Talk:César Chávez

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Contents 1 Robert Kennedy 2 Unverified Claim re: Chavez collaborating w/the INS 3 That's it? 4 Ambiguous sentence 5 death? 6 Chavez as immigration reformer 7 Hagiography 8 chavez article 9 Wikification 10 Proper tone and references 11 Speculation as to What César Chávez Would Think of the 2006 Protests 12 Source material? 13 US citizen? 14 timeline 15 Cesar Chavez category 16 Mixed Legacy of Cesar Chavez 17 Images 18 Mexican-American 19 Request for comment 20 November 2006 Request for Comment

[edit] Robert Kennedy

When I saw a PBS documentary about Chavez, there was a whole section about Kennedy and Chavez. I don't remember the details well enough to write about it here, but it might be good if someone fleshed out the Chavez/Kennedy connection (which is currently only a clause in a sentence). Aroundthewayboy 19:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified Claim re: Chavez collaborating w/the INS

"Chavez and the UFW would often report suspected illegals who served as strikebreakers or who refused to unionize to the INS."

Can anyone verify this? It runs contrary to what I've read about Chavez, but I've never read a specific refutation of it. If no one can verify this in a week, I'm deleting it from the page. Danspalding 08:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• You can get some verification from the 2/27/06 issue of "The American Conservative," and of his anti-illegal immigration stance as late as 1979 (congressional testimony. The article also refers to a march to the border led by Chavez in 1969, protesting illegal immigration, and states that:

[The UFW picketed INS offices to demand closure of the border. Chavez also finked on illegal alien scabs to la migra. Columnist Ruben Navarrette Jr. reported in the Arizona Republic, “Cesar Chavez, a labor leader intent on protecting union membership, was as effective a surrogate for the INS as ever existed. Indeed, Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union he headed routinely reported, to the INS, for deportation, suspected illegal immigrants who served as strikebreakers or refused to unionize.”] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.131.222.25 (talk • contribs).

[edit] That's it?

Cesar Chavez is the most important Latino leader in the United States history. He was raised on many farms due to the change in harvests. He learned to become a civil rights activist from his mother and father. His mother taught him to start caring for other people. His father taught him the value of hard work. Later he started the United Farm Workers and he gave ways for farm workers to get a raise and earn minimum wage. -—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.109.99.18 (talk • contribs). -—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.196.22 (talk • contribs).

Non-violent 66.109.99.18 22:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey! How many of these people who praise Cesar really knew him. I was also a farm laborer, in some of the areas that Cesar controlled. It's been a long time, and I'm pretty old now, but I remember Cesar! Tell me, what does the phrase, "non-violent" mean? Praise Cesar? Me? Never! C'mon, this guy is way more important than this. He deserves this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.79.252 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ambiguous sentence

I think the sentence below is strangely written, and the result is confusion for the reader. Denver is the capital of Colorado -- why include a city in a list of states? Why not remove the phrase "as does Denver"?

Article excerpt:

Texas also recognizes the day, as does Denver, and in Arizona and Colorado it is an optional holiday. The holiday is the first in the history of the United States for a Mexican American and a labor leader. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Timbeauz (talk • contribs).

• He left school in the eighteenth grade?! WTF?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.152.218.157 (talk • contribs).

• • it was 8th —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.137.137.171 (talk • contribs).

• I believe the city of Denver is specifically mentioned because Denver made Cesar Chavez a full holiday - city services are closed, etc. See [1]. On the other hand, the state of Colorado made Cesar Chavez day an optional holiday; state employees may exchange that day for another holiday vacation day. http://www.hrs.colostate.edu/benefits/news-chavez.html Danspalding 22:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] death?

How did he die? Kingturtle 16:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC) How did Cesar Chavez die and of what cause? Template:Uunsigned

Lots of discussion about this. Died from natural causes, but many other possibilites including malnutrition or poison are discussed. Jjinfoothills 04:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez as immigration reformer

Chavez fought nobly for many years against illegal immigration. I'm working on an addition reflecting his service in this area. 68.173.214.197 03:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Please give us references to support this claim. Danspalding 08:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Chavez fought constantly against undocumented immigrants. He frequently complained that the Immigration & Naturalization Service wasn't tough enough. When Chavez would lead a strike, the grower would send trucks across the Mexican border, load them up with scabs, and race back to the Central Valley in the dead of night. Chavez even offered his UFW staffers to the INS to serve as volunteer border guards to keep Mexicans from sneaking into California. As Ruben Navarrette Jr. reported in the Arizona Republic: (8/31/97)

"Cesar Chavez, a labor leader intent on protecting union membership, was as effective a surrogate for the INS as ever existed. Indeed, Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union he headed routinely reported, to the INS, for deportation, suspected illegal immigrants who served as strikebreakers or refused to unionize."

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/la_causa_or_la_raza.htm

Wheatabix 13:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes I would really like to see this updated to reflect his views on immigration, as he is being improperly co-opted for things he was against. Especially with the current cimate on immigration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aft lizard01 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Hagiography

This article is absurdly hagiographic. "He learned about justice or rather injustice early in his life." Aww. "In 1944 he joined the Navy at the age of seventeen. He served two years and in addition to discrimination, he experienced strict regimentation." Everyone who joins the Navy at any age experiences strict regimentation. I suggest that this paean of praise be edited down to an encyclopedia article. ➥the Epopt 03:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

"To criticize is to volunteer." Nevertheless, the entire first section of this article is lifted, verbatim, from ... well, it's hard to say who was first, since there are so many copies of it on the net. I guess we can "blame" www.ufw.org -- it has one. But go to www.google.com and enter (with quotes) "He learned about justice or rather injustice early in his life."; someone has to hold a copyright to that text, and it's probably not wikipedia... mdf 02:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] chavez article

The article must be cleaned up. In particular the sentence structure and word choice need to be improved because, as it is right now, it has as much flow as a river of molasses.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.202.68.44 (talk • contribs).

I started off but man it's tedious. It's like editing a 4th grader's essay. I'd continue if I were more motivated. Someone else should do it. Sirkeg 21:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification

Regarding Wikification: there is no need to wikify every word on a page, such as articles ("a", "the"). Please see the Manual of Style for further assistance. Isopropyl 06:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

There are many remarks that say that Cesar Chavez isn't "white", while he clearly is so. He certainly isn't black, nor yellow(asian) or even red(native american). The only suitable race for him to be sorted in is being white. On that same subject, the prejudice against him isn't of racial origin, but rather of cultural or national origin. --Andrelvis 16:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever happened to brown? My understanding is that his background is latin american indian and probably some spanish. Jjinfoothills 04:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I have read that he did identify greatly with his indigeous heritage though he probably would have considered himself "mestizo". I have no clue as to whether "mestizo" is equivalent to "white", though personally I would say no.--Jbluex 06:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proper tone and references

There is a section of the article that uses sentences beginning with "He remembers ... He also remembers ..." These need to be reworded. The present tense "remembers" does not seem appropriate for someone who is dead. I will try to work on this and other problems in the article, but it is made more difficult by the fact that there are no in-line references used, and the fact that I don't have the primary references in my possession. If someone has the original references, please put them inline to the article so that we can see what reference supports what fact. Johntex\^talk 16:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation as to What César Chávez Would Think of the 2006 Protests

"In 2006, as César Chávez Day approaches, some Southern California schools are experiencing truancy problems due to students leaving class to protest pending legislation in the United States Congress that seeks to reduce illegal immigration. Protests are expected to continue during César Chávez Day celebrations." - Perhaps move it to something like an illegal immigaration in the US article. 168.166.196.40 17:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right. In addition to being completely speculative as to what the subject would have thought of these rallies 13 years after his death, the characterizations of students demonstrating as a "truancy problem" for the schools and of the pending House bill are POV. I've deleted it. 67.175.162.238 05:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source material?

It looks like one of the original sources of information in this article is given by the opening sentence of the article (which I have since deleted) read "According to the United Farmworkers web site, from which this information is mostly plagiarized, Cesar Estrada Chavez, named for his grandfather..." This probably explains the incorrect tenses and other problems, since the website bio probably wasn't encyclopedic. Vter4life 22:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US citizen?

Did he ever become a LEGAL US Citizen?

any souces on this? Template:Uunsigned 03:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• If he was born in Yuma, he was a citizen by birth according to US law.--Rockero 21:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] timeline

I apologize for leaving it unfinished and messy. Will resume work soon. Anyone who understands Easytimeline code better than I is welcome to fix it. --Allen Riddell 15:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cesar Chavez category

I think that Cesar Chavez is a notable enough person to warrant a category of his own. I suggest starting Category:Cesar Chavez. -- Andrew Parodi 21:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

A person should only get a category if there are enough articles to populate it, not if they themselves are notable. I see you already made the cat, but beware that it might get deleted.--Rockero 21:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mixed Legacy of Cesar Chavez

While there is little doubt in my mind that Cesar Chavez was a brilliant labor leader, whose signal achievement of building the UFW should be both celebrated and studied -- he deserves a holiday -- such recognition should not blind us to a person's failings, and I do not refer here to petty personal sins. I refer to the fact that Cesar Chavez, after inspiring and organizing the UFW to become a powerful union, proceded to wreck that once powerful organization. In 1978, Cesar Chavez introduced the "Synanon Game" into the internal deliberations of his union. The S.G. was essentially a mind game that involved people mercilessly attacking non-conforming members of a group. It was invented by Charles Dederich, the founder of the drug rehab cult, Synanon. Long-time organizers were forced out, and the business of building and strengthening the union was neglected. Today, the UFW is a shadow of it's former self, with about 4000 members. For a more detailed discussion of the negative side of Chavez's legacy, I refer you to the Los Angeles Times, January 8 through 11, 2006. These articles don't make it clear why Chavez did this. I know most people would rather just remember him as a labor saint, but we do no one any favors by whitewashing history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.131.211.243 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Images

• http://www.masscouncilofchurches.org/images/cent/medium_1973_UFW_Cesar.jpg
• http://www.masscouncilofchurches.org/centennial_07.html

--evrik 15:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mexican-American

I couldn't help but notice an edit war caused by stating CHavez is a Mexican-American. What is the issue? It is not POV, it is fact. Even the library of congress refers to him as such: http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/aa/chavez

Is this really that big of an issue? I know wikipedia allows the inclusion fo anything relevant to a person. It seems unquestionable that Chavez's mexican heritage is relevant to his accomplishments. It seems as if one poster wants to assume bad faith, without explainingn himself. So please explain yourself. Why is this issue so important that you committed an edit war, and violated 3RR? 152.163.101.7 16:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree! Mexican-American seems an appropriate heritage to assign to him.

Please would those who disagree please speak up so that we can get your side of the argument?

LittleOldMe 19:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment

I have joined this discussion as a third party in an attempt to resolve a dispute.

The dispute is over whether an edit by a known vandal should be allowed to stand. The edit was to assign a hereditary label of Mexican American to César Chávez.

LittleOldMe 21:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute

• Against - Because the IP is used by a known vandal the edit must be reverted.
• For - Despite the vandalism from the IP, the edit was good and should be allowed to stand.

Comment

• RFC Response: IP addresses may be used by different users than they formerly were, or a vandal could reform. That isn't a real issue in my eyes. A real problem is that the article now reads (in the "Early Life" section) "According to the United Farm Workers web site, as a young Mexican American growing up in Arizona,", and cites the UFW page on him. But the UFW page does not use the word "Mexican" anywhere. Accordingly, the label of Mexican American is falsely attributed in its current incarnation, so needs to be changed. The label is used on the Library of Congress page, which is a reliable source. So the label can be in the article, but it can't be in a sentence that begins "According to the United Farm Workers web site,". The use in the introduction is non-problematic, and can be sourced to a reliable source if anyone wants to go to the effort. GRBerry 21:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
• There have been repeated attempts by (apparently) various users to revise the wiki policy manual (always in the same poorly-written phraseology) to "allow" race and sexual orientation to be cited in the opening paragraph. That's what this is about. Wahkeenah 23:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats great. So what does that have to do with this edit, or your need to start an edit war? Is mexican-american a term for sexual orientation, or race? As far as I understand it, the term "mexican american" is an ethnonym for people with strong ties to both the United States of America and Mexico. It is commonly used to describe Chavez, and is a far more accurate descriptor for his national origin, based at least partially on his dual citizenship. Valid sources have been given that use the term.

Your best response has been that it was done by a vandal, or someone that made edits to policy that you disagree with. However, that has little, if anything, to do with this edit. A viable non-POV source has been cited. You have given no real rational for the substitution--see above posters comments. 67.162.212.254 00:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

At the admin's advice, I am going to let the admin handle you instead of Dcflyer and I trying to do it on our own. Wahkeenah 00:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• As Wahkeenah stated, an editor had previously made repeated changes to the guidelines under Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) without talk page discussion or consensus. The edits all focused on sexual orientation and race/ethnicity. The editor then used these edits to back up his/her changes to Lance Bass, Rosie O'Donnell, Ellen DeGeneres, César Chávez, and a few others. This is described here. The edits were made in apparent coordination by Cliesthenes and numerous associated anon IPs, e.g., 67.162.212.254, see here. The changes to the articles mentioned were to include sexual orientation, race, or ethnicity in the opening sentences of the biographies. Was this an attempt to define the person by his/her sexual orientation, race, or ethnicity? Some consensus was reached on the Lance Bass page that this was the case. See here and here. The United Farm Workers of America website simply states that "César grew up in Arizona...," so this article is incorrect as far as the statement "[a]ccording to the United Farm Workers web site, as a young Mexican American growing up in Arizona..." I will remove this incorrect sentence. I will have no problem if consensus determines that the description "Mexican-American" should be added to this article and if so, in what manner. The edit histories have left a long trail indicating non-consensus changes and POV pushing by an "editor" and his/her sockpuppets.-- Dcflyer 05:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the UFW comment; if the UFW didn't say that, then that attribution to the UFW should be removed. My own impression as an outsider coming here from the RFC is that "Mexican-American" is as relevant to "César Chávez" as "African American" is to "Martin Luther King, Jr.": Chávez' life work was dedicated to improving conditions for Mexican-American farm workers. For this reason, maybe there should be some mention of this in the article's opening (however I note that MLK's race is not mentioned in the opening of his article). By contrast, I would not say the same about some of the entertainers just cited above by Dcflyer; their sexuality may be one aspect of their public lives, but it's not the primary reason they have Wikipedia articles. We may flinch using an edit by someone we often see POV-pushing and abusing Wiki-community norms, but if once in a while they leave behind something useful, let's keep it. --A. B. 12:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Cliesthenes and its sockpuppets had also tried pushing for including MLK's race in the opening paragraph. This debate has been going on for awhile. It's related to some users trying to push that some well-known person was Catholic, Jewish, or whatever, in the opening paragraph, which adds up to "labeling" them. In the case of MLK and Chavez, or anyone who belongs to a specific religion, is it really true that they were "known" for being members of some ethnic group or religion? Yes, it is... to racists. Wahkeenah 12:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Cliesthenes appears to be connected to confirmed and banned sockpuppet HollyWolly; see this edit, as well as [2]. Seperately, see these edits: [3][4](Anne Heche and Malcom X) -- Dcflyer 12:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• If there is concern as to the labels that are ascribed to individuals, perhaps articles should not mention the nationality at all. As an outsider in every sense, (being a South African living in Ireland who has not been involved in the preceding debates) I am not privy to the subtleties of nationality debates in the US, however, I have seen first hand how relationships can be damaged when one side is allowed to claim an outstanding individual as their own. Surely as Americans claiming to inhabit "the land of the free and the home of the brave" you should be able to display the courage to share your heroes. LittleOldMe 13:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • To a significant number of people in America (specifically, white supremacists and people who hate labor unions), both Cesar Chavez and MLK are "villains", not "heroes", and emphasizing their ethnic group in the header reinforces that viewpoint. Wahkeenah 14:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • My reading of the situation, based on the edit trends for Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), is that the editor was attempting to justify his/her labeling of "homosexual" or "lesbian" to several individuals by pointing out that individuals of various ethnicities were "already" labeled in a similar manner. And echoing what Wahkeenah said, the editor got the side benefit of calling these people "out" as well, in the figurative sense. Also, in the U.S., bigots have always loved to point out "black" or "Mexican" as a way of saying that the person is not a "true" or "real" American. -- Dcflyer 15:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Therein lies the trouble. Cliesthenes and its sockpuppets were pushing for this supposedly on innocent grounds. But such labeling could be for "bigotry" purposes, or it could be the opposite, for "proudly" labeling, for "inclusion" or whatever you want to call it. Either way, it's labeling, hence it's POV-pushing, and that was my argument from the get-go. Wahkeenah 17:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
        • I feel another "soap box" moment looming, so here goes! We all wear labels whether we like it or not. Personally I think that both César Chávez and Martin Luther King would have been proud to wear their ethnic labels. Also, I do not understand how someone's ethnicity is a "point of view". Either he has African or Mexican roots or not. If you say he appears to be of Mexican origin, that is POV; stating that he is Mexican American is stating a fact (that can be attributed to a reliable source). Wikipedia often states facts that people do not like or are uncomfortable with. Many would want censoring, and edit out swearing or explicit descriptions accordingly. We Wikipedians restore the deleted text, despite their discomfort. In the same way we should be able to state someone's ethnicity clearly without fear of individuals being offended. I do not believe that Wikipedia should pander to bigots, zealots, racists or any other type of 'ist. LittleOldMe 18:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
          • The problem is that this approach singles out certain individuals. If you stated everyone's ethnicity in the opening paragraph, that would be another thing: "George W. Bush is a white male American". No. It's POV-pushing to single out individuals ethnicity in the opening paragraph, no matter what the reason is. The details of the biography explain all that, so there is no censorship. Wahkeenah 18:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have no problem with that approach, except that Chávez is being labelled in the opening paragraph, as an "American". This, by your own definition, is POV-pushing. I agree, remove nationality/ethnicity from the opening paragraph. Rather mention his place of birth in the opening paragraph and discuss heredity and nationality in subsequent paragraphs. Some (imperfect) examples of this approach are:

1. Zola Budd - her switch to British citizenship caused huge controversy and was very contentious.
2. Ian Brady - the statement "notorious Scottish serial killer" seems designed to play upon the English/Scottish rift.
3. Peter Hain - is far more famous for his contributions to the Northern Ireland peace process than for any anti-apartheid activism.

The more biographies I review the more I tend to agree with Wahkeenah and Dcflyer that nationality and ethnicity can be used in the opening paragraph to set the tone for the entire article. First impressions really do count! LittleOldMe 13:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Except we are saying ethnicity should NOT be used there, so I'm not sure what you're saying. I gather that nationality is acceptable, but I think that's more neutral, like "John Wayne was an American actor". If there is a consistent approach, it would be OK. As it is, ethnicity is not consistent, and thus ends up being "singled out". It might be POV-pushing to say John Wayne is "American", because some people hate America, but it might also be POV-pushing to say he's an actor, because some people hate actors! I'm not sure why qualifying "actor" with "American" is necessary, but it seems to be considered acceptable. Emphasizing race and sexual orientation, though, are blatant labeling. Wahkeenah 17:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • LittleOldMe, I agree with you on this issue. It is not POV to say Chavez is a Mexican-American. It also doesn't single him out. The primary argument against the edit seems to be that his mexican heritage somehow detracts from him. This does not seem to be a viable argument. First, you assume there is a negative connotation to being from a mexican heritage. To assume some people might view this in a negative light ignores the reality that any statement on a page can be looked at in a negative light by a person. The fact you list Chavez as an American will cause some people to look at him in a negative light. The same issue occurs with him being a union leader (people are against the union). Second, you ignore the fact far more reliable sources, dealing with far greater issues of a need for nuetrality have "labeled" him as a Mexican American. If the library of Congress can refer to him as a mexican american, why not wikipedia? The library of Congress is a reliable source, and not POV. It seems to me that the exclusion seems to be POV, in that it is pushing an unkown agenda. I don't know what the agenda is. Third, didn't Cesar Chavez in "Cesar Chavez: Autobiography of La Causa" describe himself as a "mexican american working to help other mexican americans." He had duel citizenship (both USA and Mexico). Doesn't any of this matter? These are facts, not POV.
      • The above unsigned IP address user is on the same subnet that has been identified as one of Cliesthenes' sockpuppets, and is written in a similar style to that of Cliesthenes. Wahkeenah 23:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Wahkeenah, I do not think that this should be an issue, Cliesthenes' opinion should carry as much weight as anyone else's. It would only be sock puppetry if Cliesthenes offered opinions both under the user name and anonymously, or from multiple IP addresses, in order to add weight to their side of the argument. LittleOldMe 13:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Technically, Cliesthenes' anonymous connections and fake users are "meatpuppets", trying to change the wiki guidelines to support stuff it wants to do... such as the POV-pushing described earlier. Wahkeenah 14:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Even though the edit may have been made by a user with a questionable track record, I see nothing inaccurate or biased about describing Chávez as Mexican-American. In addition to other good reasons stated above (dual citizenship, autobiographical self-description) where I live in California it's fairly common to see streets named after him in Mexican-American neighborhoods. This particular edit appears uncontroversial. Durova 03:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• It's not that it's factually inaccurate, it's that it's purposeful labeling in the opening paragraph for the goal of pushing a point of view, which is why the biography manual of style opposes it, and which that one user was altering expressly for the purpose of pushing that point of view. Wahkeenah 03:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Then move it lower in the article. I see nothing inappropriate about stating this fact somewhere and within the context of the history of California agriculture the page would probably be incomplete without this information. Durova 01:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

That would put it in the context of explaining his background and interest in the Mexican laborer, as opposed to merely labeling him; so, as I understand it, would be appropriate in that circumstance. Wahkeenah 02:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems like Chávez is an exception to the issue raised. Since it was stated above that Chávez had dual Mexican and U.S. citizenship, it would be appropriate for him to be referred to as Mexican-American, in the lead sentence. This is in line with the guideline of using nationality in the opening sentence, and is applied uniformly. The real issue is if ethnicity, race, religion, and/or sexual orientation should be included in the lead sentence or paragraph, as well. There is no "censorship" because the ethnicity, race, religion, and/or sexual orientation are [and should be] stated or discussed in the biographies in question. The problem is that they are stated in the lead only for members of "minority" groups. George W. Bush is described as an American, not a white/Caucasian/Anglo/British American. Is it not labeling or POV that certain individuals are described in the lead as Italian-American, gay American, African-Canadian, or Asian-British, while others are simply described as American, Canadian, or British? Maybe this discussion should be continued or moved to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Further_discussion_about_ethnicity.2C_race.2C_religion.2C_and.2For_sexual_orientation_being_included_in_the_lead_sentence. -- Dcflyer 04:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A totally random example is the article on David Reimer. He is categorized with Category:German Canadians. However, the lead sentence describes him as [only] a Canadian man. -- Dcflyer 09:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] November 2006 Request for Comment

The above RfC didn't settle the article. So someone raised another. This section is for responses to the November RfC. I added the break because I thought it would be helpful. GRBerry 21:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I see that the erroneous inclusion (because it was not in the then specified source) that I objected to previously is gone. Thanks to whomever did that.

I think most people know that he was Mexican American, and the fact certainly could be reliably sourced. I believe that he is better known as union organizer/leader than an ethnic rights leader. So the union role should definitely predominate in the article. This may well mean that the ethnicity does not belong in the lead. (This point differs from what I said last time.) However, it might be appropriate to add a short paragraph about his influence upon Latinos to the Legacy section, in which it would be natural to mention his ethnicity. This paragraph, would, of course, need to meet the usual standards for sourcing. GRBerry 21:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Putting race or sexual orientation in the opening paragraph is against policy. It's labeling. It promotes bigotry. Would you start George Bush's bio with "G.W. is a white guy"? No, I didn't think so. Wahkeenah 00:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Are you serious? This is the type of rational that makes me not want to use wikipedia. The article uses the term mexican merican to describe Chavez numerous times. Yet you seem to think it is racist to use it in the opening? You can't have the cake and eat it too. He is either one or the other. You seem to have no probelm with the rest of the article.
  • Furthermore, you claim that there is a mexican race? The correct term to describe the "mexican race" is chicano, or latino. The phrase mexican-american is not a racial categorization. It does not describe sexual orientation. It describes people with strong ties to both the United States of America and Mexico. A racial qualifier is not the basis (unless you are a racist). I assume you are not a racist. The fact is the article deserves some mention of Chavez's mexican heritage at the start of the article. As it reads now, he is littlemore than a union leader. Yet he is looked at as much more than that today. He is currently viewed as one fo the greatest civil rights leaders for mexican americans in history. Yet, you seem unwilling to acknowledge due to the guise of avoiding racism.
  • Instead you use the disingenuous comparison between George Bush and Cesar Chavez by stating Bush's article does not contain the phrase "white." As stated previously, mexican american is not a racial descriptor. A white, black, etc. can be a mexican american just as easily as any chicano. Would you rather stereotype? This is what you seem to be doing.
  • I want to make some mention of his aid to mexican americans in the beginning of the article. Since you seem to veto any idea on this thread that you disagree with, what would--YOU PERSONALLY--find acceptable? (It is a sad day when wikipedia has devolved to having to ask this question).
  • Secondly, what is the problem with me editing the grammatical errors in the article? Is adding a period and making some formating standard also considered racist by yourself? CraigMonroe 13:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • You need to study some of the recent debates about this, and maybe you'll understand the issue. Ethnic labeling of any kind in the opening paragraph is against wiki policy because it is not done uniformly, only arbitrarily, thus it is a combination of POV-pushing and inviting bigotry. Saying someone is known for their race or ethnic group or sexual orientation is patently offensive. Would you say "MLK was known for being black?" Well, the people who called him "Martin Lucifer King" certainly would say so. And those who hate GWB would agree that it's just find to say "Bush is a white male". Do you see what I'm getting at? Meanwhile, I reverted again, because you took away the USA on American, which caused it to go to a disambiguation page, and you also posted spelling and capitalization errors and took away the metric units. Try again. You're getting closer to acceptability. Wahkeenah 14:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
      • How about this. I'll revert. You fix the errors. Isn't that how it works? A editor makes an edit. Another editor improves it. Its not like there is much work. Also, the metric unit is not used uniformly. In one spot it is used, and in the next sentence it is not. I say get rid of it, or add it to each figure. However, I don't care to add it to each figure (too much time).CraigMonroe 14:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I think it's looking pretty good now. Wahkeenah 18:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)