Talk:Canada's name

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[edit] Filling to fullfillment the etymology

What does "Stadacona" means? Etymologically at least... Its important to make the etymological meaning of Canada more complete.

[edit] CDN

Does CDN stand for "Canada DominioN"? --Henrygb 15:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello! I believe this is more a home-grown acrostic of CanaDiaN. In standards defined by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), the ISO standard is CAN, but is perhaps easily confused with the actual word can or common abbreviation Can. As well, the ISO standard for the Canadian dollar CAD is formed from the two letter ISO country abbreviation (CA) (also harking of the internet top-level domain TLD, .ca) and initial for the currency (Dollar) used in place of the common symbol ($). As well, the International Monetary Fund uses C$ and is also recommended by the Canadian government in their official style guide, The Canadian Style. Can you dig it?  :) I hope this helps. E Pluribus Anthony 16:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
But that is just your rationalisation. CDN (as in cars in foreign countries) is an international convention - often with strange reasons. --Henrygb 20:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Actually, the Canadian Oxford Dictionary indicates Cdn. as the abbreviation for Canadian. As yet, I haven't found any background material on whether CDN is derived differently – I've only found this online regarding distinguishing signs on vehicles, etc. – but I doubt that it means what you think it does and everything else above is valid. I recall reading somewhere about why CDN, not CAN, appears on cars elsewhere, etc. I could be proved wrong. :) E Pluribus Anthony 20:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
List of international license plate codes states "Canadian Dominion" as do [1] [2]. --Henrygb 01:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm: very interesting – that seems to support your initial inquiry but flouts the dictionary, so CDN and Cdn. might have different roots. The year when CDN seems to have replaced CA (1956) coincides with when usage of dominion started waning. I wonder whether CDN was chosen so that it could clearly be distinguished from Cameroon (CAM) or to otherwise reassert Canada's autonomy after WWII?
Are there any added sources that may support what CDN means, like an official diplomatic registry? The only other thing I could find was a UN site listing the abbreviations, but not what they mean (that I can see). In any event, thanks for the information. E Pluribus Anthony 01:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The abbreviation was in use at least as early as 1914, as CDN was stamped on the identification discs of all Canadian soldiers in the First World War.Michael Dorosh 20:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dominion of Canada

Hey, I put "Dominion of Canada" in the search box intending to get to Canada, but I was redirected to this article. Just curious, is there a particular reason/Wikipedian precedent as for why "Dominion of Canada" redirects here and not Canada? Thanks. Chef Ketone 03:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi there! I'd imagine it's because of the contentious nature of the name/title which, as you can see from the talk page and archives, is arguably official. This article fully details the usage and propriety of Canada's name ... and the parent article is just one more click away. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 14:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello! For our collective information and in summary regarding Canada's name and dominion: I've recently added a reference from a titular book by Alan Rayburn (a prior executive secretary of the Canadian Permanent Committee on Geographical Names), Naming Canada: stories about Canadian place names (which I dredged up from my library recently), that crystallises everything regarding this issue rather succinctly (with emphasis retained). On p. 18, Rayburn found that:

  • ... the title [Dominion of Canada] has not been officially dropped; it has only been suppressed, with federal, national, and central substituted as adjectives, and Canada, nation, and country used to replace the noun.
and (on p. 19):
  • When the Canadian constitution was patriated in 1982, the entire British North America Act was incorporated into it as the Constitution Act, 1867. So the word Dominion continues to be part of the official title of this country (although its legal name is strictly Canada).

I think that's it for me regarding this. Au revoir! E Pluribus Anthony 16:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

On page 17 Rayburn wrote:
  • I did not notice the erosion of the word from our political lexicon until it was officially dropped from the name of the July 1 holiday in October 1982. About that time, I was asked by the United Nations to confirm the official short and long names of our country. I assumed the long title was Dominion of Canada. I was wrong. External Affairs declared that Canada alone was official as both the long and the short name.
Regarding what he writes on pages 18 and 19, you won't find the phrase Dominion of Canada anywhere in the Constitution Act, 1867. It's not there. I suspect that is why Rayburn never explicitly states that Dominion of Canada has any standing. The quote from page 18 above is misleading because it includes bracketed information from elsewhere in the paragraph. In the sentence quoted above he is really only equating Dominion with federal, national and central, and he makes an interesting point. But he never states outright that Dominion of Canada has any standing either as Canada's name or as its title. How could he? External Affairs had already told him to inform the United Nations that it isn't!
Dominion is indeed the word in the constitution for what Canada is, but it is no more a part of Canada's name than Union is part of the United States' name. (Union appears in the U.S. Constitution as its title.) Just as one does not refer to the Union of the United States, one does not refer to the Dominion of Canada, even though Canada is a dominion and the United States is a union.
Jonathan David Makepeace
This has been discussed ad nauseum already on the talk pages/archives. Not only does the above not take into account numerous other authoritative sources cited – including those from the government itself (online) and the Constitution Act, 1871 – that contradict the above point of view and which anyone can verify, but the above reference from Rayburn supports notations of both, particularly:
Dominion continues to be part of the official title of this country...
Read "part". The bracketed statement from p. 18 directly follows from the earlier clause on the prior page (and after that) where "the long title was (assumed) Dominion of Canada" is stated. Rayburn also clearly diffentiates between the country's title(s) and name, legal and official.
In addition, the comparison with the US is not necessarily an apt one because (a) "union" and "united" are arguably redundant; (b) though I'm unsure of its official standing, "Union" is frequently used to refer various aspects of Americana (e.g., State of the Union Address (per its constitution), Union (American Civil War)).
Moreover, no citations have yet been provided to support the above viewpoint. Until they are or until compelled otherwise, the current comprehensive, accurate notation will be restored. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I provided the quote from Rayburn himself explicitly stating that Dominion of Canada is neither an official name or title of the country. His source was the Canadian Department of External Affairs. The Constitution Act, 1867, does not contain the phrase "Dominion of Canada." The Constitution, External Affairs, what more authoritative sources do you want? Jonathan David Makepeace
This interpretation is incomplete and challenged, since Rayburn later goes on to indicate that the title (much to his surprise) has been suppressed, etc. As above, the phrase is included in the Constitution Act, 1871. Moreover, again, at least two online sources from the federal government explicitly contradict your assessment, one stating "the title is Dominion of Canada." In light of this authoritative sourcing, I've nothing more to add. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but while Canada may have BEEN a Dominion up until 1982, and is even described as such in various documents, the NAME is the subject of the debate, and the NAME has NEVER been "The Dominion of Canada" It's no different that describing Haiti as "the island of Haiti"...that's a description, not its name. Mattwilkins 07:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure what the opinion above is meant to demonstrate ... if only intransigence. Sorry: per the Constitution and various government sources, "Dominion" remains the official title of the country. As the article also indicates, the legal name of the country is strictly Canada. And Dominion of Canada, an official though disused appellation, is no different in form or authority than (correctly) describing Haiti as the Republic of Haiti, which is that country's long-form political name. And, BTW, Haiti is on the island of Hispaniola. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 10:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Every map I have ever seen has labled Canada as The Dominion of Canada. I was always under the impression that that was its full name. But, just as we don't call "Billy Bob Smith Jr.", "Billy Bob Smith Junior", but rather refer to him as "Bill", "Billy", "mr. Smith", and on the rare occasion "Sir", we refer to The Dominion of Canada, as it is our friend, not as "The Dominion in Canada", we call it "Canada". However, as this is an Encyclopedia, meant for full names(I certaintly would not want an encyclopedia to be on first name basis with me), it would be best to use "The Dominion of Canada. Samsomite

Can you cite a few of these maps? —Michael Z. 2006-07-13 05:08 Z
Maybe it's time to get a new map. I bet your "Dominion of Canada" maps don't show Nunavut. I wonder if they show Newfoundland as being part of Confederation, or separate? Ground Zero | t 11:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Style and Title" means long form name

This is a very old arguement. I support the position that the long form name of the country formed on July 1, 1867, was and is today the Dominion of Canada. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is ruled by consensus. The overwhelming majority (i.e., the consensus) of people here hold the view that the only name of the country founded on July 1, 1867, is simply just Canada. I support the position that this "constitutional literalist" interpretation of letter of the constitution in fact violates the spirit of constitution that the Fathers of Confederation intended (i.e., the Fathers of Confederation intent was to designate that the long form name of the country as the Dominion of Canada).

If one carefully inspects all of the relavent amendments to the British North America Act for the first 50 years of this country's existance (i.e., 1867-1917) one will note the explicit inclusion of the long form full name of the Dominion of Canada (and correspondingly use of Canada as a short form name) in every salient document.

The term Style and Title (or just Style, or Title alone) does in fact mean "the long form name". This is borne out when one studies the rules of the Order of Precedence (literally meaning "who proceeds first").

The Constitution of the Dominion of Canada was explicitly modeled on the Constitutions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (1707-1800), the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1801-1921), and amended via the model of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (since 1921). To this end if one uses the doctrine of Comparative Common Law one may note the following important Constitutional Clauses,


Upon insection of The Treaty (or Act) of Union 1707

Article I. That the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall, upon the first day of May next ensuing date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain, and that the ensigns armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint, and the crosses of St. Andrew and St. George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit, and be used in all flags, banners and ensigns, both at sea and land.

Article II. That the succession to the monarchy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and the dominions thereunto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, ...

Article III. That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be represented by one and the same Parliament, to be styled the Parliament of Great Britain.


Therefore argument proceeds as follows, if the long form name of Great Britain in 1707 was taken to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain, then similarly the long form name of Canada in 1867 was taken to be the Dominion of Canada.

70.30.193.143 19:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian Dept. of External Affairs has explicitly stated that Canada has no long form of its name. Jonathan David Makepeace 22:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Makepeace, the Canadian Dept. of External Affairs could say "the sky is blue", and I would double-check it. There is no legal document that the Canadian Dept. of External Affairs has produced to prove their assertion.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Welcome back, Don. You are entitled to your opinion about the Department of Foreign Affairs, as it is now called, but I will remind you that Wikipedia works by consensus, and not on the opinions of individual contributors. I encourage you not to repeat the behaviour that led to your temporary ban. So far, we have only elaborately constructed arguments like the one provided by User:70 above, and common usage over several decades, to support your contention about the long form of the name. We do not have an explicit statement in the BNA Act itself, or in another document to support it. We also have common usage of "Canada" alone over the past 50-60 years to support the contrary argument. Ground Zero | t 16:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Ground Zero. It is nice to hear from you indeed. As per the content of Article Pages, I shall not engage in edit wars. They are fruitless, and it ends up in me being banned. As per Talk Pages, I shall express my opinions as I see fit, within the Wikipedia guidelines. If you review my above words they are well within the guidelines of "acceptable conduct".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ArmchairVexillologistDon

PS, could you please UNLOCK my UserPage, and my User-TalkPage. They are still blocked as the person who locked them has left Wikipedia. I would be most grateful if you, or someone else with Administrator Powers could do me the courtesy.

Best wishes, ArmchairVexillologistDon 20:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can read into the above, you weren't being told to be quiet, only to respect WP:CONSENSUS. If you can do that and accept that your input is only that—input to a larger machine of decision—then what you have to say and your research skills are going to be an asset to the project. Welcome back! — Saxifrage ✎ 17:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Howdy Saxifrage :) Thank you for the kind and friendly "Welcome Back". I appreciate it alot indeed. Thanks as well for the compliment on my research skills. I can be a "wee-bit of a Ferret" in that department eh. Take care, and best wishes, and see you around ole Wikipedia eh  :)

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, no complaint about your comments above on the talk page -- no problem there, and I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression. I'll check to see if your pages are still locked. I somehow missed this request earlier. Regards, Ground Zero | t 23:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move?

I suggest that this be moved to Name of Canada for consistency and formality. see Names of Japan, Names of Korea, Names of China, Etymology of India for similar articles. --Jiang 07:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

While this makes sense on the surface since it seems to be a tidy way of listing all country naming articles, in practice it doesn't work. Note that all the examples with "Names of..." are plural. Somehow it just doesn't sound right in the singular form. "Canada's name" just plain sounds better than "Name of Canada."Sunray 07:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with S.: while I applaud attempts at consistency, the proposed title is awkward given the overwhelming prevalence of a single term for the country – Canada (in whole or in part). Etymology of Canada or even Names for Canada might be better alternatives, but I don't see the need for the move just yet and (to my knowledge) given no standard stating otherwise. And note that there's a neat-and-tidy category – [[Category:Country name etymology]] – for these articles. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 07:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I support Etymology of Canada or even Names for Canada over my original proposal. but to emphasize the single term for the country, we should use parenthesis such as in Canada (name) or Canada (etymology). "Canada's name" sounds like some book or TV show... --Jiang 00:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with "Etymology of Canada". This article covers more than just the derivation of Canada -- it covers other names that were proposed, and the issue of what was to come before the name -- Dominion, Kingdom, etc. "Etymology would be just plain incorrect as the name of this article. I don't obejct to the other proposals. Ground Zero | t 02:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

One major difference between this and the other articles is that most of this article is Debating the name of canada whether Dominion of canada or just Canada is the correct name, with the others just added in as a bit of other info.

[edit] Those other names could have been problems

  • Ursalia? The Royal Ursalian Mounted Police (RUMP)? HMUS Ottawa - Her Majesty's Ursalian Ship Ottawa?
  • Mesopelagia? Air Mesopelagia? PetroMes? Mesopelagian Broadcasting Company (MBC, close to NBC)?
  • Albion? The Albionian Broadcasting Corporation, right next door to the American Broadcasting Company? The Royal Albionian Mountain Police?

Thank the Fathers of Confederation for choosing Canada! GBC 01:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree: the only other one I think would've been passable, and actually isn't too bad, is Laurentia. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Better Albionian than Elbonian... Tubezone 23:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree.

-G

I read in horrible canadian histories by claire mackay that alberta (after queen victorias husband) and transylvannia were also candidates. is this true or is she just making things up? Nicholas.tan 05:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confederation of Canada/Canadian Confederation?

The title Dominion has been dropped by Canada due to its relation with monarchy and aggravating Quebec nationalists. I wonder if anyone has recognized Canada as officially the "Confederation of Canada" or as I have heard the title "Canadian Confederation" used before, similar to Russian Federation. Could this be the unrecognized official name of Canada?

As above and herein, the legal title "Dominion" has not been dropped as it remains in Canada's constitution; similarly, "Dominion of Canada" remains an official title (see refs in the article) but it is disused and has been suppressed.
Please see the article Canadian Confederation for a treatment of the term "confederation" in this unique context. Regardless, either of those terms are not official names. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
For another example at surpressed legal stuff, look at all the rediculous un-repealed laws in the United Kingdom. The one making it legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow in York for example Stormscape 17:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Saint-Lawrence Iroquoian

The reference to a Heritage Canada Web brochure is not a valid source for the origin of the word Canada. A better source would have been a run-of-the-mill dictionary of Indians names, such as Bernard Assiniwi’s Lexique des noms indiens du Canada, or even Hurtig’s Canadian Enclyclopedia, but even such sources are not much better.

A distinction is clearly made in the academic literature between the inhabitants of the St-Lawrence Valley, the “Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians,” and the Iroquois and Huron living near Lake Ontario. In the Smithsonian’s “Handbook of the North American Indians” – which has perhaps 10 or 15 thousand pages – there is a revealing map (volume 15, page ix) of Indian tribes before the Europeans arrived in numbers: the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians occupy the whole Saint-Lawrence Valley, from Cornwall to the Ïle aux Coudres (other maps suggest that the Iroquoians were present as far East as Gaspé, but this is disputed). The Smithsonian map is also found, I think, in Duane Champagne’s The Native American Almanac of 1994. Jacques Cartier thus met “Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians” (sometimes called “Iroquians” or “Laurentians” when speaking of their language). In 1534, he met some who were traveling in the Gaspé région (but who lived up stream). In 1535-36, Cartier visited their villages. As for the more accessible books on Native Americans, such as O. P. Dickason’s Canada’s First Nations, the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians are usually mentioned briefly (page 50).

The word “Iroquois” is normally reserved for the five (later six) nations of the Iroquois Confederacy which, in 1535, were not in contact with any Europeans. English-language and French-language specialists insist on distinguishing Iroquois and Iroquoian. Examples : Trigger and Pendergast, page 357, referenced in article “Canada,” and Richard Dominique and Jean-Guy Deschênes’ Cultures et société autochtones au Québec (pages 33). A bit like “Germanic languages” and “German”: only one refers to English. The same Iroquois / Iroquoian distinction is found in French and German (Iroquois / Iroquoien) (Irokese / Irokesisch).

The Iroquois/Iroquoian/Huron confusion stems mostly from centuries of ignorance. For example, Henry Biggar included in his The Voyages of Jacques Cartier, published in 1924, Sir Daniel Wilson’s text “The Huron-Iroquois of Canada” which he had written in 1884. It is a speculative and totally discredited article. Later, Hurtig invited the “Former Dominion Archivist” and long-retired W. Kaye Lamb to write the article about “Canada” for his Canadian Encyclopaedia of 1985.

The word “Huron” is also excluded. In 1535 they lived in the area north of Lake Ontario. Bruce Trigger, in his The Children of Aataentsic. A history of the Huron people to 1660 (Montreal: McGill-Queen’s Press, 1976, pp. 224-228), makes the Huron/Iroquoian distinction and suggests that the Saint Lawrence Iroquoians were probably killed by the Hurons or the Mohawks in the late 16th century in an attempt to control the trade routes with Europeans. The Saint-Lawrence Valley was thus becoming a very dangerous area and the Iroquoians seemingly paid the price. It would also appear that some of the Saint Lawrence Iroquoian survivors were probably taken in by the Hurons, the Mohawks and the Algonquins, by force or by mutual agreement. By 1603, Algonquins and Mohawks hunted in the Saint-Lawrence Valley and conducted raids, but neither had any permanent settlements.

Next, why use imagined phonetics: “kanata” or “kaná:ta”? This practice seems to have been encouraged by Heritage Canada’s web site (referenced) and Lamb’s article in Hurtig’s Enclyclopedia (un-referenced). The only reasonably reliable source about language(s) spoken in Stadacona and Hochelaga is the writings of Jacques Cartier (or perhaps those of his ghost writer). He wrote, in his Journal of the 1535-1536 voyage which was published in 1545: “Ilz appellent une ville: Canada”. The word Canada was also on the front cover. The Harleian Mappemonde of 1536 shows “Canada” (village, region and river). Any other graphical transcription of “Canada” is pure imagination, since no other sources exist. The journal of his earlier 1534 voyage, which was published several years later in Italian, gives no additional clues. His “vocabulary” tops out at 200 odd words.

Of course, the Mohawk and Oneida dialects of Iroquois have a similar word meaning “village” or “settlement” that it written “kanata” since the 19th or 20th century when latin script was first used to transcribe them. But whether or not one believes every detail of the linguistic observations of Jacques Cartier (his list may include words from two or three dialects, or languages, used by the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians), his list of Iroquoian vocabuary is quite distinct from modern-day Mohawk (there are mohawk dictionaries for those who like word puzzles). Furthermore, Mohawk may have evolved considerably since the 16th century, especially if Iroquoian refugees were accepted into their villages. A good reference on this matter is Marianne Mithon who clearly identifies separate “Laurentian” and “Mohawk” languages (Mithon, “Iroquoian”, in “The Languages of Native America”, Austin: Univeristy of Texas, 1979, pp. 133-212). Mithon, a linguist, is not however an historian.

There is thus no apparent reason for using 19th or 20th century phonetic transcription of Mohawk when writing 16th century Saint-Lawrence Iroquoian (or “Laurentian”). This error seemingly stems of the Iroquoian/Iroquois confusion (see above). One can however legitimately underline, when discussing the origins of the word Canada, that other related languages have a similar word meaning village (Mohawk: “kanata”; Huron: “andata”). But neither is a phonetic transcription of Canada as written by Jacques Cartier. Sorry. If the navigator (or his educated ghost writer) wrote “d”, he probably meant the sound “d”. If, however, French language texts of the 16th century all used “d” when today we use or pronouce “t” in their place, then it’s a new ball game. Anyone want to try proving that?

The only question remaining is whether the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians spoke several dialects or separate languages; this linguistic diversity stems from comparative analysis of the Cartier vocabulary (linguistic comparaisons with the other languages of the Iroquoian language group) and from the observation that a single native American language was never used in 15th century woodland America over such a large area, stretching hundreds of kilometers. Its probable that they spoke at least two or more dialects or languages. But we will never know.

Thus the expression “Saint-Lawrence Iroquoian,” in the sigular, is included in the new text and “kanata” is excluded. Finally, the article on the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoian language is titled “Laurentian language”. It might need changing, but the title follows the lead of the wiki articles on linguistics and most texts on Native American languages.

Of course, no original research is involved here. It's all copied from basic academic texts about the Iroquoian. However, if someone wants to use "kanata" or "huron-iroquois", they should find a reputable source (i.e. academic research) and not "topical" information from government web-sites, unsigned, that is not worthy as a reference for a Wiki. Its fun information, good for the kids, sometimes lively, but not serious. If it were serious, the civil servant who wrote it would have signed it or published it somewhere (like the statisticians of StatCanada who sign all their work).

Only one man wrote anything about the language of the Saint-Lawrence Iroquoian. This last sentence is not original research: I stole it from Mithon who wrote: "All data from Laurentian are contained in two word lists recorded during the sixteenth century." (Mithon, page 140). Although she is not an historian, as a linguist specializing in Iroquoian languages, her opinion in this matter is probably definitive.

Finally, I also cut a short reference to the Mohawk name of the Saint-Lawrence River. Interesting, but not relevant here since the Mohawks were not in contact with Europeans in 1535. In any case, the full name is to be found in the article on the Saint Lawrence River. Joseph B 03:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Lawrence Iroquoians in the news!

St. Lawrence Iroquoians are in the news. On Friday, August 18th 2006, the Premier of Québec issued a new release about a major discovery at Cap-Rouge: the Cartier-Roberval settlement of 1541-1543 was unearthed by archeologists. And they found bit of "Iroquoian" pottery, which of course helps to date the site (carbon-14 helped too). And the French-language section of CBC broadcast on 28 septembre 2003 a detailed report about the St. Lawrence Iroquoians and an archeological site in Saint-Anicet, Quebec. And Parks Canada's site about the Cartier-Brébeuf National Historic Site of Canada in Quebec City presents a rather detailed overview of the "St-Lawrence Iroquoians". The English-Language version is badly translated ("St. Lawrence Iroquois"), but it should be remarked that (1) the words "Huron" and "Mohawk" were not used and that (2) the French-Language version uses the correct name of "Iroquoiens du Saint-Laurent".

So, recent stuff written by the Office of the Premier of Quebec, CBC-TV and Parks Canada seem to have a bit more weight than Canadian Heritage's unsigned blurb about a so-called "Huron-Iroquois" language that never existed. If they had written "an Iroquoian" language, it would have been technically correct since the Iroquoian language family includes everone: Huron, Mohawk, Oneida and Laurentians (or "St. Lawrence Iroquoians"). But they didn't, and it isn't.

Anyway, Trigger's article in the 15-volume "Handbook of North American Indians" trumps government PR and TV-journalism. Joseph B 11:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Georges Sioui of the Wendat Wendake village, near Quebec City, recognized, in his published M.A. thesis "For an Amerindian Autohistory" (Montreal: McGill-Queen's, 1992, English translation) that the "St. Lawrence Iroquoian" label is indeed correct. He goes on to say that the St. Lawrence Iroquoian refugees that migrated to Huronia in the 16th century had such an impact on the Wendats that, when they migrated from Huronia to the Quebec City area 100 years later (because of wars), they had become "Wendat-Iroquoians". Interesting, but only relevant when discussing the 17th century. Joseph B 10:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
A final note about the use of Canada's name in published maps and such: the 1547 date is interesting -- since the Harleian mappemonde appears to have been published in 1547 -- but it came two years after Cartier "Récit". Thus, I suggested "By 1545, European books and maps began referring to this region as Canada." Joseph B 10:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silly revert war

Sorry for butting in here, but the repeated reverting of Joseph B's edits is rather silly. Joseph B has done good work researching the literature on Canada's name using scholarly sources and documenting them here, yet it seems that some editors feel a Heritage Canada web site trumps all modern scholarship. We delight when we find errors in Britannica, yet an unsourced government web site seemingly directed at children is sacrosanct????!!!! To recapitulate Joseph B's evidence from reliable sources:

  1. "Canada" was first used by Jacques Cartier;
  2. He got the word from people living along the Saint Lawrence;
  3. "kanata/canada" is not a Huron word, it is “andata”, hence the Heritage Canada web site is wrong;
  4. According to Bruce Trigger, McGill anthropologist and perhaps foremost authority on the Hurons, they did not live in the Saint Lawrence valley in the 16th Century;
  5. Scholarly sources indicate that the Saint Lawrence valley was inhabited by a different people, now called the "Laurentians" or “Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians” in the 16th Century.
  6. For similar reasons, it can't be a Mohawk word, as Trigger and Marianne Mithun have established they did not live along the Saint Lawrence in the 16th century and they spoke a different language.

We might want to discuss the "Huron-Iroquois" idea in the Name origin section, but clearly indicate thyat current scholarship considers it wrong. Luigizanasi 15:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no issue with the scholarly nature of James B's sources per se; but to argue, discount, and then remove official sources which are just as valid (one of which (Rayburn) is the prior chair of the standing committee on geographical name) is the height of hubris. That is silly. If editors cannot integrate other viewpoints/content while retaining cited information, and I might be guilty of that in recent editing (mea culpa), don't. 65.95.236.235 16:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If you look up Rayburn's work (the relevant pages are available on Google books), you will note he does not use the word "Huron" or "Iroquois" from page 13 to 15 where Canada's name is discussed: he uses "Saint Lawrence Iroquoian", just like Joseph B. On Canada meaning land bit, Rayburn is just quoting someone else on this (André Thevet) and offers no opinion. Incidentally, it seems Rayburn is wrong about Cartier saying the Saint Lawrence Iroquoians used "kanata" (p.13). Quoting Cartier from the Gutenberg edition (page 48), "Ilz (sic) appellent une ville Canada", not "kanata" Luigizanasi 20:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
My original position stands. If R. is incorrect, and I'm willing to admit that, please provide authoritative documentation indicating that or supporting said changes: if recent revelations are in fact valid, I'm sure there is a body of literature that will clearly support and corroborate this position? I see editor interpretations based on original source matter, but no reputable sourced dissents with information contained therein. That is, I don't necessarily see the corroboration, as of yet. Just because content is apparently contradictory and disagreeable ("wrong") to a clutch of editors, who perhaps are succumbing to groupthink, that is no reason to discard what is or might be equally valid information. I see little here that obviates WP:V or WP:NPOV. I appreciate that an editor has researched the situation but integrate that content with existing content, which wasn't done ... and now recent 'reverts' are being tagged as 'vandalism' -- that's adroit! I am not as willing to dismiss government sources indicating this or that just yet; besides, much of the information contained therein is apparently derived from the National Archives ... and I know whose interpretation I will defer to regarding the origin of said names. 65.95.236.235 22:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Better references could of course be integrated into the article, but wholy discredited works needs to be dropped. Discussion here and elsewhere (article:Canada) covers this material. Why not discuss and confront the relative merit of sources here. An "info-sheet" from Canadian Heritage is not Wiki-worthy (when multivolume specialist encyclopedias are available, not to mention the works of linguists and others). Vandalism is, in part, reverting without discussion and explaination. Thus the considered use of the word "vandalism". Joseph B 12:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the only reference to "National Archives" comes from a 79 year old retired "Dominion archivist", librarian by profession, who wrote the "Canadian Enclyclopedia" article "Canada". His personal qualifications are obviously in doubt, since Native American specialists consider his theory to be totally without merit and completely at odds with archeological and linguistic evidence unearthed since 1950. In any case, would a reference from a deputy director of the Canadian Museum of Civilisation, written by someone educated in the later half of the 20th century, help? See James F. Pendergast, The Confusing Identities Attributed to Stadacona and Hochelaga, Journal of Canadian Studies, volume 32, number 4, Winter 1998, pages 149 to 167. I respectfully suggest that his arguments be adressed before reverting to a discretited version of the origin of the word "Canada" and use of "kanata". Primary sources (Jacques Cartier) and modern linguists (Mithun and Lounsbury) exclude this theory. The word was published as "canada" in 1545. Joseph B 12:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Please: screaming 'vandalism' is neither considered nor appropriate. Pot, meet kettle. You still persist in removing information that YOU and pliant editors feel is unworthy and have discredited (i.e., not reliably); moreover, 'obviously' etc. are clear weasel words that cast skepticism on the contributor. I respectfully suggest that you integrate your contributions with the information already in the article (and -- yes -- please provide better references), not to remove what you disagree with as you have been doing. Perhaps you should even write to Canadian Heritage with your information/revelations. Until you do, I will continue to restore cited, verifiable information ... which is all that Wp requires 142.150.134.50 15:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
In absence of any effort to discuss -- and in the absence of any attempt to propose considered arguments --, article reverted to previous (well documented) version. Joseph B 16:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In absence of reliable discreditation and your continued removal of cited information, the article has been reverted to the previous (and well documented) version, and this will continue until you either integrate said content with existing content or overcome your 'sophistry' and provide sources for the reliable discreditation -- and that doesn't mean by YOU or other effectively anonymous Wikipedians -- of the topics at hand. 142.150.134.52 20:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
When several sources exist (and all of them can be cited), one must choose. With historians, linguists and specialist encyclopedias on one side, and a government blurb on the other, the choice is obvious. If all reliable sources are to be considered sophistry, then abstain. At least, read the wiki policy on reliable sources. Joseph B 17:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
When several sources exist, YOU must not choose: read WP:NPOV and WP:V (WP:CITE). Integrate your revelations with others or refrain from editing. Given that you have not yet provided reputable discreditation of cited matter -- and until you do -- I will continuously restore this information. And I do not consider scholarly sources sophistry per se: I consider your subjective and (possibly erroneous) promulgation of this information above all else to be. 65.92.172.20 17:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When a source is dead wrong

When one of the many "sources" is simple wrong, a choice is necessary. No need to integrate "The Borg are living beings." and "The Borg are fictional characters". One is wrong (guess which).

In the case of this article, the Hurons did not live in the St. Lawrence River valley in the early 16th century. Georges Sioui, from the Huron village near Quebec City, has emphatically stated as much in his "For an Amerindian autohistory: an essay on the foundations of a social ethic", published in 1992. No source states otherwise (and user 65.92.172.20 / 142.150.134.52 has furnished no counter-argument or credible source).

As for the Mohawks, they lived in the Mohawk River valley (hence their name) in the 16th Century (have a look at the "Handbook of North American Indians", especially volume 15 and 17, which was edited by the Smithsonian Institution). The "Smithsonian", as it is called, is none other than the U.S. federal museum of natural history. And why not check out the writings of Marianne Mithun who, at least, speaks Mohawk and is the most reputable scholar on Iroquoian languages (but then again, as I have previously mentioned, she is not an historian).

Finally, on could go so far, as Mithun suggests, and insist that the inhabitants of Stadacona, Hochelaga and the other villages near Quebec City spoke several languages, in which case, one could surmise that the word "canada" comes from one of the languages spoken by these people(s). One could even underline (preferably elsewhere) that two other Iroquoian languages have a similar word for "village": Oneida and Mohawk (generally written "kanata" since the 19th Century). Thus, any reference to the Mohawk word for "big river", that starts with the same letters, is superfluous. Joseph B 21:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The key here is in your opinion, which means little. In demonstration, even your first statement demonstrates fallacious argumentation and your unwillingness or inability to integrate disparate points of view. Actually: "The Borg are fictional cyborgs" ... and as we all know, "cyborg" is a portmanteau of cybernetic organism -- i.e., living.
Regarding your analysis, I defer to my prior comments: please provide reputable discrediation of facts not in agreement with yours ... which you have yet to through your gibbering. Otherwise, I've nothing else to add. 216.13.88.86 00:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor note

I found this comment buried in the article: 'modern Spanish word for "here" is "aqui". "Acá" is an archaic form. No es verdad... aqui and acá are just two different ways of saying the same thing. The thing about the Spaniards writing acá nada is just BS anyway, it wouldn't be written that way, either there'd be a comma in there, or it'd be written Aqui (or allí) no hay nada. It's pretty difficult to believe they would have written that, there was and is a big honkin' land mass there, last time I checked. Tubezone 03:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cañada

Not sure if anyone has researched this or not, but another possible origin I found is the Spanish word Cañada which means glen. Although there is an ñ instead of a plain n, it could have undergone some form of change over time due to the increasing Anglophone population.Gorovich 05:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

After looking a bit more, it seems there are a few major glens and at least one place named Glen in Canada, which could also give this theory some weight. This could be similar to the Viking tale of Vinland which was also named after something the explorers first found, vines. Perhaps the Spanish explorers found glens and decided to name it Cañada. Gorovich 05:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is original research and has no bearing on the name for Canada. It is a coincidence. The Spanish had almost nothing or nothing to do with the exploration of the lands that became Canada, and I am certain you would not be able to find an authentic Spanish map or document with any evidence pointing to this theory. Hu 06:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that's what the dictionary says, but it's not that common, usually a glen would be arroyo or valle, although the Guia Roji lists 12 places in Mexico whose names start with cañada (vs. 20 that begin with arroyo and 30 that begin with valle) Also, the ñ has a y sound after it, it's pronounced "canyatha", and the spelling probably would've been corrupted in translation. Also, the Spaniards probably would've called the place pantana (for the muskeg swamps), or more likely given it a religious name, eg: the first place they landed in Mexico, they named Vera Cruz (True Cross). Any way , it sounds pretty implausible. Tubezone 06:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was just an idea. Never said it was the word of God or anything. Adiós. Gorovich 15:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought a bit more about this, and if you look at Spanish naming habits, they usually use either (1) a description (eg: Florida, meaning flowery) (2) a religious name (eg: Santo Domingo, San Antonio, etc), (3) co-opt a native name (eg: México, Texas) or (4) copy a name from Spain (eg: Guadalajara). cañada could mean reedy, as in caña, cane or reed. Still, I think the native american provenance is better supported by what's known, although the Portuguese and Spaniards as I recall, did fish off the Canadian coast, even as far back as the 16th century. Tubezone 04:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name Origin

There's currently a weasel-words tag on the Name origin section of this article. No doubt this is due to the opening sentence: "The name Canada is believed to have originated around 1535 from a Wendat (Huron-Iroquoian) word, kanata..." Do we really need to say "believed"? Almost every modern reference accepts that Canada came from kanata or a similar First Nations word. Most of the argument on this subject seems to be around which word from which First Nations language (see above). I think the references support changing this to a definitive statement, eliminating the "is believed to have from the above. I realize that NPOV requires us to include alternative theories, but we are permitted to give greater weight and prominence to the most commonly accepted version. -Eron 13:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the section to state that Canada came from kanata as this reflects the most broadly accepted view. Alternative theories can still be mentioned of course, though I would like to clean the aca nada paragraph up a bit once I can check a couple more references. -Eron 03:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I put the reference to "canada" back. Check the discussion above as well as Jacques Cartier's book from 1545. He clearly writes that the inhabitants of Stadacona used the word "canada" for "village". A first hand account published only a few years after his visit. The spelling "kanata" comes from two related languages of the Iroquoian Language Family group, namely Mohawk and Oneida, as they were first writen with latin script in the 18th century. As for the origins of the word Canada, there is no doubt. Of course, how do we name the people of Stadacona? Academic literature suggests St. Lawrence Iroquoians; the language is often called Laurentian language. Joseph B 14:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't change the word in the intro to 'kanata'; it has been that way for some time. And I did review Cartier's book and the discussion, thank you. My concern was to remove the weasel words tag by making a clear statement that Canada originated from a First Nations word, in line with the accepted historical interpretation. As to which language, that isn't something I am qualified to comment on, although I wonder how we can debate between 'kanata' and 'canada' when discussing words from languages that did not have written forms. - Eron Talk 15:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The weasel words should indeed be removed, since Jacques Cartier's account is quite clear. As for the spelling of the word, we have only Jacques Cartier's account ... and he (or his ghost-writer) wrote "canada". No other primary source exists about the language of the St. Lawrence Iroquoians and since the French alphabet it pretty much unchanged since 1535, there is no reason to second-guess Cartier. In any case, we would need an expert on 16th century French pronunciation. As for the word "kanata", which is often used, it stems from 18th century transcriptions of the Mohawk and closely related Oneida languages. Nowadays, the Mohawk correct spelling is "kaná:ta", with two accents. Cheers! Joseph B 02:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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