Talk:Buyeo (state)

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would anyone mind if i renamed this article Buyeo (Korean history)? it seems more commonly known by the Korean transliteration (formerly Puyo, now Buyeo), & most links to the article are from korean history articles. it is arguably also manchurian history, so i would like some feedback. Appleby 22:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

from googling, i think "fuyu" will eventually need to become a disambiguation page, fuyu county of jilin province, fuyu persimmon, fuyu/buyeo (state), & must also mean something in japanese. Appleby 23:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Appleby - Fuyu needs a disambiguation page. Top 10 pages listed for a google search on "FUYU" pertains to FUYU persimmon, Fuyu Corporation, and Fuyu Hardware Ltd. Fuyu is hardly used (even by Chinese authorities) for Chinese variant on Buyeo. IF I muster up enough time, i'll work on it. Deiaemeth 04:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I have checked. I couldn't find reference which verify "It claimed the inheritance of Gojoseon, and the rulers continued to use the Gojoseon titles of Tanje, meaning "emperor." Am I right in guessing that some (largely Korean) claim that it is inherited from Gojoseon solely on the basis of the word "Tanje"? Until someone can give more specific source from ancient text which clearly state that "Buyeo is a successor of Gojoseon", the sentence is off. If it is based on guess or speculation, then such opinion require attribution and disambiguation. FWBOarticle

These are the only references to buyeo/puyo/fuyu (state) in the 2005 encyclopedia britannica deluxe edition (with wikilinks added):

  • under Koguryo: "Koguryŏ is traditionally said to have been founded in 37 BC in the Tongge River basin of northern Korea by Chu-mong, leader of one of the Puyŏ tribes native to the area, but modern historians believe it is morelikely that the tribal state was formed in the 2nd century BC."
  • under Korea, History of: The Three Kingdoms: "Apart from Chosŏn, the region of Korea developed into tribal states. To the north, Puyŏ rose in the Sungari River basin of Manchuria. Chin, which had emerged south of the Han River in the 2nd century BC, was split into three tribal states—Mahan, Chinhan, and Pyŏnhan."

see also [1]Appleby 04:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

All these citations suggest that Fuyu/Puyo/Buyeo is part of Manchurian history rather than Korean history. Chinese romanization should be used for Manchurian history.--Endroit 05:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Those citations does use Korean romanization over Chinese ones. If the sole reasoning beyond using the Chinese romanization for Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyu is that it was located in Manchuria, Goguryeo, which territory greatly occupied that of Manchuria, should only employ Chinese romanizations as well? I don't know about this. Also, I guess common English usage for whichever romanization is important for naming of the articles. Deiaemeth 05:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:MOS defers the naming conventions for Chinese place names to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). There, it specifically says Mainland China place names should be in Hanyu Pinyin. Please follow the rules, Appleby & Deiaemeth.--Endroit 06:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
That refers to Chinese ""Place names", as in Chinese cities and such. Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyo is not a city/town/place in mainland China right now. Mainland China place names should be in Hanyu Pinyin. Place names in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and overseas (such as Singapore) should be romanized in whatever way is commonly used for those places. Same goes for non-Han Chinese place names. So use Hohhot, Kashgar, and Shigatse, not Huhehaote, Kashi, and Rikaze. This is the chinese naming conventions for historical names [2]. Please read the rules, Endroit. I wouldn't call Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyu a "Chinese place".Deiaemeth 07:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe I am reading it correctly, Deiaemeth. Manchuria is a non-Han Chinese place using Hanyu Pinyin. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese), this would mean Place names in "Manchuria" should be romanized in whatever way is commonly used "for those places". or Place names in "Manchuria" should be romanized in "Hanyu Pinyin."
Can other editors confirm which romanization "is commonly used" in Manchuria? I don't think Korean is commonly used in Manchuria.--Endroit 07:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
By your reasoning, should we then romanize Goguryeo as Gaoguli, seeing as how it was located in Manchuria? Btw, the naming conventions state "These conventions are guidelines only, and there are examples of exceptions, so please use your discretion. As always, all discussion is welcome on the talk page." Just because it was located in what is present day China does not automatically subjectable to Chinese romanization. Also "Place names in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and overseas (such as Singapore) should be romanized in whatever way is commonly used for those places. Same goes for non-Han Chinese place names" .. so this would mean whichever Romanization is common for "Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyu" should be used, not for Manchuria. Deiaemeth
Deiaemeth, don't try to evade the issue by mixing it up with Goguryeo. Your POV with respect to Fuyu/Buyeo is at odds with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). I'd ask others for opinions if I were you.--Endroit 08:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to "Evade" the issue. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese), which isn't a Wikipedia policy but rather a guideline, states "Place names in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and overseas (such as Singapore) should be romanized in whatever way is commonly used for those places. Same goes for non-Han Chinese place names". So it is stating that romanization/name used most commonly for Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyu kingdom should be used. It is your POV with respect to Buyeo/Fuyu that is at odds with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If you're suggesting that Fuyu is the most commmon romanization for Buyeo/Puyo/Fuyu Kingdom, than back it up with sources and publications. Deiaemeth 08:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth-POV prefers Korean romanization for a Manchurian placename because he believes it is the most popular in English. Endroit-POV prefers the Chinese romanization (Hanyu Pinyin), because it is actually used there in Manchuria. I believe we disagree on the interpretation of "for those places". Other people are welcome to interpret Wikipedia:MOS and naming conventions with respect to Fuyu/Buyeo and comment here. Thanks.--Endroit 08:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, contrary to Wikipedia:Naming conventions Chinese which is just a guideline and not a Wikipedia Policy, Wikipedia:Naming Conventions specifically states that Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. So, whichever one has more English usage should be the article name. Deiaemeth 08:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Neither "Buyeo" nor "Fuyu" are "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." That rule wouldn't necessarily apply here. Again Deiaemeth-POV says that rule applies. Endroit-POV says it doesn't.--Endroit 08:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Not many English speakers would recognize many (or any)things in relation to Korean or Chinese history. So that naming convention would mean most English publications and such, independent reference works, etc. most commonly use. Deiaemeth 08:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
That's not what it says in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places). The "naming conventions" merely defers this to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) for "Place Names in China."--Endroit 09:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) is a guideilne. Wikipedia:Naming Conventions ( a de jure policy) states that the most common English usage should be used.

Deiaemeth 09:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Common English usage?

by Tetsutaka Sugawara - 1996]

by Iyanatul Islam - Business & Economics - 1997 - 306 pages]

by Donald Stone MacDonald - History - 1996 - 356 pages]

edited by Keith Pratt - History - 1999 - 568 pages]

by Warren I Cohen - History - 2001 - 528 pages]

by Eun-Joo Lee, Duk-Soo Park, Jaehoon Yeon - Foreign Language Study - 2004 - 328 pages]

by James Huntley Grayson - Religion - 2002 - 320 pages]

edited by Delmer M. Brown - History - 1993 - 650 pages]

edited by Philip Baldi - 1990 - 764 pages]

by Sarah M Nelson - History - 1993 - 324 page]

by Hung-Gyu Kim - Literary Criticism - 1997 - 246 pages]

History of Korean Literature by Peter F Williams - Literary Criticism - 2003 - 654 pages]

edited by Peter H Lee, W Theodore De Bary, Ytngho Ch'oe, Hugh H W Kang - History - 1996 - 480 pages]

edited by Kozo Yamamura, John Whitney Hall, Marius B Jansen, Madoka Kanai, Denis Twitchett - History]

by Marvin C Whiting - History - 2002 - 604 pages]

by James Huntley Grayson - Social Science - 2001]

edited by Peter H Lee, W Theodore De Bary, Ytngho Ch'oe, Hugh H W Kang - History - 1996 - 480 pages]

edited by Yongho Ch'oe, Peter H Lee, William Theodore De Bary - History - 2001 - 448 pages]

Common usage in English; will list more if you guys request.Deiaemeth 08:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fuyu, a people of Manchuria

-- ran (talk) 08:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's not "64 books", it's 64 "pages. That kinda confused me too. Ancient Puyo [3] (95 results)

Fuyu people [4] (188 results) , Puyo people [5] (335 Results) and Buyeo people [6] (3 results)

[7] Puyo state (208 Results) vs. Fuyu state [8] (150 results) (most of them relating to State-owned enterprise and state-owned farms of fuyu county)

Let's look at some of these results for "Puyo people":

  • Hence people from riverine sites such as Puyo (this is about South America)
  • Specifically, Rojas Puyo told rebel leader Jacobo Arenas
  • To the Oriente, buses depart regularly for Puyo ($1.50, two hours)
  • Some people complete the whole 61km to Puyo (7—8hr with breaks), which is quite a challenging ride,
  • but they spoke Puyo Quichua perfectly and we understood each other
  • Unión Base, Puyo. Zayed, S., B. Sorg, and E. Hecker. 1984.
  • south of Puyo is home to the Shuar people, still known for their former
  • There is a constant flow of goods and people between Puyo and the Sierra through Ambato and Riobamba
  • In 1992 black people from Esmeraldas province joined indigenous peoples in a protest march from Puyo, in the Amazonian Region, to Quito.

"Puyo state"?:

  • A particularly relevant exogenous factor was the selection of Puyo as provincial capital in 1959,
  • Puyo None Al 18.7 21.7 Ye Yes Ye Ye No No Yes (From report on global slums)
  • In one anonymous 1997 group interview in a community outside of Puyo, Pastaza,
  • Puyo. An educated mestizo born in Pastaza
  • Puyo Pungo Post-nasal voicing [—son] -4 [+voice] / [+nasal]
  • Whitten (1985: 217-45) analyzed the 12 May Puyo parade of 1981
  • to keep, as it were, the statuteI pUYO and consistent state.
  • East of Baños, the road to Puyo, in the Oriente,
  • Puyo. 1994. 17 Waves of colonization into the Amazon region began
I Could ferret out the ones that relate to kingdom, as I've done above - I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. It would take me quite a while to link them all :P Deiaemeth 09:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


"Fuyu" has much more disambiguous meanings.

  • Fuyu Persimmon

- The most common meaning for "FUYU", many books had info on Fuyu pollination and genetic makeup.

  • Much Japanese people named Fuyu, including yu no yama
  • Chines Fuyu County, as dicussed in China's Industrial State-Owned Enterprises: Between Profitability and Bankruptcy'
  • Chinese meaning for surplus workers, "surplus' (fuyu Qigong)" [9]

[10]

-- ran (talk) 08:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, another thing: I noticed that Buyeo is the least common Romanization in the results you cited. So why did you move this page back to Buyeo again? -- ran (talk) 08:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

We could move it to Puyo per McCune Reichshauer, which I don't mind at all. Deiaemeth 09:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

buyeo/puyo is a style choice, & the wikipedia convention is to use the relatively recent official Revised romanization of Korean. this means wikipedia uses Goryeo & Busan, even though Koryo & Pusan are still somewhat more common in google & academia. whether to romanize from the korean or from the chinese pronunciation is more of a substantive question, & this needs to follow the non-negotiable WP:NPOV policy of following the majority of prominent reference works. Appleby 17:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

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