rome is also called Rome and not Roma on this English Wikipedia, and the Italian capital is not any more English than Berne. As for Beijing, it's called Beijing in the English article, and not 北京 as it "ought to be" in the local language -- and the French Wikipedia entry on London says Londres and not London. Let's use translated forms where they are available. JREL 09:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

"Berne" is the older British English spelling of the German language "Bern". It would seem both are used today, but "Bern" seems to be somewhat more prevalent in English language texts. TGC55 18:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Both are indicated in the English dictionary I just looked, indeed. How did you measure the prevalence of the two terms in English ? With regards to the argument above, I agree with JREL over Sandstein; however, if both terms are accepted, the point is moot. The fact that the city's website chooses the Berne spelling is the tie-breaker for me. Schutz 10:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I must say that, while Berne is accepted, it is far from the standard. In every atlas I have checked it has been spelled Bern- in both the American National Geographic World Atlas and the British Dorling-Kindersley World Atlas. The CIA World Factbook uses Bern as the spelling, and BBC actually does not use the French spelling, as can be seen in their official country profile of Switzerland in the following link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1035212.stm

Furthermore, the Bern Tourism website also uses the German spelling, seen in the following link: http://www.berninfo.com/en/welcome.cfm

The UNESCO World Heritage Profile uses the French spelling, however its links all redirect to websites using the German spelling. As the governmental entities of English-speaking countries such as the United Kingdom and the Unites States, the majority of Swiss websites, and by far the majority of the people in the region itself use the Bern spelling, I think it should be apparent that that particular spelling is the appropriate spelling for the article. Schnabeltier_Angriff 18:30, June 16 2006 (UTC)


BBC in its reporting generally seems to use "Berne". This isn't meant to be French spelling, but English. The specific page you quoted also uses "Rappen" which is rather German. City and canton of Berne use the same spelling in English: city "Berne" and canton "Berne". Maps often use the spelling in the local language, which would be "Bern". -- User:Docu

The new web site of the canton has some English content. Like the web page of the city of Berne, it uses the French spelling: [2]. ― j. 'mach' wust | ⚖ 06:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Bern is certainly more common than Berne in the English usage I've seen. Gene Nygaard 02:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, pretty much every single map, globe, or atlas spells it as "Bern". -The Gonz 03:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling request for comment

In the discussion above, we don't seem to have consensus on what variant to use for either the city or the canton: Bern or Berne. I'm somewhat indifferent, personally, but as someone who edits many Bern(e)-related articles, I'd appreciate some consistency. So I'm opening this as a proper style RfC. Please bring this to the attention of users who might be interested in it. I suggest we first assemble links and sources below, and then discuss the issue. Sandstein 21:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevant policies, precedents or projects

[edit] Usage in reliable English language sources

[edit] Bern

Comment: Bern is the canton and city's name in Standard German, the prevalent language in the canton and the dominant language in the city (apart from the Bärndütsch dialect). German is an official language of the canton.


[edit] Berne

Comment: Berne is the canton and city's traditional name in French and English. The canton has some 20% native French speakers, the city probably a lot fewer. French is an official language of the canton.

Official websites:


[edit] Other variants

  • Bärn is the canton and city's name in the local Bärndütsch dialect, which is not widely used in written documents.

[edit] Discussion

I think the convention of going with the common English name is meant to only apply in situations where English-speaking people would recognize the English name but not the foreign-language name. As an ignorant US-ian, I honestly don't recognize one more than the other, and in that case, I think the Swiss municipalities titling convention should prevail - Bern. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 21:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the principle you're proposing (i.e., considering whether a geographic name in the local language would be recognizable to an average English-speaking person) is robust. It seems to me that it would lead us to have an article named Italia rather than Italy, for example. The question is part of the larger topic of whether to use common English names. Some people appear to think that using a name from the locally-spoken language is inherently more "respectful" towards the inhabitants than using a common English name. Others disagree and might say that not using the common English name sounds like an implicit indication that the place is too unimportant for its name to have a specifically English form. In any case, the question is not really worth the amount of heated controversy it can in some cases evolve to, and my impression is that the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) is meant to prevent pointless controversy by minimizing the number of cases where we have to finely weigh the cultural merits of different name forms in a particular case, and as such it should be followed unless there are overwhelming reasons not to. This appears to be a case where there are reasons pulling in both reasons, but none of them particularly strong, in which case the general convention ought to prevail. Henning Makholm 18:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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