Template talk:Calvinism

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Contents 1 Baptist? 2 People choices 2.1 The Princeton Theology 2.2 Edwards makes the cut 2.3 Knox makes the cut 3 Project overview: Sorting who is whom 3.1 Reformed and Calvinist are not the same: Barth 3.1.1 Torrance and Packer 3.1.2 Beza makes the cut 4 The Princeton theology 5 Gateway pages 5.1 Group by nationality or century: Rejected 5.2 Neo-orthodoxy and neo-calvinism 5.2.1 Barth and Torrance: Calvinists or Calvin admirers 5.2.2 Neo-calvinism: not consensus terminology for Barthians 5.2.3 Neo-calvinism: Consensus terminology for Kuyperians 6 Summary of above 7 Boers and Magyars 8 Can we fit this quote in somewhere? 9 Denominations 10 Institutes 11 Width decisions

[edit] Baptist?

I was wondering when you guys would get around to making a Calvinism template! At any rate, I just wanted to ask whether or not "Baptist" was appropo for this template. While there certainly are Calvinist Baptists, there are many Baptists who are not Calvinist, and it is kind of its own tradition with its own doctrinal history. Just a thought. KHM03 15:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Particular Baptist, maybe? The problem with "Reformed Baptist" is that it is also the name of a very anti-Calvinistic restorationist sect. Mkmcconn (Talk) 16:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Mkmcconn said above, regarding Reformed Baptist, "it is also the name of a very anti-Calvinistic restorationist sect". That's interesting because I have never heard of such and the wiki article on Reformed Baptist doesn't mention such. Hmmmm. Jim Ellis 19:21, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] People choices

Good work on the Calvinism template. The hardest part is deciding what to leave out. One thing perhaps worth adding is presuppositional apologetics, though I guess that's not universal like the five points and solas. Some people probably worth adding are Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge (instead of Warfield?), and maybe John Owen? Just trying to cover the (temporal) spectrum a bit. --Flex 16:08, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Princeton Theology

I chose Warfield instead of Hodge, because he is often represented as the "Last of the great Princeton theologians" (and besides, I like him more :-) I chose Edwards instead of Owen, as representing the more abiding line of Congregationalist influence. Kuyper rather than Schilder, to represent the Continentals because he's better known (although I favor Schilder). Spurgeon would be a nice addition; and we need a few representative graduate schools (like Princeton, perhaps). Mkmcconn (Talk) 16:39, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Warfield instead of Hodge is proper, and Edwards is essential to American Calvinism. Kuyper & Schilder I don't know much about (other than names). Spurgeon, though Calvinist, would be more of a Baptist giant (maybe the Baptist giant), wouldn't you say? Don't really care; not a really big fan anyway. KHM03 16:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Any shot for John Wesley? KHM03 16:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe a good way to handle the choice between Hodge and Warfield is not to make the choice (although I much prefer Warfield - did I say that already?), and to bundle them up under a new article called Princeton theologians, which perhaps would redirect to Princeton theology. There we could put Geerhardus Vos, B.B. Warfield, Charles Hodge - and for that matter, the whole Log Cabin/New Jersey college New Light + Old School tradition: in which case, we could put in John Orr, and take out Edwards (who is part of that Princeton tradition). Mkmcconn (Talk)

Wesley will have to wait for another day to become a Calvinist. :-) Mkmcconn (Talk) 16:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Having a link to Princeton theology/theologians is probably a good way to go, and certainly historically important (would you include Machen, who bolted?). But I might still include Edwards, whose importance to American Calvinism is probably greater than the rest of the Princeton group combined. But I defer. KHM03 16:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edwards makes the cut

Good point about Edwards' breadth of influence. I do like the idea of pointing to Machen, Van Til and Murray (via Princeton, that is). Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd definitely keep Edwards. In the first century or two of American history, maybe only Asbury can compare to Edwards in terms of accomplishments and influence...and Asbury's were not (for the most part) theological, but organizational and evangelistic. Whitefield might compare in terms of the impact of his preaching, but Edwards is up there with the all-time most important American religious figures, and may be #1 (it pains me to say somewhat!). KHM03 17:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I like the idea of "Princeton theologians." If we had to choose, Hodge seems to me to be a better representative of Calvinism because of his work in systematics. Warfield (whom I like equally if not more) did a good bit of that, too, but there is no unified magnum opus to point to; his theology is spread out among myriad popular articles and scholarly essays rather than collected and systematized in one book. Hodge is primarily seen (historically speaking) as a defender of orthodox Calvinism, while Warfield's efforts were divided between various fronts (biblical inspiration, perfectionism, Calvinism, etc.).

No question that Edwards should be in there. I was looking for a 17th century representative, though, and Owen seems like the best candidate for that. Machen would be good for a 20th century figure. We might also consider some well-known, living teachers of Calvinism like R. C. Sproul or J. I. Packer. Or maybe the rule should be that they have to be dead. --Flex 18:08, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Knox makes the cut

Probably a good rule of thumb; but there might be another way to do that, under a List of Calvinist theologians; however, to start that page and make it worthwhile, we're going to need a lot more people interested in the topic. Most links would be red. Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

There's already Category:Calvinists and its subcat Category:Reformed theologians which are fairly well populated. Seems a bit redundant to copy all that data into another location, though it might allow more convenient organization. Even if we create that list, I'd still favor listing the most important theologians in the template. Speaking of which, I presume you included Knox because of his historical influence. The others are more known as devloping the theology rather than leading historical movements (well, aside from Calvin himself who did both). If someone had to go to make room for others, I'd say he's the best candidate. --Flex 19:27, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Neato. Perhaps we could add that thus:

Reformed theologians John Calvin John Knox Jonathan Edwards Charles Spurgeon Abraham Kuyper B.B. Warfield

Mkmcconn (Talk)

and re: Knox, ouch. Examining my feelings of loyalty, I'm not very open to taking out Knox to leave room for the Baptist. Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:52, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Project overview: Sorting who is whom

Another thing to consider is that, although I personally rarely bring to mind any of the neo-orthodox and liberal theologians, when I think of "Reformed" - a list of Reformed theologians without the likes of Richard Baxter, Karl Barth, and even Jeremy Taylor (listed in order of egregiousness) and the like, merely because of their situation in history, as leaders in a nominally Reformed church. Reformed, and Calvinist, are not the same. I would wish that the top level Category was Category:Reformed Christians (John Milton,Woodrow Wilson) (subcat Category:Calvinists(Guillaume Groen Van Prinsterer), subcat Category:Calvinist theologians (Calvin, et.al - we will be bold to declare him one), and subcat Category:Non-Calvinist Reformed theologians (Arminius, Amyraut, Baxter, Watts, Barth), etc. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

That last one stinks; but I don't know what else to call it. Mkmcconn (Talk) 20:25, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reformed and Calvinist are not the same: Barth

Barth makes sense...probably the greatest theologian in the Calvinist stream of the 20th century...certainly the most important. Beza also deserves mentionoon the template...moreso than Kuyper or Spurgeon or Warfield, don't you think? And how about Michael Servetus (he, he)? I also don't think a "non-Reformed" category makes any sense. There are already categories for Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, et al. KHM03 20:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

And, also, leave on Knox. He put the "meat on the bones" re: Calvinist ecclesiology, whereas Spurgeon...was a Baptist. Knox seems to me to be far more essential to a Calvinism template. KHM03 20:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Torrance and Packer

ONE MORE THING...or two...Thomas Torrance and James Packer are both GIANTS in 20th century Calvinist theology...perhaps only Barth is more important. Just something to ponder & keep in mind. KHM03 20:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No comment about Taylor? I put him in just for you :-) ! But lo; you said "non-Reformed" I said "non-Calvinist Reformed" ; and that is the difference I want to make more clear.

[edit] Beza makes the cut

Regarding Beza, I think that you are putting your finger on why making the short list is hard. Who is Beza? Hardly anyone knows, although you are right that he looms large. Ask in my church and no one under 25 will likely know. But ask about Kuyper, Warfield, Spurgeon? Eyes will brighten. They feel the impact of these men, and not of Beza.

And, you're right. Torrance belongs - not because I would put him there, but because the whole rest of the world would (and I don't seriously begrudge that - Calvinism's identity is not set in stone - you may now jest about the stoney heart of the Calvinist.). But if Torrance belongs, then so does Barth. ...

... sorry. I'm geting too chatty here, I think. May we move toward deciding together? What do you think about the subcategory suggestions? Mkmcconn (Talk) 20:50, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'll gladly defer to you. My suggestion would be to make a Letterman list...Top, say 6 important people.

First, you can ignore Calvin himself by keeping the link to him at the top of the template...no reason to list him again...it's clear that he's the godfather of the whole Calvinist disaster Calvinist system.

Who else makes the list...in terms of importance, not necessarily fame? Beza, I'd say. And Knox. And Edwards. And probably Barth. (Taylor, too, if you have the inclination!) The link to the "Princeton school" would cover a multitude of sins. I'd say that Beza, Knox, Edwards, and Barth are far more important than Kuyper, Spurgeon, et al. Packer & Torrance would be two nice more contemporary names, but it would be hard to justify them (I had the same problem with the Methodist template).

I suggest listing Beza, Knox, Edwards, and Barth, and include a link to a list of Calvinist theologians...it's a Calvinism template, not a Reformed template. That should help.

Good luck...on to perfection. KHM03 20:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, fine. Leave Knox. I say Spurgeon deserves a spot because he's the most famous Baptist ever and even non-Calvinists like him. We might say he's a preacher and popularizer of Calvinism rather than a theologian who developed it (John Bunyan and even John Piper might also fit that description). As for Beza, he was important but is more obscure (like Turretin), and I would still prefer broader representation across the centuries and outside of Geneva. For this reason, I refer you to my unanswered plea for Hodge and Owen. We should add Barth even though he was a wild one; Reformed theology was still his base of operations.

We could always make another template for Reformed Theology as a discipline which could include Biblical Theology, Presuppositional apologetics, Covenant Theology, Reconstructionism(?), etc. --Flex 21:03, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Well, Biblical theology is a whole lot bigger than Reformed stuff. You guys do what you want, of course...I say leave Spurgeon off. He's famous and liked, but not as important as the others (in my view). I think the Reformed theology template would be so similar to Calvinism...would they co-exist on the John Calvin page? That seems silly to me.

Beza might be obscure, but he's crucial. Far more so than Hodge or Owen. Piper doesn't seem to merit mention (esp. compared to more important "contemporaries" like Torrance or Packer), but I like the Bunyan idea. You can add him to my list of suggestions. With Servetus.

And Calvin and Hobbes. KHM03 21:10, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not thinking of a template, but a category. Is that what you were thinking? And with subcategories its not necessary to list everything related. You can be specific, and not make lists of adjectives. Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Princeton theology

Should it be "The Princeton theology" or is the "Princeton theology" okay? Should it go to "theologians" or "theology" Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gateway pages

How do you feel about the Reformed Christian confessions of faith, and the Princeton theology link? is this a good approach? Should we use other gateway pages like these to solve problems raised by having to choose?

[edit] Group by nationality or century: Rejected

We might try a "16thc. 17thc...." approach to theologians; or, we could try using the nations most moved by the Reformed, eg.

European Calvinism American - British - Dutch - French - German - Hungarian - Irish - Italian - Scot - Swiss -

That also looks cumbersome. I feel obligated to embrace the total spectrum, but I don't know how to do that. Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with the link to the confessions; they are important texts for Calvinists. The Princeton link seems a decent compromise to get some of those folks acknowledged in some way in the template.

I wouldn't do the whole "European" link or centuries...just hit the big names. Again, I vote for Beza, Knox, Bunyan, Edwards, and Barth, with the Princeton link. Those are the biggest of the big guns. Why not take it for a spin? KHM03 12:25, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

What does Flex think about that? Anyway, Beza can make the cut, but I favor Spurgeon over Bunyan as being the Baptist more important to Calvinists. It would raise confessionalist Calvinists eyebrows if we bump Kuyper in favor of Barth. Barth and Torrance are rarely ever mentioned in my circles, and are thought of as neo-orthodox, not Calvinist. I know that widening the circle of reference, this is not true. But, as a compromise, we could bundle both groups (Dutch Christian Reformed, and the Barthians) if we linked to Neo-Calvinism and sorted out their differences there. I'll get to work on that page, and in the meantime remove Kuyper, in favor of Beza. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:47, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-orthodoxy and neo-calvinism

I always considered Neo-Orthodoxy to be a Calvinist subgenre the same way that, say, the Holiness movement is a subgenre of Methodism. In an NPOV encyclopedia, wouldn't Barth be the more important Calvinist, even if some Calvinists don't like his particular brand of Calvinism? Few theologians in the 20th century - - of any family (Calvinist, Methodist, etc.) - - can compare to Barth in terms of importance. Just something to think about.

And why wouldn't people like Torrance? KHM03 20:44, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I also defer re:Bunyan vs. Spurgeon. But I think that Bunyan is far more important in terms of all of Christendom; Spurgeon is inconsequential outside of Calvinist and Baptist circles. More food for thought. KHM03 20:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Barth and Torrance: Calvinists or Calvin admirers

I might be the wrong source to go to, for deciding whether Barth should be listed prominently. Mainline Reformed are under his sway - but primarily, in my opinion, because he provided a non-Modernist escape from Calvinism. He was a favorable interpretor of Calvin, but he was far from a confessional Calvinist - and there you have me. I am a confessionalist. Barth was crypto-univeralist, whose influence is ... well, that's why people even in his own camp call themselves "neo-orthodox" and "neo-calvinist". They mean that, they are not the stodgy, "17th century scholastic" "neo-gnostic" calvinist hypocrites with their (my) paper popes (standards of orthodoxy) and quaint obsessions with sexual purity: they are a new kind, they are anxious to say; and so they are. So wouldn't it be a nice, neutral way to solve the question, to combine people like Kuyper, Barth and Torrance, under "neo-Calvinism"? Mkmcconn (Talk) \

Torrance might be seen as a much milder figure than Barth, since his work on trinitarianism and the Fatherhood of God are so greatly admired. But he is not a Calvinist in anything but the neo-orthodox sense. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

I understand what you're saying about Bunyan. If it were "Calvinists" instead of "Calvinism", maybe the choice would go the other way. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:09, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-calvinism: not consensus terminology for Barthians

I'm not too sure about the label "Neo-Calvinism". I don't recall ever hearing it, and I graduated from a mainline Presby seminary with a strong Barthian influence. Then again, I was focused more on my own tradition then what the Presbys were up to. If Barth et al are "Neo-Calvinist", then, by all means, put up a link. I maintain that Barth - - like Edwards - - is one of the most important Calvinists in terms their importance outside the Calvinist camp. Every theologian, Calvinist, Wesleyan, Lutheran, whatever, has to deal with Barth at some point. His importance - - for good or for ill - - cannot be overstated. So, you would certainly want him connected in some way to an NPOV template.

Your assessment of Torrance is right on. In the post-Barth era, only Packer (from the Calvinist camp) is respected on his level. He may be neo-orthodox, but he was a committed Calvinist.

Thank you for not mentioning R.C. Sproul at any point, whom I consider a hack.

Now, I've got to go and look over my sermon for tomorrow, on "Sanctifying Grace & Christian Perfection". Worship well on Sunday...He deserves it. KHM03 01:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I hope that it's not tiresome to discuss this before acting. I think that labelling makes all kinds of decisions ahead of time, that are hard to undo afterward. I do agree with you that "neo-calvinism" is not a nice label, and in using it this encyclopedia could be forcing into wider circulation a terminology that otherwise only a few people use. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

However, you will be able to find Barthians labelled this way (probably not by themselves, though). But then, I'm not sure that "neo-orthodox" is a self-label either; and, this other label is used in almost exactly the same way, with almost exactly the same meaning. The difference is, under neo-Calvinist I can put both, Kuyper (and the other Christian Reformed folks, including Rushdoony and his like) and Barth (with Torrance, et. al.). As a bonus, I can refer to those who split from the neo-calvinists (the Dutch self-labelled ones), like Hoeksema and Schilder, and in so doing cover a wide spectrum. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly tomorrow, for apart from him we can do nothing. Mkmcconn (Talk) 04:41, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-calvinism: Consensus terminology for Kuyperians

I haven't read anything by Torrance, so I'll defer to you all. I wouldn't have connected Kuyper and Barth as "Neo-Calvinists." The term, as far as I have heard, usually refers to "Kuyperians" (e.g., Van Til, Vollenhoven, Dooyeweerd, etc.). (Actually, I have also heard it used by a seminary prof to refer to what Calvinists sometimes call TRs -- the "truly Reformed" aka the hyper-conservative who question if Arminians are saved, etc.) Where have you seen Barth and Kuyper linked as such? I agree that Barth should be in there because he is considered "Reformed" by most non-Reformed folks (of course, his page should indicate that he's not a confessionalist, etc.), and I'd say Kuyper deserves a spot because of his influence in the Dutch Reformed circles, which have a significant standing in America also.

Perhaps we should change "Princeton theology" to "The Princetonians" or something since the the title is "People" rather than "Groups." I still think we need a Puritan representative, and I still think it should be John Owen. As for Sproul, I did mention him above, KHM03. :-P Regardless of our opinions, he's undoubtedly one of the most well-known Calvinists living today. (In light of the names on that list, however, I don't think he deserves a mention.) --Flex 16:06, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, since we have a "Princeton" group, a "Puritan" group would be appropo. Still think that Barth deserves mention...and that Sproul is a hack! KHM03 20:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

So much for being proud of your alma mater! --Flex 20:20, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Pgh Seminary's greatest success was Fred Rogers. What's so amazing to me is that Mister Rogers was a theological liberal. Also, he excelled at Biblical exegesis; the award given to graduates of PTS who are tops in the Bible courses is the Fred McFeely Rogers Award. At any rate, what a ministry he had.

Sproul, on the other hand, is a hack. His attacks on evangelical Christianity in the name of Calvinism (which is only a "subset" of evangelicalism) are painful and silly; he gives Calvinists a bad name...hyper-Calvinism gone crazy. It's every Calvinist's right to be incorrect :-) , but no Christian - Calvinist, Wesleyan, Catholic, etc. - has a right to be mean. And that's what Sproul is, more often than not. His tone toward other Christians is offensive...and not in a good way.

I hope and pray that Sproul is never lifted up as an exemplary Calvinist, because I believe that inherent to Calvinism is grace. Westminister got at least one thing wrong (actually, a lot of things...but I digress)...it started out with sin & depravity. Even the most faithful Presbyterians I know wish it had started with the grace of God instead, for that is the beginning of all things.

At any rate, I'm proud to be a PTS grad. Good school, and I was there at the right time. I had wanted to attend Asbury or Duke, but the Lord directed me to PTS, much to my dismay at the time. But at graduation, I could see God's hand at work and could see that he used PTS to challenge me and help me grow, and had actually used me to help PTS (I was president of Evangelical Student Fellowship - first UM to be that - and also of UM Student Fellowship, and was able to help a lot of Methodists be more Methodist and a lot of Calvinists to really explore what it was they were affirming, and a lot of liberals to really examine what they were all about, etc.). So, it's a good school with some really fine professors and I commend it to you, and announce that all you Presbys can be happy with it.

Except for R.C. Sproul! KHM03 22:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Flex, the only connection between Barth and Kuyper, et. al., is that some people sometimes call one or the other "neo-calvinist". They simply mean, "an updated intepretation of Calvin" (in the case of Barth), or "an updated interpretation of Calvinism" (in the case of the Dutch guys). It's sheer coincidence that the label is applied to both groups - no one means to imply that they are branches of the same thing. I suppose that's reason enough not to try to refer to both of them by the same link. Mkmcconn (Talk)

KHM03, perhaps instead of "People" we should be thinking in terms of theological streams, or types - as in Puritan, Princeton, Neo-orthodox? Mkmcconn (Talk) 22:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

That might not be a bad idea. Certainly, there should be a link to Calvin himself (top of template), and perhaps Beza (who is really "Calvin, Part II"), and maybe Edwards (the most significant non-European Calvinist), but perhaps the rest can be "grouped". And the three you suggest seem good to me. Maybe you could even have another one with "Contemporary figures", to keep it current, and not show it to be the outdated system that it is "out of touch". KHM03 11:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Neo-Calvinism could be too confusing since the term is used for such different movements. The streams of thought is a good idea, though in the end it might get too bulky. Maybe we could come up with a diagram like Image:Christian-lineage.png for the Reformed churches. (That could get really messy: Presbyterians do schism like Italians do pasta, someone once said.) --Flex 13:19, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't have to be too bulky. Beza, Edwards, Puritans, Princeton, Neo-Orthodox, and (if you feel it's necessary) Neo-Calvinists. That's all you'd need, really.

PS - I like the pasta analogy...very funny! KHM03 14:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The reason that schism is a scandal to the Reformed, is because unlike Baptists and many others, we have a doctrine condemning schism. The fact that we desire to be together makes our divisions funny. If we had a taste for split P's, nobody would be laughing when we so often choose them. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of above

If we group the people and movements under "Influential", that segment might look like this:

Influential   Prominent influences (Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:08, 20 July 2005 (UTC)) Theodore Beza + Synod of Dort  Puritan  Jonathan Edwards Princeton theology  Neo-Calvinism  Karl Barth  Neo-Orthodoxy

Does that about sum it up? Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but upon further consideration, you may even be able to eliminate Edwards (hate to even suggest that) if he's factored into the Puritans article (which I haven't looked at). KHM03 09:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. It seems to me like we should eliminate the people in the list altogether and restrict it to "Movements" or something like that (Beza and Synod of Dort might be better replaced by "Continental Reformed Theology" or something of the sort). Perhaps two lists are in order: people and movements, or is that overkill? Also, we could rename the template "Reformed theology" or something like that so as to include Zwingli et al. under "Continental." What about Christian Reconstructionism? --Flex 17:45, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

My recommendation is to keep it as "Calvinism", since that is a better known term than the oft-misunderstood "Reformed theology". Beza is certainly "continental", but I think every Calvinist on the planet has been influenced by him...moreso than more "precise" figures like Kuyper or even Barth. Didn't Beza help to really define the Calvinist system? I would think he's bigger than "Continental".

I don't know much about reconstructionism. Is it worthy of note? KHM03 17:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Beza's influence to me seems to be very much indirect today. It would certainly show up in the confessions and catechisms and canons of the Reformation era (and in textual criticism), but almost no one reads him today directly. For that reason, lumping him into "Continental theology" doesn't seem unfair to me. The term Reformed is often ambiguous, but it's the term we still tend to prefer to identify ourselves. --Flex 18:07, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Flex, I would rather keep the focus on Calvinism. "Reformed" is too big and blurry an idea - that's why we have "church movements" there. I understand what you're saying about Beza, but it's "historically responsible" to mention him prominently. As KHM03 advises, we should aim for the Letterman top 5 or 6. Reconstructionism definitely belongs under Neo-Calvinism (an article yet to be written, if you're interested). I'm feeling pretty settled on preferring "Influences" over "People" , "Movements", or geography - for reasons briefly discussed above, somewhere (as well as under #Boers and Magyars) Mkmcconn (Talk)

Ok. How about calling the section "Influential streams" or something like that. "Influential" alone (sola influentia?) doesn't express much. --Flex 19:42, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

"Influences" ? Mkmcconn (Talk) 20:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"Formative influences" ? Mkmcconn (Talk) 20:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"Notables"? "Noteworthies"? "Notable currents"? "Prominent shapers"? "Preeminent leaders"? Influences seems to me to indicate that the people/groups in question are not participants but outside influences. --Flex 20:49, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'm looking for a word that is neutral with regard to whether they are really "in" or "out". I may be in the OPC, but I have to acknowledge the influence of people like Barth, as much or more than of Machen or Van Til. Some do not think that Van Til is "in", and others don't think that Barth is "in". We don't need to decide that, if we call them both, "influences" - that is, supposedly Calvinistic influences on the development of Calvinism. "Prominent shapers" sounds like "people" to me - where "Prominent influences" might include schools of thought, or notable turning points. Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Van Til is strictly Calvinism; his influence outside that family is nil. Barth affected most Christians on earth (for good or for ill is debated). Doesn't that count for something? KHM03 22:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It counts, it counts :-) I think we've pretty much figured out how prominently Barth should be featured, as representative of Calvinism. Machen and Van Til are buried in Princeton, Van Til will show up again under neo-Calvinism. Barth, and H.Richard and Reinhold Niebuhr should be prominent in whatever the target is for representing the neo-orthodox interpretors of Calvin. But the question is, what do we put these all under? See my scratch example, at the top of this section. "Prominent influences" okay? Mkmcconn (Talk) 22:13, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

OK with me. KHM03 00:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm frustrated with the present state of the articles. I'm posting what I can, considering how unfinished the articles are, that they point to. Mkmcconn (Talk) 05:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me. What about adding Pilgrims to historical movements? They were a breed of Puritan, but they also had a profound effect on the shaping of America once they split off. I don't know much about the historical influence of the Boers or Magyars, but I've heard a lot more about the former than the latter. --Flex 12:38, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Go ahead. Mkmcconn (Talk) 14:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I just realized that I now have Puritan twice. Sorry. Mkmcconn (Talk) 14:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Boers and Magyars

Having inserted Huguenots should we add Boers and Hungarians? Or, is that a troublesome direction? Did I just answer my own question? Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Flex, you changed Boer to Afrikaner, with the note Boers to Afrikaners (the former is considered derogatory according to the article about it My strong impression is that it might also work the the other way around. Boers don't like the name, Afrikaner, much, when it's made to signify something different than Boer. "Boer" is one people and culture. "Afrikaner" embraces many peoples and cultures, and for that reason some who are proud of the the name "Afrikaner" don't want to be called "Boer". The Boers have the Calvinist history, the Afrikaners only have it insofar as they include the Boer people. Anyway, I might be exaggerating - a Dutch friend tells me that it sounds funny to call an entire people "farmers", "'hicks', as it were". So, I've used both links on the same line. Mkmcconn (Talk) 22:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Can we fit this quote in somewhere?

"Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better." - John Wesley to Francis Asbury

Let me know. Thanks. KHM03 23:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we add a heresy section? :-P --Flex 14:51, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Denominations

The Anglican/Episcopal/Methodist denominations each hold/held Calvinism to some degree at some point (e.g. Cranmer/Packer/Whitefield, respectively)? Should they have some representation in the template, perhaps under the denomination or historical section?

My opinion is "no", since in Methodism it's always been such a minority (like Arminians in Calvinism - - they exist, but no one likes to talk about them!), and the Anglican tradition is much bigger than one simple categorization, and prides itself on being a "middle road" between Protestantism and Catholicsm.

Bottom line: few look at Methodism or Anglicanism as Calvinist families. KHM03 20:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Then are we back to a heresy section? ;-) --Flex 20:35, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Institutes

Added the Institutes...how could we have forgotten that? The most important Calvinist document of them all? I felt stupid when it occurred to me. KHM03 14:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Width decisions

In Mozilla (and Firefox), the sans-serif font is a little wider than on MSIE. A few titles wrap at 9em, but are on one line at 11em. I thought that a good compromise was to make the template a little wider than it had to be (for MSIE). — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 16:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, good catch. (Long live Firefox!) --Flex 18:29, August 2, 2005 (UTC)