Talk:Căluşari

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Contents 1 Origins 2 Origins. 2 3 Bulgarian dance 4 Căluşari refers to the dance or the dancers?

[edit] Origins

Dubious: some other sources say something different; also "horsemen" is a pretty unusual name for a fertility dance. Of course, sticks are always seen as a phallic symbol for those poisoned with Freudism, but they are a traditional weapon of carpathian shepherds. mikka (t) 18:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Please quote these sources, then perhaps they can be incorporated into this section. For what it's worth, the Calusari dancers themselves believe the dances to be both ancient and originating as good luck and fertility dances. PEHowland 19:15 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It does not means "horsemen", which is "călăraşi" or "călăreţi". "Căluş" here means a type of stick. It is indeed derived from "horse", as it used to be a stick that was used to keep the horse's mouth open. bogdan | ^Talk 19:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. An online romanian-english dictionary gives a meaning "pony" for "Călus". mikka (t) 20:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The diminutive, "little horse", "pony" is Căluţ or Căluşel. The DEX entry does not include a meaning of "little horse". bogdan | ^Talk 21:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

btw, what about Căluşeri (in Covurlui and in Târgu Mureş)?

Here's a good description: http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaDance/ritual_caluseri.htm but it does have the wrong meaning ("horsemen"). bogdan | ^Talk 19:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

When browsing for Ioan Căianu, I stumbled on Codex Caioni (Codex Cajoni). Are they related? If they are not there is a good chance that the oldest calusari records come from the Codex. Just please keep your eyes open. mikka (t) 20:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I googled and yes, the Codex was written by Căianu in 17th century. bogdan | ^Talk

I googled, and no, the codex was found in a monastery wall :-). Also, some pages say that Căianu wrote 3 volumes, other pages say that Codex was 2 volumes. Not everything Romanian in on net in detail yet, unfortunately. I guess someone has to read a paper book. mikka (t) 23:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origins. 2

Round 2:

Well; DEX entry says one meaning "Căluş" = "Numele unui dans popular". Hence Căluşar/Căluşari simply refers to "dancers of Căluş". Also, [1] says that Iacob Mureşan and Stefan Emilian in 1855 choreographed something, which was surprisingly readily reintroduced into folk traditions. So can it be that the name of the dance is kind of two-stage derivation? mikka (t) 00:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

<digression; may be ignored> Languages hide surprising histories. From my childhood I remember a story about the name of a small Russian river Chusovaya. One tribe named it "Chu", which is simply "river". It was conquered by a Turkic one, which would say "Chu River", or "Chu-su". An An Uralic tribe came, after learning the name they would say "Chuso River", or "Chusova". Then Russins came, heard "Chusova" and changed it into "Chusovaya", by back-formation, because in russian language "-va" is an abbreviated form of the common ending "-vaya" of adjectives in femnine gender. So when one says "Chusovaya River", this ultimately means "river-river-riverish river" :-) mikka (t) 00:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian dance

Can anyone find the actual spelling of "Kalushar/Kalushari" (this dance in Bulgaria)? --AdiJapan 11:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Căluşari refers to the dance or the dancers?

WHen I lived in Craiova I was told that Căluşarii was a refrence to the dancers themselves and that the dance was Căluşu or Căluşul. Was I misinfomrmed? If not we should probly update the article. Dalf | Talk 08:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, Căluşari is supposed to be a name of a group of persons (-ari suffix), derived from căluş the name of the dance, but sometimes the dance is also called "jocul căluşarilor" or "dansul căluşarilor". (i.e. "the dance of the Căluşari") bogdan 20:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

So the very first words of the article:

The căluşari (/kə.lu'ʃarʲ/) is a traditional Romanian folk dance

Are not strictly speaking correct. Should probbly read:

The căluşari (/kə.lu'ʃarʲ/) are traditional Romanian folk dancers

Though this will need to followed with something making it clear that it is not a specifc group but a generic term. Ayone want to take a stab at it, or should I? Dalf | Talk 22:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps: The căluşari (/kə.lu'ʃarʲ/) term describing ... its just the -uri and is verb disagreement really bugs me ;) Dalf | Talk 22:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I changed [2] it. Dalf | Talk 02:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)