Talk:Camp (style)

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[edit] Examples of camp

The whole section needs to be written but I can't be bothered to do it.

How the hell could Metallica be considered "campy?" Many observers consider Metallica to be the best, most genuine example of thrash metal of all time. Metallica's style has never been exaggerated, ironic, over-the-top, or silly in my opinion. God help the person who listed Stryper next to Metallica in this section of the article.

[edit] Words

What does "problematisation" mean? This word (and its presumed variant with a "z") does not seem to appear in dictionaries. Similarly, "historicity" herein seems to mean something different than the dictionary would indicate. A link to a Wiktionary entry or something would be appreciated. Or would doing so dumb down the text? ~ Vivacissamamente

[edit] Modern use of Camp

I would say that today we use Camp in a similar way to this old definition of Swish, above. "His voice and walk are naturally quite camp, but when he is around his parents or similar people, he seems more self-aware, and is more straight-acting."

There is an aggressive cross-dressing style of camp. Eg. "He puts his hand on his hip and delicately puts a 6 inch cigarette to his lips. He stands tall and looks down at you with a feigned contempt". An example of this sort of camp is how Tim Curry played Dr Franknfurter in "The Rocky Horror Picture Show".

When a man acts in this extreme-camp fashion, it is not purely that he is acting in a typically feminine way. In fact, it tends to stand out as unnatural even when a woman acts in this way, and then she is being camp also. An example would be how Madeline Kahn played Lili Von Schtupp in "Blazing Saddles".

This example leads to a less gender-bent camp to the campness of playing straight in a colourful or silly situation.For example Eg. Adam West played Batman in "Batman - The Movie" and in the Television Series. Here he played a stiff, adult, master detective, in spite of wearing a ridiculous outfit, solving ludicrous riddles, being introduced by a childish cartoon representation of himself with a peculiar "na-na-na-na-Batman" song.

Other examples of this kind of camp can be found in "A Very Brady Sequel", "What's up Doc" and "Zoolander" etc.

Richard Lynton 2004.

[edit] What is going on?

User:Scuiqui fox, the article first defined camp as a general phenomena. Your additional definitions were not the first to say that "camp is not only queer". Additionally you changed all instances of "gay" to "homosexual" for no reason. Richard Lynton (User:220.253.36.130), your comments were made in the middle of comments posted by me. What is going on? Vision problems? Computer trouble? Pages not refreshing? Hyacinth

[edit] Citations

Please be careful to preserve citations. Thanks and happy edits. Hyacinth 22:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

The article was listed for Wikipedia:Cleanup with no explination on this talk page so I removed the template. Hyacinth 22:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What is missing...

Dearest,

I think the one thing avoided in this article of Camp was the logic behind the artifice. Jean Cocteau 's definition of Campy was "The lie that tells the truth.

As Susan Songtag admitted herself in the essay . She was an outsider to Camp and relpying too much on an outsider hurt your article as well as destroyed the objective. Susan Songtag did a wonderful job don't get me wrong but she was only attracted to style Camp not part of the Camp mentality. Atleast by her opinion, I think she is more campy then she is willing to let us know.

The biggest aspect of Camp that you skipped right over was it is actually a critical analysis and at the same time a big joke. Camp takes “something” (normally a social norm, object, phrase, or stlye) does a very acute analysis of what the “something” is. Then takes then “something” and becomes it. That is where to joke or humor comes in. For example when Breadesley's ink drawings were outragiously campy because they where blatant, vulgar, and just not the traditional way! Yet he was critical analyzing the traditions of his time by turning his nose up at them thus making him vulgar. Or when a homosexual is “flamer”, because the homosexual is intentionally toying with what it means to be “gay” in the eyes everyone else. THAT my friend is Camp.

Yes it's a joke but it's is also a very serious analysis done by people who are willing to make a joke out of themselves just to prove a point.

The second thing you missed was that to be Camp meant to be an illusion. Camp is to look like one thing but in reality to be another thing. Example Art Nouvea, the “lamp” looks like a vine and flowers but it's actually a "lamp". Camp is a big secret to the person being campy. Why do you think it is always associated with homosexuals? Because anyone who is camp has a dark secret they are intentionally making fun of or manipluating. This is way is got the homosexual tag it has but most modern "Goths" are campy as well.

It's about being pretenious and contentious; It is a heterdox bouleversement all wrapped up in a tongue and cheek pose, which elicits shock and is meant to be offensive.

You make it sound so clean and proper. That doesn’t sound very camp.

Please: Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.
Secondly, this is an article about camp, not camp itself. Hyacinth 21:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Subject

Dear,

If the article is about Camp then isn't about Camp itself?

You're using a self reference problem that doesn't really work because it doesn't explain anything.

If you’re going to identify something the first thing you should do is define it. If the article is about Camp, you need to define what “Camp” is and what is not “Camp”. This article relies completely on Susan's defining Camp behavior not Camp, which is what the article is about correct? I found it unless in this sense because, if I don't know what Camp is then how does that help me? Telling what Camp behavior is, doesn't explain Camp any more then tell me an apple is red. There is so much more to the apple other then it is red so telling me an apple is red doesn't tell what an apple is.

Does that clarify things? I am not trying to be disgruntled but I find it awkward that the whole never tells anyone what Camp is but the article is about Camp. Encyclopedias are to help educate not to confuse me more. Does this explain what I feel the article is missing, well enough?

It might help if you use a Jean Cocteau reference or a Phillip Core reference. I mean I know what Camp is but the article is completely misidentifying and misleading. I am sorry.

Sincerely

Vesta

I concur. I am interested in a working definition of Camp, not a long list of things that are Camp. How are we to define wether or not something is or is not Camp without a definition? 72.60.21.19 07:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig

I don't think that this usage of the word has any claim to "primary topic" disambiguation. Call me ignorant, but when I think of the word 'camp', I think of camping, an encampment, or a concentration camp. --Smack (talk)

[edit] Elvis Presley

Can Elvis Presley himself be considered and example of Camp and Kitsch? I'm waiting for further approval before posting it, but as far as i'm concerned, he fits in all pre-requisites for being considered kitsch and camp.

No, you do not understand the distinction. Elvis Presley's style and the cult of flamboyant objects surrounded with it are kitsch, and the flamboyance of Elvis impersonators may be camp; but Elvis himself is completely in earnest - if at times a little too in earnest.
What he is, a term often crushed beneath the wheels of camp, is arch, sometimes called hammy, but inaccurately. Victor Mature is arch. Elvis Presley is arch. Randolph Scott is wooden. Alan Ladd is hammy. Keanu Reeves is louche. But Flash Gordon is camp.
Do you see?
Nuttyskin 04:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm...

Ja Rule is camp? -- eo 21:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Placebo is camp? -- 72.60.21.19 07:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sontag's list

Once upon a time the article said this:

Now the article says this:

  • In her famous 1964 essay "Notes on 'Camp' ", Sontag emphasised artifice, frivolity, naïve middle-class pretentiousness and shocking excess as key elements of camp. Most of the popular culture references in Sontag's essay are fairly obscure and would be lost on most of today's readers. Less obscure examples cited by Sontag included Carmen Miranda's tutti frutti hats and low-budget science fiction movies of the 1950s and 1960s.

These are very different things that we are putting in Susan's mouth. Which is which? Hyacinth 11:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"Most of the popular culture references in Sontag's essay are fairly obscure and would be lost on most of today's readers" is POV and should be removed. Obscurity is relative. --Chips Critic 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the offending phrase (and a bit). --Chips Critic 02:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

I added the {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} tag because there are a number of specific claims this article makes that I'd like to see the reference for, and there are no notes within the article as to where the source for any given peice of information can be found. The gay community appreciating camp, for example, is a statement I'd specifically like to see a source for. Could some inline notes be added? Fieari 21:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed Template:Unreferenced. Please use Template:fact after each specific claim in need of citation. Hyacinth 09:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be hard to find an authoritative text stating that gays appreciate camp. However, gay appreciation of camp is a well-known stereotype, which is certainly backled up by moutains of antedoctal evidence and this is a stereotype, which has never been challenged by the gay community as being inaccurate.

The problem with citing a source for gay appreciation for camp, would be like trying to find a source indicating that uneducated, working-class people are more likely to have a mullett and drive a Camero or Trans-Am, than educated people from a higher socio-economic class. There may be no concrete sociological data to support the connection between mulletts and Cameros to the lower classes, but few would dispute that such a connection exists. VonRatt 23 April 2006.

[edit] Further reading

I moved all of these here as they may or may not even mention camp:

  • Jim Collins, 1989: Uncommon Cultures. Popular Culture and Post-Modernism, Mew York/London: Routledge.
  • Umberto Eco, 1986: Travels in Hyperreality, New York: Harcourt.
  • Umberto Eco, 1988 (1964, 1978): The Structure of Bad Taste, Amsterdam: Bert Bakker.
  • Thomas Hine, Populuxe, Knopf, New York, 1986.
  • Tania Modleski, 1986: "The Terror of Pleasure. The Contemporary Horror Film and Postmodern Theory", in Tania Modleski (ed.), Studies in Entertainment. Critical Approaches to Mass Culture, Bloomington/Indianapolis: Indiana University Press, 155-167.
  • Thomas J. Roberts, 1990: An Aesthetics of Junk Fiction, Athens (Georgia)/London: University of Georgia Press.
  • Clem Robyns, 1991: "Beyond the first dimension: recent tendencies in popular culture studies", in Joris Vlasselaers (Ed.) The Prince and the Frog, Leuven: ALW, 14-32.
  • Ross, Andrew (1989). No Respect. Intellectuals and Popular Culture, New York/London: Routledge.
  • Washburne, Christopher J. and Derno, Maiken (eds.) (2004). Bad Music: The Music We Love to Hate. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0415943663.
    • Oakes, Jason Lee. "Pop Music, Racial Imagination, and the Sounds of Cheese: Notes on Loser's Lounge".

Hyacinth 09:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruce Lee

Removed ”many of them starring Bruce Lee”, since he died young and only ever starred in five films. -- Bossk-Office

[edit] Comedy Versus Camp

I was thinking... would it be a good idea to distinguish between camp and more traditional forms of comedy? I mean, there's a difference between a show or movie, etc. that's meant to be funny, but in which the characters act reasonably realistically versus one wherein they act in an over-the-top manner that people wouldn't act in in real life.

A good example would be BILL AND TED movies versus BACK TO THE FUTURE movies. They have similar subject matter, but the latter is a more pure form of camp as the characters act in a cartoonish way whereas the later-- while still funny--has the characters act in a more realistic fashion; the sci-fi elements notwithstanding.

What do you guys think?

[edit] Parody vs Camp

What is the difference between those two ideas? Is there any? Answer to this question would also help to understand the vague notion of camp.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 11:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


At the risk of annoying some people, this extremely broad definition of "camp" is really bizarre and very confusing. This article seems to blur the lines between "cult", "parody", "cheesy" and "camp". The dictionary definition of the word is a) affected, effeminate - b) homosexual - c) done in an exaggerated way for effect. That's it, no more. By definition, it is not possible to be unintentionally camp, so what the hell is this article all about? You can't take something from 35 years ago that wasn't intended to be camp and decide that it now is. It has to be something else.

If there's an American usage of this word that transcends its actual meaning, then it needs to be made clear. Bretonbanquet 15:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Which dictionary? Hyacinth 11:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary. Bretonbanquet 17:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] contradictory definitions

These contradictory definitions are separated by only one sentence!:

Camp refers to the deliberate and sophisticated use of kitsch.

Today, camp falls into two distinct categories: intentional camp and unintentional camp. Intentional camp, as the name suggests, constitutes the deliberate use of camp for humour. Unintentional camp arises from naïveté or poor quality or tastes. Unintentional camp can thus be considered "true camp.

This makes no sense. According to the first definition, unintentional camp is kitsch, not camp. --Espoo 16:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree - this article needs a proper definition of whatever camp means in the US. Bretonbanquet 18:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
See the quotes below. It seems the "unintentional" bit will have to go. I couldn't find any references for this claim in the article either. --Espoo 02:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

American Heritage: NOUN: 1. An affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly thought to be artificial, vulgar, or banal. 2. Banality, vulgarity, or artificiality when deliberately affected or when appreciated for its humor: “Camp is popularity plus vulgarity plus innocence” (Indra Jahalani). ADJECTIVE: Having deliberately artificial, vulgar, banal, or affectedly humorous qualities or style: played up the silliness of their roles for camp effect.

Merriam-Webster: 3camp Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by homosexuals 2 : a homosexual displaying camp 3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or out-of-date as to be considered amusing 4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical

Compact Oxford: camp2 informal • adjective 1 (of a man) ostentatiously and extravagantly effeminate. 2 deliberately exaggerated and theatrical in style. • noun camp behaviour or style.

Cambridge: camp (STYLE) Show phonetics adjective INFORMAL 1 (of a man) behaving and dressing in a way that some people think is typical of a homosexual: What's the name of that amazingly camp actor with the high voice and a funny walk?

2 using bold colours, loud sounds, unusual behaviour, etc. in an amusing way: Their shows are always incredibly camp and flamboyant.

New Oxford: camp2 informal: adjective (of a man or his manner) ostentatiously and extravagantly effeminate: a heavily made-up and highly camp actor. deliberately exaggerated and theatrical in style, typically for humorous effect: the movie seems more camp than shocking or gruesome. noun [mass noun] deliberately exaggerated and theatrical behaviour or style: Hollywood camp. verb [no obj.] (of a man) behave in an ostentatiously effeminate way: he camped it up a bit for the cameras. -DERIVATIVES campily adverb campiness noun campy adjective. -ORIGIN early 20th cent.: of unknown origin.

That's pretty much what I always understood camp to be. Unless anyone can find references or acceptable definitions of camp meaning something other than what's outlined above, then the article needs some real pruning. Bretonbanquet 16:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I tried to steer the article back to the dictionary definitions by removing obvious references to "unintentional camp". More work is still required. --Blainster 18:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


I am the one who wrote most of the article on camp including the difference between intentional and unintentional camp. I believe that the confussion some have had concerning intentional and unintentional camp arose from the fact that originally, the definition of camp referred exclusively to intentional camp. Eventually, the definition grow to include unintentional camp, to the point where the term camp is most often used to refer to unintentional camp.

John Waters intentionally uses camp in his films. In other words, he is in on the joke. By contrast, shows like The Brady Bunch and Leave It To Beaver were never meant to be camp when they were created, but today they are some of the most commonly cited examples cited when explaining the concept of camp to a person unfamiliar with the concept of camp. Few would dispsute that these shows are camp, and they must be considered unintentional camp, as they were not meant to be camp when they were created.

The dictionary definitions of camp need to be improved and brought up to date. As is often the case with dictionary defintions, these definitions have not caught up with the times to reflect how the term camp is most commonly used today. They appear to have frozen a Mid-Twentieth Century definition of camp, which was devised when the concept of camp was in its infancy and had not fully developed to the point where it is today.

 VonRatt 23 April 2006.

"Few would dispsute that these shows are camp... " No, they are kitsch. Unintentional camp is a contradiction in terms. It is possible to enjoy these shows in a camp way - postmodern, ironic, etc. - but doesn't make the originals camp. I would say that items, works, sujects that we can enjoy like this are in themselves not camp, but kitsch.213.104.164.20 15:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Graeme

---

IMO camp is always intentional, but it is enough that intentionality is present either in the production of the cultural artefact or in the consumption of the artefact. It is indeed possible to take, for example, a crappy TV show that was not originally meant to be camp and watch it with an ironical attitude. In this case, the act of watching is indeed camp even if the TV show per se is not.Punainen Nörtti 14:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

But that isn't saying an awful lot of any use Punainen Nörtti! I can choose to watch Schindler's List in a camp way if I want to - it says nothing at all about the film, filmaker or anything other than my own stupidity. Anything can be subjected to ironic interpretation - this doesn't get us any closer to what is or is not camp in its own right.86.20.55.243 17:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Graeme

I think that the disambiguation page has quite a nice definition

Camp (style), an ironic appreciation of that which might otherwise be considered outlandish or corny

I think that camp is not a property that a thing has or does not have in its own right. Camp is rather a way to interpret things. It is possible that the maker of a thing has intended it to be interpreted as a camp, but it is also possible to enjoy as camp on things that were not originally meant to be camp. For example, imagine a person that wears corny clothes just because he thinks that they are corny. The clothes were not originally meant to be corny, and thus we have non-intentionality in the manufacturing process. However, the act of wearing them is camp (and the wearer has even intended his dressing style to be camp). I think that my example with the act of watching a TV show is analoguous.

Thus, I think that the question whether something is camp in its own right is meaningless. There are two meaningful questions: Is something originally intended to be appreciated as camp? and Is something appreciated as camp? Camp is not a property of an item but rather a relation between an item and its perceiver.

Update: According to the disambig page definition it is not possible to enjoy anything as camp. If you want to watch something, for example Schindler's list, as camp, you must first perceive it as outlandish or corny. I am not sure if I can find enough corny or kitchy elements from Schindler's list to enable me to enjoy it as camp. Mixing holocaust, a serious tragedy, with cheap Hollywood-style pathos does have some qualities thay perhaps could be enjoyed as camp, but nevertheless I am not sure if it would work for me.

Punainen Nörtti 14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Snakes on a Plane

Would the title of Snakes on a Plane be considered camp? Coffee 15:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think so, but you'd need to cite it being called that (WP:NOR, WP:V) to put it in the article. --Davidstrauss 21:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
No, for God's sake! Have you even been reading this page?
SoaP is parodical (in that it extracts humour from a genre which usually intends only to elicit fright in the audience), but still contains fright elements. It is therefore an affectionate parody. In the sense that it is ironic, it belongs to the same super-huge grouping of ironic stuff as camp; in the way that Mohammed Karzai and Jenny McCarthy both belong in the same gigantic grouping of human beings, while not otherwise related.
That was irony, BTW
Nuttyskin 04:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Comedy - the camp tradition

There is a tradition of "camp" comedy in Britain. This is based primarily on the definition of camp as being a display of effeminancy, outrageous homosexual posturing etc.

At a time prior to the legalisation of male homosexual practice in the UK (1967) - and to this day - many of our most dearly loved comic characters and performers have paraded feintly veiled (and latterly not so veiled!) gay attitudes, innuendo and double entendres.

Examples: Larry Grayson, Kenneth Williams, the Carry On series, Frankie Howerd, Mr Humphries (from the TV show Are You Being Served?), the drag performers Lilly Savage and Danny La Rue, Graham Norton, Julian Clary...

(This is not to say that camp has been exclusively a male thing. Outrageous displays of femininity have also been a comic staple - either over the top sexiness or battle-axe grotesquery. See Barbara Windsor for the former; Hilda Baker for the latter.)

It is amusing to recall just how many mums and grannies of the 1960s and 1970s loved these guys, shieked with laughter at their goings-on, but would become outraged at the very idea that their favourites were in any way gay! "I bet he's married with six kids!" "Oh no! He's just a gentleman..."

These types of performers - with the exception of the new breed of more openly gay acts - are often derided these days by Gay Rights commentators for being "closet" but at the same time for perpetuating myths and stereotypes about gay men!

American TV seems much more relaxed about this - Jack from Will and Grace is the most joyous character in this tradition today. That he owes a debt to the British tradition might be confirmed by the numerous explicit references made to British popular culture in the show. 213.104.164.20 15:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Graeme

[edit] Unencyclopaedic

I've put a cleanup notice on this article because so much of it seems too informal, chatty and unsubstantiated. 86.134.37.181 23:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

It's also very hard to understand what the term actually means. You should be able to read the lead once, and very clearly pick out the definition. --P-Chan 15:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. This is certainly no example of objectivity but, quite simply, this article sucks. The article offers no real--or at least no readily apparent--definition of the term except through example, which must certainly be inappropriate for an encyclopedic article. Additionally, to define through example one must have a basis for example besides personal opinion, hearsay, or popular concensus. I'm not sure it would be possible to appropriately offer examples of camp through this medium with such constraints. Metalrobot 11:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
i agree, most of this article is POV.
This is one of the worst articles on Wikipedia I've ever read. It needs some serious cleanup. You can definitely define camp without having to get into seemingly unrelated aspects of gay culture.
This is only because none of you understand the subject. It is from popular culture, its edges are blurry, it is many things to different people and it is unencyclopaedic by definition. Not everything will fit into the Aritotelian grid. What do you do? Throw it away because it won't fit?
Or make the grid fit the subject?
Nuttyskin 04:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Steady, everyone. Camp as a style is difficult to define, and will necessarily include some generalities. There's no need to get all postmodern and upset about it. --Kerowyn Leave a note 23:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My observations on camp

I feel that camp, at heart, amounts to an extreme or parodic artistic realization of an illusion, especially a popular illusion. It is the artistic equivalent of exposing the fallacy of an idea by taking it to its logical extreme.

For example, the "swish" is a parodic realization of the stereotype of gay effeminacy. Adam West's Batman was a laughable personification of truth, justice and the American way, and the Batman series itself a garish incarnation of the Cold War battle between good and evil. The Dr. Strangelove story line is an exaggerated and unlikely fulfillment of Cold War paranoia.

The best camp strains the credibility of the illusion it parodies without breaking it. The parody is apparent to those who realize the illusion, but invisible to those who buy into the illusion. Carmen Miranda's tutti-frutti hats were clearly a parody of fashion, nevertheless, socially aspiring housewives bought and wore them believing them to be the height of fashion. Those who recognized Archie Bunker as a parody of conservative values laughed at his insane bigotries, even while working-class conservatives shouted "Amen" to his tirades.

Clearly, camp can be unintentional, for example, the movie "Reefer Madness" was written as a cautionary tale in the 1930's, when public awareness of the effects of marijuana was poor. When "Reefer Madness" was rediscovered in the 1970's, the public was much more familiar with the effects of marijuana, and the movie's exaggerated acting and incredible story line had turned into a parody of the true dangers of marijuana, and the movie became a favorite with the drug culture.

[edit] French slang ?

Just a detail, I guess, but the verb "camper" (to camp), is not slang at all. It has something to do with theater : a comedian represents a character, more than he "plays" the characater, he "is" the character, ... he "camps" the character. It also have an "affected" and eggagerated nuance (lets' say, Cyrano De Bergerac and DePardieu - I dont know the english word for "surjouer" - lets say "overplaying" ?), which might suggere distanciation. This is something about representation, wich the "camp" culture seems to be familiar with, I guess.

Hope you'll excuse my broken english, --Remka 13:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Si vous will excuser mon broken franglais?
Nuttyskin 05:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NASCAR and professional wrestling examples of camp?

Is wrestling camp? No one involved in it seems to take themselves very seriously. I also loathe NASCAR, but I have heard the reason people enjoy it so much when there are so much better racing competitions in terms of technology, skill and speed (Formula 1 for exampple) is that people are facinated by the flair and personalities of the drivers. Does that make NASCAR camp?

[edit] 2nd worst wikipedia article ever!!

This is the 2nd worst wikipedia article ever.Yet-another-user 05:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

How so? Hyacinth 21:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Trust me, it used to be much worse! Yet-another-user 03:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrities

This is absolute nonsense. Isn't Wikipedia meant to be a compendium of objective fact? Why is there a whole section listing celebrities who, as some loser has decided, behave in a 'camp' way? I believe 'camp' is such a nebulous term that it doesn't deserve an article for itself, and Wikipedia doesn't deserve to exist, for tolerating such rubbish.

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