Talk:Candi of Indonesia
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[edit] Source?
It would be good to see which text/website you folks are using - as I have differing points of "location" for some of the javanese ones SatuSuro 15:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- The source is extremely dodgy - it was from a tourist brochure I have - so I wouldn't be surprised if there are lots of errors. Feel free to fix with more reliable information. (MichaelJLowe 22:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Locations
I have shuffled some already - someone hasnt seen the candis or has a problem with compass directions? SatuSuro 15:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Geographically challenged tourist brochures and editors etc etc
There are some Candi articles on the ID wikipedia, at id:Kategori:Candi. I notice doing some google searches tonight that there are quite a few Candi missing from my list, particularly in East Java ([1], [2]). Would be worthwhile finding a few reliable Candi websites and merging in the missing entries. Agree with SatuSuro that one article per Candi is probably overkill, but there may be some more interesting/important Candi which could be an exception. Would be great to have at least an overview map to see the distribution of Candi across Java, but it may be difficult to get the necessary geo data to produce it? Just reiterating, I won't have the time in the near future to help out with further with this, but I'm sure you can have some fun with this article without me! (MichaelJLowe 13:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC))
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- Most sources that I have used in the past separate the east java from the central - with separate maps, and the more ddetailed actually do (a) Kedu Valley, sides of Merapi
(b) Prambanan area for example. I think one overview map is not a good idea - 3 or 4 so that the detail is good enough. SatuSuro 13:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Status of this article
If it has been tagged by hindu - it needs the buddhist tag as well. Also - now that proper refs have been cited - I would suggest that we concentrate on a -separate- list of all identified candi in Indonesia - but this article to have the main clusters written about ? Anyone any ideas on this? SatuSuro 02:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Now it has the buddhist project on it - strongly suggest we follow the indic guidelines - even though there is literature suggesting that there are traces of tibetan buddhism in some sites in sumatra and java SatuSuro 03:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Title name
Since this article is a stand alone list, how about changing the title into List of Candi of Indonesia or List of Candi in Indonesia ? Similar to other list articles. I have made similar page with List of volcanoes in Indonesia. — Indon (reply) — 10:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Support - good suggestion! My preference - List of Candi in Indonesia -yes! - SatuSuro 11:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comments → Candi or Candis ? — Indon (reply) — 12:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- as afar as I can tell the usage in the Miksic text has candi as both singular and plural SatuSuro 12:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment List or not, there are other things that need to be considered. I think the title needs to be changed. "Candi" simply means "temple" – the word doesn’t specify that its religious association or its age. What about all the Hindu temples in use all over Bali today? What about Buddhist temples in use in cities all over the country? This article is clearly specifically about Hindu and Buddhist temples of antiquity (ie, temples from ancient times). Which I think is FINE and a reasonable topic. But this must be defined in either the article’s heading or the introduction – preferably both. We might also want to think why we list Buddhist and Hindu together - perhaps it is fine (ie, i think there is value in listing ALL ancient temples here), as long as we can justify it. Anyway, I will give it some thought and look out for the comments of others.
- Pokoknya, I think the content of the article is fine and makes sense (ie, ancient temples) but article title needs to reflect this. How about Ancient Temples of Indonesia?--Merbabu 02:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Response on the above will be delayed a day or so, thanks for the comments! SatuSuro 08:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Followup - For a start a far more extended introduction is needed - agreed. The issue of how to collate the information of the phenomena that are called candi is difficult. The Indonesian Heritage Series edited by Miksic tends to put the candi by ascribed date into the 'eras' - and as a consequence can identiffy specific design issues that relate to an era- this can be a stone carving - design motifs and whole candi design. Soekmono's translated thesis goes by date of each dated candi in the whole of java. Most tourist guide vbooks do similar to the original intent of this article - those that are closest to identifiable locations - such as the prambanan area and so on. Candi does not always simply mean 'temple' and if we follow soekmono and others (such as the quote placeed at the beginning of the article) it can mean other things as well. 'Antiquity' can be a problem - as the range that soekmono and miksic and others acribe to is the 8th to 14th centuries. I would suggest that my proposal for a separate list and a main article may or not work depending upon the way we go from here. I would be reluctant to use Ancient or Temple - and am prepared to explain at length the reasons for this - but for the moment - maybe the article stays the way it is and we simply improve the details and information in it. The reason why the temples are clumped together here is the geographic association. I have reccords and details of at least 5 sites/ locations which the evidence shows problems with a simply 'buddhist' or'hindu' label. All in all a potentially very very frustrating project - but probably the best way to stay friendly is to leave the article as it is - clean up and tweak the locations and contexts - and with limited information about the candi - the dates, designs, eras, and attirbutions can be left relatively unscathed for the moment. I do hope I have explained sufficiently. If I havent please let me know! SatuSuro 14:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Apologies
The article needs extensive renovation - locations are a mess - please excuse things while in transition and editor tries to correct 'groupings' SatuSuro 14:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Don't worry! Be bold. You are really an Indonesian person who starts a sentence with an apology. :-) — Indon (reply) — 14:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bali?
The quote at the head of the article mentions temples in Java, Sumatra and Bali, but no Balinese Candi are listed. What exactly qualifies as a Candi? Would Tampak Siring count? It's thought to be 11th century, as are nearby Gunung Kawi and Goa Gajah, but I don't know if these qualify. Anyway, Candi or not, Tampak Siring and Gunung Kawi could do with articles, so that's given me something to do! I'll go and dig out my photos and see if I've anything that's good enough to upload. Actually, this article [3] seems to indicate that Gunung Kawi does contain Candi, but I'd like someone else's opinion before adding these to the list. --Bwmodular 12:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
