Talk:Canadian Football League

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[edit] Defunct teams?

Aren't the original Alouettes/COncordes a defunct team? Jfitzg

Well, sort of...they were resurrected, with the same name, so they aren't really "defunct" anymore. Unlike the Ottawa Roughriders, since Ottawa's new team has a different name. Adam Bishop
It's like the Holy Roman Empire, I guess. I can see the point, though. By the same token, I wouldn't consider Baltimore to be defunct, but I can see how others might. Since there's enough information in the profiles of defunct teams to clarify all this I don't plan to change anything. The profiles are well done, too. Jfitzg
Does Baltimore still play somewhere? I would think they are "defunct" as a CFL team, at least. Adam Bishop
It all depends what the meaning of defunct is. They're not defunct as a business organization. If, like them, I move and change my name I don't become defunct. On the other hand, the name is definitely defunct, which is another reason I don't plan to monkey around with the list of defunct teams.

I emailed the CFL and the CFL responed that they consider the Baltimore and Montreal two different franchies Smith03

May I suggest that if the Stallions and Concordes are redirected to the Al's than they are not defunct teams and should be removed from the list of defunct teams. From What I understand from the CFL the Stallions and Al are consider two different teams and the Concordes are consider the same franchise as Als.Smith03 23:05, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Ok! there appears to be an edit war going on here. Either we resolve it here, or the page may have to be locked. Earl Andrew 18:02, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Suggestion? If the Concorde (yeh, that's the form, or was last I heard it) are still running, there ought to be a link out of Als to the new team to pick up the history, & def a disambiguation if linking into Als, for the young whippersnappers ;) who've never heard of them except as Als (or, like me, really could care less). K? Trekphiler 14:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3rd paragraph

this is erroneous and entirely misleading of what the CFL is/has ever been. the CFL has never competed with the NFL for signing American players . Bruce McNall's ownership, money, and signing of Raghib Ismail was an anamoly. the NFL is the premier football league in the world to play north american football and the CFL is in effect a de facto minor league and has been for decades. this paragraph strikes of patriotic nonesense. will change it -Mayumashu 05:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

No such thing as "North American Football" ;-) -- Earl Andrew - talk 06:54, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
While it's true that the Bruce McNall/Rocket Ismail thing had nothing to do with the equality of economy and much to do with McNall's ego, the rest of the paragraph is factual. Before the NFL's large tv contracts, there was a parity between the leagues and many American players even came to Canada to get better pay than they could get in the States. This is basically pre-1970s though. Even when Joe Theismann came to the Argonauts in 1971, the pay was not that much greater in the US that Leo the Lip couldn't talk him into coming to the CFL.
Also, the availability of Doug Flutie to play in the CFL all those years had more to do with the NFL's lack of respect for his style of play and the CFL appreciation and need for that style. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
  • In no way does the CFL "compete with the NFL for the best players". To me competing with the NFL for the best players is the USFL getting into bidding wars with the NFL over stars like Jim Kelly, Reggie White, and Steve Young, not Cfl teams picking up guys who no NFL teams have an interest in.

Xpendersx 04:02, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

    • wikt:compete does not necessarily mean it's an equal fight, it just means that the CFL wants the best but can't afford them due to NFL's higher salaries. But, you've re-worded that sentence more clearly now so it doesn't matter. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
  • i'm glad its settled.i just think that the word compete is misleading. Xpendersx 13:40, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
  • it would be more accurate to say that the CFL currently competes with Arena Football and NFL Europe for players
  • Actually, in the 50's some CFL teams had higher payrolls than many NFL teams, although they had restrictions on how many American players they could take because of Canadian content (Import, Non-import) rules that were even more severe than they are now. In fact in the 50's the Argos won a Grey Cup with all Canadian players. Stettlerj

Now it says the CFL and NFL were on "equal footing." I'm taking it out, unless someone can demonstrate a pattern of top college talent going to Canada. --djrobgordon 19:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Why are you taking it out? I can find documentation if you give me some time to find some sources. Also, keep in mind many if not most of these players would finish their careers in Canada, and so may be less known to the NFL world today. You have to remember, this was at a time before huge tv contracts when the leagues were gate driven. A much smaller television market (10% of the market), compounded by the fact that we can't compete for the best players any longer, which only reinforces the lack of television interest, is why the CFL can't compete today Stettlerj 14:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
One example that I can give right now (I'll look for more) is that in the 60's for example starting CFL quarterbacks who made the change from the CFL to the NFL came in to their first year in the NFL as the starting quarterback. Two fast examples are Sam Etcheverry and Joe Kapp. If that does not show the "equal footing" I don't know what does. Today starting quarterbacks in the CFL who go to the NFL sometimes are fourth string (eg. Ricky Ray), usually at 3rd string (Dave Dickenson), perhaps at 2nd string (Jeff Garcia). Remember just because something is one way today, does not mean it was always that way. Stettlerj 15:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is another example: Dick Thornton.
"In 1961, he was a high draft choice of the Cleveland Browns of the NFL who then immediately traded his rights to the St. Louis Cardinals. He was also selected by the Dallas Texans of the AFL and made the negotiation list of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. That winter, Thornton dealt extensively with all three teams but finally decided that Canada, with its wider field and different rules, would be the best fit for his versatile abilities."


Here is another example: Johnny Bright, a first round NFL draft choice:
"In his poignant essay "Johnny Bright - America's Loss", Hugh Wyatt contends that, "Bright might well have become the first black Heisman Trophy winner, but a brutal act of racism cost him what chance he might have had. Having already experienced first-hand the physical violence that Jackie Robinson, for all his courage, had only been threatened with, and unsure of his safety on the playing fields of his own country, he became the first-ever NFL first-round draft choice to leave for Canada.
And instead of becoming one of the best players the NFL has ever seen, he became one of the best players in the history of Canadian football, and a valued and respected member of his community when his playing days were over."


Here is another example: Bernie Faloney and here 1954 Draft:
Faloney finished fourth in the balloting for the 1953 Heisman Trophy and was drafted in the first round by the San Francisco 49ers of the National Football League but signed with the Edmonton Eskimos of the Canadian Football League.


Bart Starr had considered going to the CFL out of college (he was being lured by Winnipeg) but decided to go to the NFL. I read that when i was young in his (auto?)biography. There are many more exapmples and remember, the first round in the 50's was far smaller than it is today, it is the equivalent today of a top 10 pick. Of course CFL teams were heavily restricted in the number of Americans who could play in the CFL (much more so than today - Toronto won a Grey Cup in the 50's with only Canadian players) and secondly, many top draft picks would have chose to play in the NFL for non monetary reasons, such as to play in their home country and to play in the league they grew up watching, just as Canadian born quarterback Russ Jackson was offered a chance to start in the NFL but chose to stay in Canada. Stettlerj 15:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


And another one (this is fun): Billy Vessels a second overall draft choice in the1953 NFL Draft and Heisman winner
"Billy found an offer from the Edmonton Eskimos in the Canadian Football League to be superior to one from the Baltimore Colts of the NFL."

Cool look at all of the examples. There is no way the CFL and NFL are on equal footing. This is just like people who call McGill, U of T, or Queen's the "Harvard's of the North". The main differences between the CFL and NFL is money and a fan base, and unless the CFL can rake in as much money as NFL teams there is no comparison. Also if anyone has even been to a high school fotball team in the States you would recognize that there is a major difference in fan support, for football and most other sports, between Canada and the U.S. Foepeoso 20:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

not are, but were financially on equal footing and could compete for talent. Stettlerj 10:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] awkward

"The rules are somewhat similar except for some exceptions" sounds really awkward to me, but I'm no good at rephrasing things

[edit] CFL popularity in Baltimore?

Curiously, fan interest in the CFL has remained fairly strong in Baltimore despite the presence of their NFL team, with a noticeable minority preferring to watch Canadian football from Montreal rather than seeing their local NFL team.

I live in Montgomery County, Maryland, and my wife's cousin lives in Howard County, and until recently I worked with a Canadian who had a passing interest in the CFL; none of us have ever heard of any sort of leftover CFL support from the days of the Baltimore Stallions. The thought of a Baltimore football fan who would choose to the watch the Alouettes over the Ravens seems, well, a little bizarre. I tried a google search for "Baltimore CFL", but the only two Stallions tribute sites I turned up were small sections of much larger Ravens fan sites. Can someone produce some justification for this statement, or can I just remove it? Binabik80 20:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, there was a CBC documentary some five years ago on a group of fans preferring to watch the Als over the Ravens, but it might not be real applicable today (considering the Ravens' recent success). kelvSYC 06:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I remember hearing that too. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I also saw that report... and every year there is a small contingent from Baltimore who attend the Grey Cup if I am not mistaken. However, the article is somewhat misleading when it says that some prefer to watch the Alouettes. I could probably find more Baltimore Raven fans in Montréal than I could Alouette fans in Baltimore.- Stettlerj

Staliouettes

Judging by them going out of biz, you might find more Alouettes fans in Baltimore than Montreal. Trekphiler 14:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1986 CFL PLAYOFFS

In 1986 there was no Eastern semi-final. There was only an Eastern final which had Hamilton and Toronto playing a 2 game total point series which Hamilton won 59-56 advancing them to the Grey Cup. Why did this happen and has it ever happened before? Why were Montreal and/or Ottawa excluded from the playoffs.

Tom Kidd North Vancouver, B.C. Canada.

TKIDD@AGRICOREUNITED.COM

The following link explains that situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_CFL_season#CFL_News_in_1986
--FrankCostanza 19:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CFL/NFL records

Is there a page that has the "best of" for each league? Like most yards rushed/passed, TDs, sacks, so on, & top seasons, by player? I suggest including one... Trekphiler 14:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

A comparison of CFL and NFL records or something like that would be interesting. heqs 15:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 20-foreigner quota and US based teams

I seem to recall that one of the issues with the CFL expansion into the US was that the 20-person limit on non-Canadian players, which applied to Canadian teams, was illegal and unenforceable in the United States (as would be a 20-person limit on non-American players, under current US law). Some argued that this gave the US teams an advantage, as they had a much larger talent pool to draw from (as the US has around 9x the population of Canada; the games of American and Canadian football being sufficiently similar that a good player in one could often switch to the other). Is my recollection correct, or am I all wet? --EngineerScotty 05:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That was a huge issue. Of course, a lot of the American teams chose to have American personel who did not know a lot about the canadian game, and tended to choose players who would excel at American Football and not players who would excel at Canadian Football (for example Sacramento Gold Miners, with management personel from the WLAF chose huge offensive linemen who could not take the 25 second clock, the larger field, and the extra yard between offensive and defensive linemen). However when coaches who understood the canadian game went to the USA, such as Don Mathews, they excelled under this advantage of not having 20 person limit, and in the last year with american teams the american teams performed better than the canadian teams on average. Stettlerj 14:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

as would be a 20-person limit on non-American players, under current US law

I wonder why they didn't do what Major League Soccer did:

Unlike most European leagues, which generally have fairly loose roster limits, the full roster for each MLS team is limited to a maximum of 18 senior players, plus a maximum of ten roster-protected players to stock reserve teams. Of the 18 senior players, MLS teams are allowed a maximum of four senior (over the age of 25) international players on their active roster, as well as three youth international players (under the age of 25). In MLS, a player is not considered an international (regardless of eligibility to play for the U.S. National Team) if he is a U.S. citizen, is a resident alien (green card), or is under asylum protection. International players are so defined by the United States Soccer Federation, the sport's overall governing body in America, to accord with U.S. Immigration and Naturalization laws, which prohibit an employer from limiting the number of permanent or temporary residents, refugees, and asylees. — from the Major League Soccer article

I'm not totally clear on what the import player rules for Toronto FC will be. (sorry if this is too off-topic) heqs 01:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFL NFL contest Link

Love the link. I wish we could see this again. I heard several years back someone tried to get a Seahawks BC Lions game going, but because of schedule differences... anyway, I am sure the NFL teams would be stronger in general, but the CFL teams would win now and then, just like NHL players lose (quite often) to teams with very few NHL'ers in international hockey. All the loses for the odd win would be worth it. Imagine how Saskatchewan would go crazy when the Riders defeat the New York Giants or the 49ers Stettlerj 01:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-season games

Whether or not "people care" about them, they are certainly encyclopedic, as their records are published by the CFL. I'm not going to get into a revert-war over it, but I'd strongly suggest leaving the mention in. --Mhking 12:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly the pre-season games are encyclopedic, but they should not be mentioned where they were. Since pre-season games have no effect on league standings it doesn't matter how many times a team plays any other team in the pre-season, only their regular season match ups. Tnikkel 22:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agro Trophy

Trophy is Agro, not Argo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.129.96 (talk • contribs).

Good eyes. I've fixed it. Tnikkel 18:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing line

I don't understand this line, can somebody clarify it?

"Although ice hockey is currently Canada's most popular sport, the CFL is highly popular in Quebec and west of Ontario, and its franchises there enjoy a greater level of support than Ontario teams. "

I get the first part, but is the second part saying that Quebec franchises are more popular than Ontario franchises? If so, that should be made more clear, I think. --Awiseman 20:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that is what it is trying to say but it is debatable. Professional, University, and amateur Canadian football is definitely enjoying a tremendous growth in popularity in Quebec but does that mean the CFL is more popular in Quebec than in Ontario? I doubt it and would need some evidence to prove it. On the other hand, I would agree that Prairie teams do enjoy the greatest support in the CFL. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with comparing Ontario and Quebec is that you can't. The Alouettes sell every seat every game at Percival Molson, something neither the Argonauts nor the Tiger-Cats (nor the Renegades, when they were relevant) can boast. But Percival Molson is a lot smaller than Skydome. But the Als really pack them into Olympic Stadum during the playoffs, too. The sentence should probably be dropped unless somebody thinks of a really good way to find out what's what. Lord Bob 00:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed it, what do you all think? --Awiseman 17:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Canadian Football League

See Category talk:Canadian Football League. heqs 07:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NFL over CFL

Should it be noted that many people consider the NFL superior over the CFL? Killswitch

Superior how? Perhaps 'most believe the NFL has better players, because of the money, exposure, etc. etc.' should be noted, but 'some people prefer the NFL game to the CFL game' is basically stating irrelevant opinion, to me. Lord Bob 19:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Many people consider the Canadian game to be superior to the American. DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The current prose on the differences in talent between the NFL and CFL seems to me to represent a reasonable balance between the divergent opinions that have been alternately expressed in the Wikipedia article. 66.189.39.246 00:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to balance it out a little, it's not perfect, but hopefully the edit warring will stop. heqs 02:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesnt seem balanced to me. The sentence about the 'talent gap' seems very anti-CFL. Doug Flutie says the best receiver he ever played with was in the CFL, Allen Pitts. Ricky Williams dominated the NFL before being a below-average runner in the CFL. Jeff Garcia went from being above average in the CFL to an NFL pro bowler...THREE TIMES. This all despute his CFL-style scrambling and small stature of 5'11"! On the surface, people may say "all the best players play in the NFL", but this is not the case at all. Every single peace of evidence we have would suggest that the best players at each game play in each respective league. I will not remove that sentence, but I would like to see it done.--J3wishVulcan 02:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

...the best players at each game play in each respective league. There's certainly a lot of truth to that, they are two different games, often requiring two different kinds of player (build, skill set, mindset, etc.) but the more easily quantifiable gap in compensation and public glory will always leave certain people convinced that the gap in talent is at least as big. "Politics" also plays a role in determining the kinds of opportunities that some players get down south (as it does in the CFL too, to be sure). I would encourage you to hunt down some references that support what you're saying so we can more easily include it in the article. heqs 15:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halifax?

Someone added the old rumour of the expansion into Halifax to the Recent History section. I've heard this before, on and off, but should a rumour really be included? If so, perhaps in a different section rather than "Recent History"? Perhaps it should have a citation too. --Bdoserror 07:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not rumours - Tom Wright made a lot of noise about expansion before the Renegades were suspended. [1] heqs 18:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical logos

Does anyone know exactly what years these old logos were used? [2] [3] We could add them to the article. (note: copy and paste the links into your browser's address bar) heqs 21:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Soudog's CFL history site, which is very reliable, the original logo was 1958-69 and the more recent was from 1970 to November 20, 2002. DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I found a CBC reference as well. heqs 03:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Content ripped from...

Looks like a good deal of the article was copied from [4] ...? heqs 22:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the opposite is actually true. DoubleBlue (Talk) 22:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To-do list

Some suggestions for improving the article, in no particular order:

  • Briefly describe the ownership structure of the teams, history of, private vs. community ownership, more info about history of commisioners and what they tried to do, the influence of owners David Braley and Bob Wetenhall and/or relative weakness of the commisioner.
  • Summarize the league awards and mention the annual award ceremony during Grey Cup week, broadcast nationally on TSN (also in Quebec...?) mention history of the CFL All-Star game and current All-Star team.
  • More about player contracts, the import ratio, history of, etc. And possibly referenced info about the type of players that succeed in the NFL, be it Canadian or American(?) just an idea (see also "NFL over CFL" discussion above).
  • History should be expanded in all respects, with more historical info in all sections where appropriate. A full history would of course get split into a separate article and only be summarized here.
  • Find a freely-licensed recent image of a player hoisting the Grey Cup, or of the Grey Cup itself, or at least some kind of GC celebration. Secondarily, of Grey Cup week festivities. For this article as well as the Grey Cup article. Also, better photos of game action if possible. I added the best ones I could find from flickr.
  • Merge the "Comparisons with NFL" section into other sections and eliminate it. This is only a suggestion, but IMHO just about all of it could be merged into the history section and the sections on player contracts, popularity and television.
  • Note some of the players who have gone on to positions in government? Such as Norman Kwong, John Sopinka, Jim Silye, J.C. Watts (more I can't remember right now).

[edit] Resources

—heqs 09:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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