Talk:Cádiz

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It is regarded as the most ancient still existing city in the western Mediterranean.

Is this correct? Normally one thinks of the strait of Gibraltar as separating the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean. And Cadiz is situated west of Gibraltar.

Sebastjan

The map in the Spain article certainly shows it clearly as being in the North Atlantic. In any case, I would dispute the description of it as the "most ancient". Deb 11:08 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Following on from this, stating that Cadiz is the oldest city in Europe is simply false. The article gives a founding date of 1200BC, which is not very ancient. Take the following from the article on Athens, for example:

"The history of Athens is the longest of any city in Europe: Athens has been continuously inhabited for at least 3,000 years" and "The Acropolis of Athens was inhabited from Neolithic times." Neolithic, i.e. stone age!

Or take into account information from the article on Korinthos in Greece: "The city was founded in the Neolithic Age, circa 6000 BC."

Don't get me wrong, Cadiz is a beautiful city with a lot of history, but it certainly isn't the oldest city in Europe :)

The article says "in Western Europe", Greece is south-east Europe.

--Alesis69 02:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

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I heard that the fact that the Greek and Roman names (Gadeira and Gades) are plural point to being several nuclei.--Error 01:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Nickname 2 Date of Christopher Columbus's 2nd journey from Cadiz 3 Name 4 Cadiz: Ithaca 5 Numismatics?

[edit] Nickname

The city of Cádiz is usually refered as "la tacita de plata" (the little silver cup). Can this be considered a nickname? --surueña 08:41, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it can. Cádiz is usually named in that way and "Cái" as well, but that second name is more referred to Cádiz people's pronunciation than a real nickname. --Peejayem 08:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Christopher Columbus's 2nd journey from Cadiz

The Cadiz page said 1495, but the Christopher Columbus page said 1493. I've made the bold assumption that more people would be checking the accuracy of the Columbus page, and changed the Cadiz page to 1493.

[edit] Name

Why is this page under Cádiz and not the more common English spelling of Cadiz? Possibly the four most common usages for the city in English documents are Christopher Columbus setting sail for the new world, Drake's singing of the king of Spain's beard, the fleet that sailed to its doom at Trafalgar, and Wellington's Siege of Cadiz. The final usage would be modern usage as a travel destination but even under that the word is usually spelt Cadiz --Philip Baird Shearer 00:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Because Cadiz is incorrect. "Cadiz" puts the accent on the second syllable when pronounced in Spanish. The accent must be retained to make the pronunciation accurate. The name is CAH-diz, not ca-DEEZ. -Scm83x 00:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "incorrect" in English there is only usage. Besides most native English speakers ignore funny foreign squiggles over letters even when they are present. The spelling of a name in English often has little to do with how it pronounced. For example Southwark, Worcester and Mousehole. I think that first line of the article should start "Cadiz (Spanish:Cádiz)" which would be more informative than the current introduction and cover your point --Philip Baird Shearer 01:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

First, we should remember that there still exists a redirect to Cádiz from Cadiz, which is a similar custom for most article titles including accents. It's convention on Wikipedia to list the actual name of the location in Spanish - see Málaga, Ciudad Juárez, Michoacán, and Nuevo León, to name a few. When I spent a few months in Cádiz this past summer, I noticed that all English-speakers, whether American or British, tended to pronounce Cádiz without the accent. Spanish word pronunciation is often butchered; for example, here in Austin, Texas, we pronounce the local street Guadalupe as "Gwa-dah-loop," with the emphasis on the first syllable, and a very American, hard "d" sound. Therein lies the dilemma, which I'm glad you brought up, as I hadn't even thought of it before.

Looking at other languages, we still see traces of this problem. In articles dealing with Russia, for example, of course we refer to the Federal Assembly of Russia like I just did, rather than as Федеральное Собрание. We rarely, if ever, see articles that keep the Cyrillic spellings. On the other hand, when we have articles in languages that keep the same, or at least a similar, alphabet, we often preserve the original spellings. For example, in Romanian articles (a Romance language), we see Traian Băsescu. I'll admit that I don't even know that the thing above the 'a' is called, so I probably wouldn't be quick to include it when I'm writing his name.

Technically, according to the Wikipedia manual of style, all foreign words should be italicized, i.e., Cádiz. On the other hand, words that have passed into English should not be, i.e., Cadiz. However, it's difficult to determine whether a Spanish place name has fallen into English usage. For example, in the United States, we never refer to Mexico City (no accent) as México D.F. In another case, some place like Nuevo León will often be pronounced correctly, though people tend to forget to write accents. Finally, for a place like Yucatán, pretty much everyone butchers both pronunciation and spelling.

It seems mostly like a debate about whether the Spanish place name has fallen into common usage in the English language. This, of course, varies widely among English-speakers themselves; many Texans may vacation in the Anglicized Spanish place-names in the Southwest U.S., while British citizens more often holiday in Spain itself, and everybody pronounces it differently - presenting the still unresolved issue between whether we should following American or British conventions.

As a result, I'd vote to keep the Cádiz article as it is, or be ready to toe the line between Anglicized and non-Anglicized and prepare to overhaul our entire collection of articles with foreign people and place names. It's not a matter of "correct pronounciation," but, rather, simply to what degree we need to preserve foreign spellings. Perhaps we include the foreign spelling unless we simply can't read it? I can't give a straight answer. -Rebelguys2 03:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Just because Spanish and English use the Latin alphabet doesn't mean that articles should have a Spanish title. Would you have an article titled "北京" and have "Beijing" redirect to that? If you follow the example on other language wikipedias, especially non-latin alphabets languages, you will see that the article name should be Cadiz, and the first line of the text should be:

Cadiz (Spanish: Cádiz) is a coastal city in...

and the name of the city above the infobox should be be Cadiz, Spain, or at least, keeping in line with Spanish usage, be Cádiz, España?

218.102.71.16 11:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point. However, Wikipedia is currently unstandardized when it comes to this subject; I'd leave things be and bring it up through an official channel. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 22:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Cádiz, España is fine for the Spanish version of Wikipedia but in English it won't work. E Jaffe 13:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Cádiz is simply wrong in English. Not only is the á not an English letter but the stress in English is on the i. --Henrygb 18:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cadiz: Ithaca

Homer describes Ithaca as "amphialos" which means: "with a sea on each side"; A perfect description for a place between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.

Also, the situation described by Homer perfectly matches with how this region was 3200 years ago: the Guadalete delta not yet turned into land and Ithaca being the most westerly situated island but yet closest to the mainland. You can find a map on page 137 of Iman Wilkens latest book; the 2005 edition.

Furthermore, there are other places in the region that sound Homeric: Gerena (pronounced Gerenia) (Nestor!) Pylos, now Pilas, Sparta, now Esparteros mountain, Sidon, now Medina Sidonia (town of Sidon).

212.123.163.102 07:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• I suppose the average Wikipedia reader also deciphers "Eratosth. ap. Steph. B. s. v." as "(lost work of) Eratosthenes as quoted by Stephanus of Byzantium, under the entry for Gadeira" just as we all do... --Wetman 18:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC):

I have no idea what are those historical names foing in the intro section. They should be moved to a more suitable location, further down, in my opinion. --Asterion^talk 19:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numismatics?

Pardon me, but I don't see exactly how this articel is related to the subject or why that thing is on top of the talk page. 68.39.174.238 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)