Talk:Burgundians
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- anon comment converted into stub at Passport To Pimlico
"Catalaunian Fields" - how certain is the identification of the location?
The page is a bit of a misnomer. The original tribe really should be referred to as 'Burgundes'. Burgundia was called after these people. The later Burgundians were called after Burgundia. Much like Italy was called after the Italics and the Italians after Italia.
- Probably true, but do you know of any historians writing in English who calls these people the Burgundes? I think most English-speakers would call them Burgundians. Throw some references our way, and perhaps we'll decide to change the article title. JHK 09:21 Aug 9, 2002 (PDT)
Burgenda land, es; n. The land of the Burgundians, an island in the west of the Baltic sea; Boringia. Burgenda land is the Icelandic Burgundarhólmr, of which the present Danish and Swedish name Bornholm is a contraction :— Burgenda land the land of the Burgundians, Ors. l, I; Bos. 21, 44.
Burgendan; pl. m. The Burgundians; Burgundiones :— Burgendan habbaþ ðone ylcan s©s earm be westan him the Burgundians have the same arm of the sea to the west of them, Ors. I, I; Bos. 19, 19. v. Burgendas.
Burgendas; gen. a; pl. m: Burgendan; pl. m. The Burgundians; Burgundiones. These, in Alfred's time, dwelt to the north-west of the Osti. We find them at another period on the east bank of the Oder. They have given name to the island of Bornholm in the Baltic :— Osti habbaþ be norban him Winedas and Burgendas the Esthonians have to the north of them the Wends and the Burgundians, Ors. l, l; Bos. 19, 18. Wine Burgenda friend of the Burgundians, Wald. 85; Vald. 2, 14. Weóld Burgendum Gifica Gifica ruled the Burgundians, Scðp Th. 40; WId. 19: 131; WId. 65.
Burgende; gen. a; dat. um; m. The Burgundians, inhabitants of Burgundy, an old province in the east of France; Burgundiones :— Pro-fentse hæfþ be norban hyre ða beorgas, ðe man Alpis h©t, and be súþan hyre is Wendel-s©, and be norban hyre and eastan synd Bnrgende, and Wascan be westan Provence has on the north of it the mountains, which people call the Alps, and on the south of it is the Mediterranean sea, and on the north and east of it are the Burgundians, and on the west the Gasconians, Ors. l, i; Bos. 24, 2.
[edit] In the middle of updating
I'm adding a bunch of material from my bachelor's thesis on the Burgundians. I'm trying not to totally rewrite or undo anything people have written, but please forgive me (and re-edit) if I've made something incorrect in the process of splicing my stuff in. I'm in the middle of editing the second kingdom time period, and there may be some lines missing at the moment, but I'm trying to ensure everything is accounted for. It's late, and I'm going to bed, but I'll finish the edits tomorrow.
Ryan McDaniel 04:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, I only a bit curious about other theories. Are there any alternative theories for the origin of the Burgundians? If so state them. I don't think that the article is made NPOV by presenting the main theory as spurious without providing other theories or evidence for them.--Wiglaf 08:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Moreover, by presenting the first evidence for them as being east of the Rhine, and making it sound as if east of the Rhine is their likely place of origin is not satisfactory. The region east of the Rhine was long inhabited by Celtic tribes, unless of course, you think they were originally Celtic, or can provide evidence that they founded their tribe (chronicles? legends?) east of the Rhine.--Wiglaf 08:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- PS, I disapprove of the "some" game. The Bornholm theory is simply too common to fall into the category "some have argued" weasel expression.--Wiglaf 08:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
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- My sincerest apologies, and perhaps I should cede editing of this section to someone who knows better! When researching the subject, I had only been able to find place-name arguments, which can be pretty easily stretched wherever the author wants them to be (in which case I thought that "some have argued" was appropriate language), and much later traditions that are not always reliable. I am quite prepared to believe archaeological evidence, however; it's just that in about a year of looking, I couldn't find any. Admittedly I am hampered when it comes to the Germanic tribes in my inability to read much of the early literature; my German is bad and I speak no Scandinavian languages. Is the source you cite for the Bornholm evidence (Stjerna) available in translation?Ryan McDaniel 10:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- There's no reason to apologize. A Wikipedia article is made for reconciling knowledge about a subject from different sources, and you've done history studies and not archaeology studies, I guess. I could scan the page, e-mail it to you, and then you could ask someone to translate the page.--Wiglaf 10:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Much appreciated, if it's not too much trouble. rmcdaniel03[at]alumni[dot]caltech[dot]edu. Thanks!--Ryan McDaniel 11:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Done!--Wiglaf 13:47, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- Much appreciated, if it's not too much trouble. rmcdaniel03[at]alumni[dot]caltech[dot]edu. Thanks!--Ryan McDaniel 11:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- There's no reason to apologize. A Wikipedia article is made for reconciling knowledge about a subject from different sources, and you've done history studies and not archaeology studies, I guess. I could scan the page, e-mail it to you, and then you could ask someone to translate the page.--Wiglaf 10:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- My sincerest apologies, and perhaps I should cede editing of this section to someone who knows better! When researching the subject, I had only been able to find place-name arguments, which can be pretty easily stretched wherever the author wants them to be (in which case I thought that "some have argued" was appropriate language), and much later traditions that are not always reliable. I am quite prepared to believe archaeological evidence, however; it's just that in about a year of looking, I couldn't find any. Admittedly I am hampered when it comes to the Germanic tribes in my inability to read much of the early literature; my German is bad and I speak no Scandinavian languages. Is the source you cite for the Bornholm evidence (Stjerna) available in translation?Ryan McDaniel 10:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
