Talk:Calendar reform

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[edit] C&T Calendar

As a recent calendar-reform proposal, I thought this deserved mention. I just want to note that I am not Henry, this is not intended to be promotion or spam, it's just that the article is so stubby that adding a paragraph about a new proposal does sort of put it out of balance. But I don't see how to describe it in less than a paragraph... and I think that citing sources is important. If they look too link-spammy let me document them here for the record in case anyone decides they shouldn't all be in the article. I think the proposal is a bit nutty, by the way, and his page describing it contains some astonishingly flippant and dismissive remarks about possible objections. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:25, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In my quest for reform of the calendars, I have been attempting to update my arguments/thoughts since 1970-71 after my name got 'first time' in media print Via Tribune, Chandigarh (06 June 1971); and then as Time by Metric (Times of India, New Delhi (04 July 1971). Today, I stand in favour for *shifting a day from July (thereby making this month of 30 days; and adding this day gained into the month of February making this of 29 days in all Years* falling in line for my proposed Vij's Gregorian Rhyme Calendar 2005-2006 under discussion with Calndr-L group. Added advantage of this format is that NOT ONLY the four(4) quarters and two(2) half years can have 91-days or 13 weeks in each quarter ON KEEPING THE 365th day & 366th days of the year outside of the calendar format BUT *durations in each month follow the Kepler's Laws (unlike the C&T calendar or International Fixed Calendar). I evolve the period of 373632-years wherein the THREE cycles: 128-yr,(7*128=896-yr/159 Lwks)and the 834-yr_148 Lwks can be made use of/for the CIVIL calendar. 128-yr cycle gains over others by NOT MAKING any drastic change except that the CENTURIAN RULE gets modified from 100/400-yr "Leap Day Rule" to 128/896-yr for making the adjustment for leap day accounting. Luni-solar alignments are possible using (33,33,33,29)years or [(33,31)& (33,31)] i.e. 2*64-yr aligning using 19-year lunar cycle with 235 lunations - alongwith 'rationalised Tithi/ phases' of duartion 138*7-day/965th. Values for Mean Year and Mean Lunation are possibly the best 'comparable with any calendar'.

Brij Bhushan Vij (metricvij AT hotmail.com) 7 January 2005

This article should probably switch focus more to the idea behind calendar reform and there should be created an articles just for C&T

- Singpolyma 14:01, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

I think the calendar reform page should not discuss specific proposals as such. Instead, it should outline the concept of calendar reform and discuss the reasons why people feel its necessary. A history of calendar reform would be especially interesting, because it has a surprisingly rich history:

  • Julius Caesar reformed the ancient Roman calendar into what we now call the Julian calendar. The concept of 365-day years with one leap year every 4 years was imported from the Egyptian calendar.
  • Pope Gregory XIII? reformed the Julian calendar into the Gregorian calendar in 1582.
  • February 29 was only standardised as the official leap day in leap years a few years ago. Prior to that, the official leap day was February 24.
  • Calendar reform was seriously discussed at the League of Nations and the United Nations.

--B.d.mills 11:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have modified the page as described, and moved most of the calendar-specific discussion to a new page. --B.d.mills 10:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reformed Reform article

I felt the need to expand this page. Previously, it was stub-like, with a list attached, and said little about these proposals.

I agree with B.d.mills and others, above, that the original revisions of this article - i.e. the long, drawn out explanation of ONE proposal (C&T) - was not appropriate. However, going into the reform of the JULIAN calendar is also wrong, and I'm glad to see that didn't happen. That's done very well in the Gregorian calendar article.

As it stood, there were blanket statements made in the arrticle that do not apply to all calendar reform proposals. It pointed out the flaws of the calendars with "null" or "off-calendar" days, and pointed people in the direction of the 53-week calendar. That's not very complete, and its inaccurate because not all suggested calendars suffer from those flaws.

My revision hits on:

  • Perpetual calendar proposals and
  • 13-month calendar proposals

Each calendar proposal is BRIEFLY mentioned in the text, WITHOUT much elaboration, since that's done in the other articles. But it's an injustice to these proposals to have left this intro as is, since it said little about the reform movement, which has been - and is - quite active.

Comments welcomed, and bear in mind I am not criticizing previous editors in particular. This was a very well maintained short article. Nhprman 05:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering Years v. Reforming the Gregorian

Japanese Era calendar is simply an established naming system used in Japan, and is not a "reform" of the Gregorian calendar.

The Holocene calendar is a proposal to re-number the calendar from the Holocene epoch. Mention should be made of that proposal on that page. Nhprman 01:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I compromised and created a separate subcategory re: numbering the years, while I still say these are NOT specifically Gregorian calendar REFORMS, simply renumbering the current year (and in the case of the Japanese calendar, it is not a proposal, it is a FACT and has already been implemented, so it is unlike any of the other proposals. Even the Holocene is a legitimate proposal. Nhprman 17:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Earth Calendar - exceptions to leap year rule?

The "With exceptions" in the following sentence has been reverted and restored. Before it becomes a revert war, can someone lay out the exceptions, so it's clear what the answer is? -- Nhprman List 17:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"...The New Earth Calendar does likewise by adding a leap week once every 5 years with exceptions."

The exceptions are those years whose number is divisible by 40, but not 400. See New_Earth_Calendar#Leap_week_rule_and_New_Year 08:00 Karl Palmen

Thanks. - Nhprman List 17:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lede is wrong

Calendar reform is not just proposed changes to the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar was itself a reform -- and a reform of the Julian calendar, itself a reform. I'm adding some history. Goldfritha 17:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Western reforms?

Most reforms, all over the world, were to better synchronize the calendar with the actual year. Does anyone have any reference to substantiate the claim that only Western reforms were thus intended? Goldfritha 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is mainly about reform of the Gregorian calendar. Initially dealing with the reform of the Julian calendar into the Gregorian calendar to make its year (and Easter lunations) more accurate. Later reforms, which have been never carried out were intended to make the calendar easier to use, by simplifying the months and often by making every year start on the same day of week. One could add a section about reforms of non-Gregorian calendars, but such information may be better kept at the page of the calendar concerned, especially if the reform has been carried out. Karl 12:50 3 October 2006 UT
That this article is suffering from systemic bias is no reason to reinforce it. And most reforms of calendars have been carried out to make the calendar conform more closely to the year, so putting in "Western" is to falsely imply that non-Western reforms weren't carried out for that reason. Goldfritha 23:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I added "Western" because the reforms of the world's lunar and lunisolar calendars are not discussed here, and probably shouldn't be. There have been 50 to 100 reforms of the traditional Chinese calendar over 2500 years, all of which were intended to better fit the average lunar month and the average solar year, but every year differs from a solar year by many days because each year must have 12 or 13 lunar months. There have been at least four similar reforms of the lunisolar version of the Hindu calendar, all intended to make the average month a better match to the lunar month and to make the average year a better fit to the sidereal year. There have been reforms of the 'solar' version of the Hindu calendar which changed the distribution of the days in each month to better match the length of time that the Sun spends in each sidereal zodiacal sign. The same applies to the Buddhist calendar. The Islamic calendar was a reform of the preceding lunisolar calendar which utterly divorced it from the solar year. Not one of the many modern efforts to reform it is intended to make it conform to any solar year. — Joe Kress 06:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Which doesn't answer the question of whether "Western" is misleading.
It would be simpler for you to take that paragraph you just wrote here and put it into the article. That way we don't need to misled readers and your dislike of having a general reference to calendar reform in an article without a discussion of them will be satisfied.
As for the modern efforts -- that the article is suffering from systematic bias is no excuse for putting in more. More historical perspective would do this article good. Goldfritha 23:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, we could add most of that paragraph to a new section called Reform of Lunar and Lunisolar Calendars. Karl 10:00, 5 October 2006 UT.
Sounds good to me. Goldfritha 23:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Moved the paragraph and removed "Western". Goldfritha 21:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alienation

The months in this calendar totally lack any correlation with the lunar cycle, encouraging an alienation from Nature which was reinforced by other historical factors, and which has reached an extreme degree in the modern world.

Does anyone see a way to revise this into a neutral POV? Goldfritha 02:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

That's right. I created this new paragraph about our new Hermetic Lunar Week Calendar.Farazcole
Being bold, I am removing the offending paragraph. I didn't like it even when it was all that remained after removing the erroneous info about a lunisolar calendar before Julius Caesar. — Joe Kress 19:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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