User talk:Caligvla

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Wikicommons search page:[1].

[edit] Armenia is NOT in Europe

Those Opposed (10)

They have only 3 claims, 1.) Armenia is a member of the Con. of Europe, not to be confused with the EU, you do not have to be a European nation to be a memeber just have trade with Europe. 2.) A BCC reference page that puts on a list of European nations 3.) A Canadian website that puts Armenia in Europe

This is what the article should state.

"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Asia and Europe, however the majority of official geographic classifications of the country places it entirely in Asia not bordering Europe. However some sources vary, as a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."

Relocate the statement back to its original position in the Geography section. This compromise is more than fair and serves both sides.


My Sources, Supporting evidence for the change

Recent Scholarly Journal Articles that have been under Peer Review (cites Armenia is growing closer to the Middle East culturally and moving away from Europe.)

1.Observation of Coherent π[sup 0] Electroproduction on Deuterons at Large Momentum Transfer. By: Tomasi-Gustafsson, E.; Bimbot, L.; Danagoulian, S.; Gustafsson, K.; Mack, D.; Mkrtchyan, H.; Rekalo, M.P.. Physics of Atomic Nuclei, Dec2003, Vol. 66 Issue 12, p2159-2168, 10p; DOI: 10.1134/1.1634323; (AN 11714909)

2.Armenia Wants Second Mideast Synchrotron. By: Koenig, Robert. Science, 11/24/2000, Vol. 290 Issue 5496, p1481, 1/2p, 1c; (AN 3817426)

3.Book reviews. By: Krikorian, Robert O.. International Journal of Middle East Studies, May98, Vol. 30 Issue 2, p276, 3p; (AN 607702)

4.Reviews of Books: Middle East. By: Bournoutian, George. American Historical Review, Oct97, Vol. 102 Issue 4, p1197, 2p; (AN 9711021875)

5.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Kechichian, Joseph A.. Middle East Journal, Autumn97, Vol. 51 Issue 4, p605, 2p; (AN 9711171671)

6.Africa & the Middle East. By: Papazian, Dennis R.. History: Reviews of New Books, Spring97, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p131, 3/8p; (AN 9705014215)

7.Book reviews: The Armenians. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Autumn96, Vol. 50 Issue 4, p596, 3p; (AN 9706241608)

8.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Summer95, Vol. 49 Issue 3, p509, 2p; (AN 9510232977)

9.Works on Islam in Russian. By: Landau, Jacob M.. Middle Eastern Studies, Jul93, Vol. 29 Issue 3, p580, 5p; (AN 9308307357)

10.Chosen peoples: Why ethnic groups survive. By: Smith, Anthony D.. Ethnic & Racial Studies, Jul92, Vol. 15 Issue 3, p436, 21p; (AN 9210192609)

11.. "Armenia and the Middle East" By Gayane Novikova from the Middle East Review of Internatonal Affairs Journal Vol. 4 No. 4 Dec. 2000.

More unbaised academic sources that are non-political in nature.

1. The American Heritage Dictionary, places Armenia in Asia Minor

2. The CIA World Fact Book, places Armenia in Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey

3. Easton's Dictionary, places Armenia in western Asia

4. Encyclopedia Britannica, places Armenia in Transcaucasia, lying just south of the great mountain range of the Caucasus and fronting the northwestern extremity of Asia.

5. Rand McNally Atlas, places Armenia in Asia

look in your house for a reference book and look up Armenia, I am not making this up.

Every credible academic source places Armenia in Asia with a non European culture and Language.

Here look below all you have to do is click

1.) Maps of the World http://www.mapsofworld.com/country-profile/armenia.html Location of Armenia The country of Armenia is located in Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey.

2.) CIA World Fact Book https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/am.html Location:

Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey

3.) American Heritage Dictionary http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/A0427400.html A country of Asia Minor east of Turkey and north of Iran.

4.) Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/nations/Armenia extremity of Asia

you can go on all day every reference book on Earth will place Armenia in Asia.

How much more do you need?

--Caligvla 18:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AMA and tags

Two things. First, as a new member of the AMA I'd be happy to become your advocate in the case relating to Armenia, unless you have one already. Second, on an unrelated matter, I hope you don't mind that I borrowed the Conservative and George W. Bush tags from your user page to use on my own user page; I've been looking for those templates for some time. (It appears that your politics are much the same as mine.) Walton monarchist89 10:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've taken a look at the pages Armenia and Armenians which you cited. It looks like the major problem is that no-one can agree over whether Armenia is in Europe or Asia. Like most such adversarial debates, it's degenerated at times into personal attacks. It seems like the best thing for you to do is to obtain and cite relevant sources claiming that Armenia is in Asia. The thing with Wikipedia is that everyone's entitled to an opinion - but you can't argue with sources and citations, as WP:VERIFY tells us. So the best way to win this debate is to quote some sources. You mentioned an anthropological study; if you can quote the source of this study and provide a relevant web address or publication details, that would be a good start. Walton monarchist89 10:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm satisfied with the sources you quoted. Although I'm not an Armenia expert, it seems to me that you're right; I always thought of Armenia and the rest of the Caucasus as part of Asia, since they're further east than Istanbul and the Ural Mountains. Culturally I don't know enough to be sure, but your sources seem to me to be definitive and well-researched. If the opposition has as few sources as you say, then under the rules of Wikipedia they don't have a leg to stand on. I will therefore contact them and attempt to resolve this dispute peacefully. Walton monarchist89 09:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Walton, how can we talk off wiki? Do you have AIM or an e-mail contact?--Caligvla 15:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tekleni

Keep an eye on Tekleni, see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Origin_of_the_Armenians and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tekleni and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_on_open_proxies He seems to be trying to set you up and I don't want to be caught up in your mess. You better fix it with him. --Hamparzoum 20:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah yeah... Using their logic Tekleni could = Eupator or = Clevelander... I don't use socks other than on my feet so I am not too worried. It all started with their false claim that Armenia is in Europe and since they don't have any legitimate sources to back up their claim I have been under non-stop personal attacks and they been gamming the system. Just keep your nose clean, they can't hurt ya...good luck--Caligvla 00:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To Augustgrahl, Eupator, Tekleni & Clevelander

Just for the record I never asked Augustgrahl to say Turkic. I wasn't heckling either. I felt that comparing Armenians to Slavs and Germanics was misleading and I suggested the comparison should be with other closer related Indo-Europeans. Aug. chose Turkic and if you look through the history I was the first to ask him to remove it and replace it with Tocharians and Iranians as I recall.

I hope you guys can realize that I am not out to disparage anyone.

I know all of you feel a strong connection to Europe, and I happen to disagree that Armenia is a European culture. Can we just start from there?

I am sorry for the very early edits, I really am. But when I ran across the Armenian articles, there is a deliberate European push. I was deeply offended and I made some edits that crossed the line. I pushed back. At the time I didn't understand there was process to resolve issues until Aguerriero got involved and showed me how to go about it the right way.

You guys have all been here a lot longer than me and know loads of rules, and I feel like they were used as a weapon. At times while trying to do the right thing and right procedure. I feel like was I constantly bated and may have crossed the line again.

Eupator, I feel like you have made it your mission to wikistalk me and bate me. Can we end this? Have have constructive conversation? Just today you said my research was just an internet seach for "Middle East" & "Armenia" If you read any of the articles you know that's not true, I put a lot of work into finding academic peer reviewed articles that culturally place Armenia in the Middle East. Just read the first 3 paragraphs of this one. http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2000/issue4/jv4n4a6.html You also make my silly edit on the DNA abstract look as if it was a serious attempt to deceive. I made it so clear where I found the article so it would be easy enough to find, I was bating you and wanted you to spin your wheels, that should be clear. And I am sorry, you were just so aggressive that day, and I was sick of it. But I do admit I feel a bit like John Kerry on this one...

Tekleni, relax on the sock puppets, I really don't use them. I don't need to do I? I have the wealth of world's reference books on my side. I do admit before I knew the rules on it. I asked friends in the academic community to look into the issue and post their thoughts. I didn't ask them copy my views only to look into it and share their thoughts, however I was informed this is called meatpuppets and I stopped a long time ago. You seem very certain in your convictions and I am not sure how to change that. But for now can you at least assume good intent?

I am sorry I have hurt some of you, but this issue hurts me too, and try to look at it form an Asian perspective, it looks like you are trying so shun everything Asian about your culture as if it was a bad thing, don't you think this is insulting to others Asia?

Can you guys just try to work with me constructively and I will promise to do the same? --Caligvla 17:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Even the article that you provided says "Armenians view their country as linking the Middle Eastern and European cultural areas." Why do you find the notion that Armenians could also be Europeans to be so offensive? Isn't it racist to be "offended" that an ethnic group could be geographically/culturally/racially associated with yours? And what are these scholarly articles that you are providing, about synchrotrons and deuterons? What do they have to do with Armenia? -- Augustgrahl 21:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The article about synchrotrons clearly states Armenia is in the Middle East. To say Armenia has been influenced by Europe and has influcenced Europe is fine. To say Armenia is a European nation is not. I appreciate your feedback.--Caligvla 21:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Shinzo_Abe1.jpg

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[edit] Progress on the Armenia dispute

I have contacted User:Eupator, User:Augustgrahl and User:Tekleni. They have quoted sources in support of their side of the dispute, which may be seen on my talk page. I suggest to them, and to you, that the relevant disputed sections could be reworded to read something like Some authorities consider Armenia an Asian country, due to its geographical position and the historical relationship of Armenians to Asian peoples. However, Armenia is part of the Council of Europe, and is now considered part of Europe for some purposes. Armenians themselves disagree about whether their country is Asian or European. Do you agree with this as an acceptable form of phrasing? Walton monarchist89 10:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC) As for talking outside of wiki, that's difficult; my e-mail address isn't currently fully operational and I don't have any further methods of communication on any other sites. But I think the Wikipedia talk pages ought to suffice for now. Walton monarchist89 10:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you accept this edit to the Armenia page: Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Transcaucasus. Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe by some authorities, in place of Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe. Walton monarchist89

[edit] Nixer's block

Caligvla, if it was you, who did these edits, why don't you confirm it at Nixer's talkpage ? It could help getting him unblocked. If it was not you, why don't you go and deny it there ? --Lysytalk 19:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I sent an e-mail to Mango Juice about it...--Caligvla 20:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I think this is solved already, as Khoikhoi unblocked him. --Lysytalk 20:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you nixers friend?--Caligvla 20:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I would not say so. --Lysytalk 20:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Caligvla clearly tried to avoid publicly admitting that he uses sockpuppets and that's why in public Caligvla actualy said that "I have never once used a sock other than to cover my foot."[2] and "Anyway this is not my battle,"[3].--Staberinde 11:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I was being funny, I thought it was clever, but I honestly do not use sockpuppets. I am sorry Nixer was unfairly blocked, but I did no thave anything to do with it.--Caligvla 20:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenia - straw poll on proposed changes

User:Augustgrahl has agreed to the compromise I outlined on his talk page, which is that the sentence Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Caucasus will be an acceptable replacement for Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, as long as we also continue to include the sentence about Armenia being a transcontinental nation. User:Eupator has declined to accept this compromise. I have now opened a straw poll on this issue on my talk page. Please add your comments supporting or opposing the proposed change. Walton monarchist89 09:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As you can see, the straw poll has provoked equally strong support and opposition for the proposed changes. It's useful, if only to show that there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate - but it sends us back to square one, in that the opposition from User:Eupator, User:The Myotis and User:Hectorian is strong enough that I don't have a mandate to make the changes. As such, having failed to find a compromise of my own, I'm now inviting everyone else to suggest one. We need to find a way of saying, in a way that no one finds offensive, that Armenia is both in Asia and in Europe and that the domestic political situation reflects links with both continents. Any ideas would be welcomed. Walton monarchist89 12:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC opening

Given the complete deadlock on this issue, and the failure of the strawpoll, I think the time has come to take the dispute-resolution process to the next level by opening a request for comment. This will open the debate up to the whole Wikipedia community, and hopefully generate, if not consensus, then at least a majority view. I will invite all users involved in this issue to contribute to the RfC, which can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. I realise that you may now be a bit bored with having to explain your views again and again on different pages, but as an advocate I think this is the only way to finally end this dispute. Walton monarchist89 09:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that it would be healthy to take a week off from this dispute. I don't think it'll be necessary to block any of the users involved, as the statement currently appearing on the Armenia page (Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe) reflects their views anyway. So we can wait until the strawpoll and RfC expire. After that, if we're forced to go to mediation I will continue to assist you - but, obviously, mediation should only be a last resort, and I hope to avoid that eventuality. Walton monarchist89 09:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I think it would advisable for Caligvla to drop this issue all together. If he expects his racist comments (c.f. Talk:Armenia) to ever become a consensus, he's wasting his time.--Tekleni 09:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re Change of Congress

If you want my view, I personally think it was a bit pointless to vote Democrat - they don't have any real alternative plans for pulling troops out of Iraq, and mostly just fought a negative campaign against President Bush. I think it's a mistake when people treat congressional elections as a referendum on the incumbent president - congressional candidates should be judged on their merits, not purely on their party affiliation. So I wasn't keen on the result. (Hence my This user supports George W. Bush userbox; I think it was ultimately right to send troops to topple Saddam Hussein, and I respect Bush for that.) Walton monarchist89 10:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failure of my RfA

I deleted the comment I left here, as it was just me feeling sorry for myself due to the failure of my RfA. Please ignore it.Walton monarchist89 20:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Umbria

Hi Caligula. Instead of dumbly reverting back my edits, why don't we talk before on the discussion page of Umbria? Non si nasce 'imparati' per cui mi piacerebbe capire quali sono i giganteschi errori che commetto nel mio edit. --Cantalamessa 10:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userboxes

I've decided to emulate you in designing my own userboxes; what do you think of my constitutional monarchy and Elizabeth II userboxes here? Walton monarchist89 13:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Umbria

Please do not revert back an edit which is clearly inappropriate. As I explained, twice, in edit summaries, this edit contains weasel words and is unsourced. Both of these are against the rules of Wikipedia. Please do not replace that edit unless you remove the weasel words and can [{WP:CITE|cite]] reliable sources for it. Thanks, Gwernol 03:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The version you reverted said: "The physical characteristics of the Umbrian people are what many scholars believe to be very close to the ancient people of the Italian peninsula." The phrase "what many scholars believe" is weasel words unless you provide a sources citing the specific scholars. Also, please leave messages for me on my talk page, not my userpage. Thanks, Gwernol 04:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notifying you about my new desk

I have now created a desk for AMA business - from now on, all messages relating to AMA cases should be left on there rather than my talkpage. (If you leave a message on there I will still reply on your talkpage, unless you specify otherwise.) Btw thanks for sorting out my userboxes - I can't get the hang of this page design stuff. Walton monarchist89 12:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

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