Talk:Bukkake

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Talk:Group sex

[edit] How do I cite video evidence

There is no "legitimate" source to cite regarding the emergence of multiple females ejaculating on males/females. But there is video. Since the video is pornographic how do I cite? - theseeman

[edit] Rephrased disambiguation sentence?

Is it really proper to introduce the article with the words "Bukkake can also mean a Japanese noodle preparation method [...]", e.g. if the readers are unsure of the intended content of the article and/or unfamiliar with the word "bukkake" itself? -- Zelaron 14:10, 5 Feb 2006 (CET)

[edit] Tied to a stick?

I always thought that the whole "feudal Japan wife-punishment" thing involved the woman being buried in sand up to her neck, with her husband ejaculating on her face before beheading her with a sword. Or am I just way off here? -- Viro 00:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you wanna see something funny regarding BUKKAKE go to http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bukkake.php

[edit] Bukkake long predates modern Japan and has existed in many different societies

This is manifestly obvious. Gangbangs, gangrapes, and various forms of degradation have existed throughout time. You know, it's not exactly complicated for multiple men to ejaculate upon a woman's face. The idea that out of (about) 60 BILLION people throughout time, no woman was ever ejaculated upon by a group of men until 1970s Japan... well, that idea is simply ridiculous.

The act of multiple men masturbating and ejaculating onto a single woman was given a name and popularised in the first bukkake movies in Japan. No doubt this had happened before but was not recognised as a specific sexual act.

Where there are gangbangs (and there have been throughout human time), things like bukkake are going to happen. Stay tuned...more references and evidence coming soon.
-- Angela

Klonimus: "I would like to see some evidence for this, I cant imagine a single reference to bukkake like activity in western literature"

Well, you don't have much imagination because there's a lot of it. For starters, here's part of a review by Dr. Susan Block of "The Sexual Life of Catherine M." Ms. Millet discusses her experiences getting gangbanged, covered in sperm and filth. Is anyone really *ignorant* enough to believe getting cummed on was "invented" by the Japanese? It's always been around so long as humans have existed!

"Getting cummed on" covers a multitude of sexual acts, bukkake being one example.

"The Sexual Life of Catherine M. serves up an art critic's detailed, almost dispassionate perspective of being in the center of a gigantic gangbang. The book makes you feel that this is, in a way, what women's bodies are built for, to lie like an egg, waiting to be fertilized by millions of sperm, penetrated by dozens of cocks, fucked by dozens of men, all vying politely to get inside. Or, as Millet herself alludes, like a spider in her very sticky web. My least favorite parts of the book are the ones about dirt. This is not just "dirty" in a spiritual sense, as in "talking dirty," although Millet covers that subject pretty well too. This is dirt in the sense of real, physical grime, crud (human and otherwise) and lack of a shower. We Americans already tend to think that the French don't bathe enough (thus, the fabulous perfumes), and Catherine M. confirms all our worst fears about this aspect of the French. She's constantly having sex in filth with dirty disgusting men with rotten teeth and foul smells. It's a wonder she hasn't picked up a lot more than just "the clap" along the way. She calls it raising herself "above prejudice." I call it yucky."[1]

"Appears to be pornography-only, unless anyone here knows better. What's in it for the woman? Even if her motivation is masochistic, this does not feature in most reports of female fantasies."-Karada

Ridiculous! Even if it doesn't appear in "most" reports of female fantasies (a clumsy statement that I seriously question), it still does appear in some. How can you ignore these very real female desires?

And even if no women desired it (which some clearly do), that would not mean bukkake is confined to porn. That is a total non sequitur on your part. I am sure that bukkake (and far worse forms of humiliation) have occurred in gang rapes throughout time.

Why not just alter the entry so that it says something to the effect of "While the act of multiple men ejaculating on a woman's face and/or body is likely as old as the gangbang itself, Bukkake (the word) is a fairly recent Japanese invention."? Dr Archeville 02:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's a solid reference from classical literature, from Marquis de Sade's 120 Days of Sodom:

I follow him, we enter, he shuts the door and, having posted me directly opposite him:

"Well, Francon," says he, pulling a monstrous prick from his drawers, an instrument which nearly toppled me with fright; "tell me," he continues, frigging himself, "have you ever seen anything to equal it?... that's what they call a prick, my little one, yes, a prick... it's used for fucking, and what you're going to see, what's going to flow out of it in a moment or two, is the seed wherefrom you were created. I've shown it to your sister, I've shown it to all the little girls of your age, lend a hand, help it along, help get it out, do as your sister does, she's got it out of me twenty times or more.... I show them my prick, and then what do you suppose I do? I squirt the fuck in their face.... That's my passion, my child, I have no other... and you're about to behold it."

And at the same time I felt myself completely drenched in a white spray, it soaked me from head to foot, some drops of it had leapt even into my eyes, for my little head just came to the height of his fly. However, Laurent was gesticulating. "Ah! the pretty fuck, the dear fuck I am losing," he cried, "why, look at you! You're covered with it." And gradually regaining control of himself, he calmly put his tool away and decamped, slipping twenty sous into my hand and suggesting that I bring him any little companions I might happen to have.

This is clearly an example of Bukkake, dating from 1784 when Sade completed this work. However this activity was not explicitly referred to by name in story, so I would assume the French language lacked a word to describe it back then. I suggest this article should mention that it was the Japanese who first termed “Bukkake” but the activity was practiced in various cultures and in various times throughout history.

This 'de Sade' reference is NOT bukkake, it is merely a facial. 213.140.9.230 20:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tentacles in japanese cartoons

I would agree with your opinion, and have thought the same thing about the origin of this and other sexual practices in Japanese pornography: ie, Tentacles/monsters etc. I would be interested to know whether there are any other countries that share similar censorship laws, and the type of pornography in those countries.

The idea that bukkake exists in Japanese porn because of "censorship" is utter rubbish. For one, bukkake also exists outside of Japan, and is NOT confined to pornography. For two, countries that have virtually no censorship of porn (like Denmark and the Netherlands) have porn that is just as "perverted" as Japan's. There is lots of bestiality porn in those countries, and porn where women get defecated and urinated upon (and you thought -bukkake- was extreme. LOL!). This is again why the idea that modern Japanese people "invented" bukkake is -pathetically laughable-: erotic humiliation is a theme in just about every society one looks at. It's nothing new or unusual.

-- Angela

[edit] Disgusting and unnecessary

I agree that bukkake is disgusting. In fact, I think that it is even slightly more disgusting than anal sex and almost as disgusting as scat fetishism. I am not sure whether it is unnecessary, though. In any case, if we are going to remove disgusting subjects, I would start from cannibalism. Rafał Pocztarski 21:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So, if I think that (just as an example) the United States is disgusting, that is reason enough to put it on VfD? More seriously, subjects such as murder and rape are also disgusting, but they still have articles. Furthermore, "disgusting" and "unneccessary" are POV terms, which has no place on Wikipedia. No, this is a real sexual practice that should be documented, as the others that Rfl mentioned above; the existence of articles should not be influenced by personal sentiments, prudish or otherwise. Oh, and lastly, the person who put this article up for deletion should have a good look at clitoris for a real heart attack. Elf-friend 21:31, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There has been another request to delete an article because it is disgusting and children shouldn’t read about it. Should there be (or is there) any separate from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion list of articles which were requested to be deleted not because there is a copyright violation or the article is redundant or of low quality, but because it covers a taboo? Rafał Pocztarski 16:37, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In that case, wouldn't it be better to use software, such as NetNanny?

This is the last place on earth that should have censorship. If you are even capable of having such an idea in your mind as a possibility, you do not belong here. This is a resource for Everything, paticularly things which make up a large part of popular culture, which is where wiki derives its very strength in numbers. Take your morals and go make your own censored version. WikiMyWay wouldn't be very popular though, I can tell you.

I would direct the writer of that deletion request to the WP:NOT page: "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors."

[edit] Why does link to bukkake.com keep getting removed?

Hi-

I keep trying to add an external link to "Bukkake.com" and it keeps getting removed. I am not trying to add this link to any other article, only the one about bukkake. The Bukkake.com web site has over 100 pages of bukkake-related content. It is a safe bet that whoever wrote the wikipedia article checked out bukkake.com for a lot of their info. Although the bukkake.com web site carries some adult advertisements it is not a porn site and is informational. Bukkake is, after all, a word with sex-related connotations.

The Bukkake.com web site PREDATES the wikipedia article and contains a superset of information about this topic.

While I realize that the topic "bukkake" might be offensive to some people, it seems somewhat hypocritical to have a 2-paragraph article about it in wikipedia, but refuse to link to 100 pages of additional information about the topic. I mean, why publish a page on this topic in wikipedia at all if attempts to provide a source of additional information are going to be stifled?

Who can I talk to about this? Thanks. :-)

Please read: [2]

Thank you for that link. This is what I saw on there:

What should be linked to

  1. Official sites should be added to the page of any organization, person, or other entity that has an official site. Bukkake.com qualifies
  2. Sites that have been cited or used as references in the creation of a text. Intellectual honesty requires that any site actually used as a reference be cited. To fail to do so is plagiarism. Bukkake.com qualifies
  3. If a book or other text that is the subject of an article exists somewhere on the Internet it should be linked to.
  4. On articles with multiple Points of View, a link to sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one POV should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of what their POV is. Bukkake.com qualifies
  5. High content pages that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Bukkake.com qualifies

What is the problem?

Your claim that "bukkake.com" is somehow an "official site" -- this is, of course, nonsense. Your claims that the "bukkake.com" site was used as a reference for the creation of this page are also... disingenuous. I have a good knowledge of the creation history of this page, and it does not appear to have used your site as a primary reference. Your claim that "bukkake.com" is a "high content site" also appears to be unwarranted: it appears to be a generic porno-links site, with some text added to pull in search engines. Finally, the "multiple points of view" argumnent does not seem to apply here. Against this, we have two principles: Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising, nor is it a mere collection of links. Wikipedia does not exist to drive traffic to porno sites.

The remarkable thing is that you have had your link removed by so many users, most of whom have offered similar explanations, yet you persist in re-adding your link, and asking for a justification. -- Karada 13:19, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You claim that Bukkake.com is not the official bukkake site. What is the basis for this claim? Just your opinion? Can you show me a better example? No, because there isn't one. Bukkake.com really is the official site. You use the word "disingenuous" to describe the use of Bukkake.com as a reference, which implies that my assertions are at least partially correct. You claim that Bukkake.com "appears" to be a generic porn links site - NOT TRUE, There are a set of ads that appear on every page, but there is a TON of content about bukkake, well over 100 pages in fact. Although people have removed the link, there have also been people who added it.

No one is being forced to click on the link. It has that little graphic that shows that it is NOT affiliated with wikipedia. Someone even added in that warning text. It is totally related to the content on the page. It makes sense for it to be there.

You claim that Bukkake.com is the official bukkake site. What is the basis for your claim? Dictionary definition of "official": having official authority or sanction; "official permission"; "an official representative". So, from which organization do you derive this standing or endorsement?

Also please note the following sentence in the linked page mentioned above: "Persistently linking to one's own site is considered Vandalism and can result in sanctions." In other words, if you keep this up, you are likely to be banned. Elf-friend 16:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A better external link

I've now added an extlink to The X Factory: Anatomy of a Bukkake, a spectator.net article by Anthony Petkovich. This external reference is more representative of the sort of quality required. -- The Anome 10:28, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual Urban Legend

So, um, I somewhat question this practice's inclusion in the "urban legend" category. There's numerous pieces of evidence on film and about a billion blind link jokes. Any objections to removing it from this category? -- PeterWoodman 06:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Obviously there were, as it got removed. Please, this is not accurate. PeterWoodman 20:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] more information wanted?

Does anyone know of any resources for related-approach information on this, and especially on the plain facial?

[edit] Picture

Who agrees that there should be a picture of bukkake? It would help casual readers get a good idea of what it is exactly. - without name

Right now, there's a rather explicit picture in the article. Although I don't feel that we should censor this topic's words, is the picture appropriate for the site?

Is the picture under someone else's copyright? It seems to be showing some URL in the bottom right corner.

I think that the words explain it well enough. The picture there now is pornographic. I have no problem with pictures displaying nudity on this site but i think pictures graphically displaying sex acts have no place in an encycolpaedia. Not to mention that the picture's information gave no mention of whether or not they have the rights to display it here

I have removed the picture. Chip Unicorn 14:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

And there's another pornographic image on this page... 08:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure in no time we'd have a few Wikipedians upload a GFDL version of their making. What is Wikipedia without such spirit of intersecting the public good and petty vanity? 218.162.117.120 05:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Seppukake"

I have removed the following from the article:

"Some scholars believe the origins of bukkake is from an ancient ritual practiced during the Pekku era in which bukkake was used during seppuku (ritual suicide). This was known as "Seppukake" and was once considered the most humilating punishment for a nobleman to endure."

If true, this would be very interesting; however, I can't find any evidence to support it. Cite, please? -- The Anome 11:39, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

This souds very likely to be a joke of questionable taste. Rama 18:32, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I prefer the IRC version: "seppukake! the newest craze in japan! woman dips her face in the entrails of several hundred disgraced samurai." DS 17:23, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Word origin

There are two different explanations for the word:

(from the Japanese verb ぶっかける, bukkakeru: "to douse, to pour").
... is the noun form of the Japanese verb bukkakeru (打っ掛ける, to dash [water]), and means simply "splash" or "dash".

Maybe both are right, but they should be consistent. 68.163.183.218 05:50, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kirk Gibson anecdote: is a joke, should be removed

That last paragraph under history is someone having a joke. It is not true or helpful.

[edit] The "urban legends" stuff...

I think it would be best if the "urban legends" bits were either omitted or downplayed. The one about bukkake having "originated in feudal Japan as a method of punishing women who had comitted adultery" is maybe notable only because it is a myth that some seem to believe. But the one about bukkake being some kind of "underground initiation" among sororities seems to be the product of an active imagination, but seems to lack the popularity of being a true urban myth. I would omit this part.

[edit] Bukkakke a "Japanese invention", indeed

Utterly ridiculous. If the writer of this entry believes this he simply is poorly educated in American pornography of the 1960's and 1970's, including 1979's Caligula.

"A Japanese invention"? Please. The word is of Japanese origin and therefore you will not see this word appear in usage outside Japan before the assimilation of Japanese sub-culture into general / fringe American society, circa late 1980's / early 1990's (invasion of Japanese Anime). Therefore to seek 'bukkake' in description of the act outside Japan is a fallacy - that, simply, is all.

Please correct this grotesque mistake in this Waki entry as soon as possible.

Such anger. First of all, on this Wiki, you can edit the entry. Second of all, it will help a lot if you can cite evidence, preferably with a book or website, that bukkake was available in the west before Japanese porn started doing it. I don't recall any part of Caligula that counts, but I haven't seen much of it. --Golbez 06:07, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Please research facial, one of the forms of bukkake. Please examine the Caligula synopsis at http://www.caligulathemovie.com/Synopsis.html , section 18 - ' While she is being masterbated on by several slaves, Ennia remarks to Caligula that she doesn't really want to move to Egypt after they marry.' Caligula, copyright 1979 and filmed from August 5th to December 24, 1976 therefore predates the quote of 1980's bukkake.

[edit] Introduction

The following is a sentence taken from the introduction:

Various styles exist, but a common form of bukkake seen in such publications will involve…

There is no mention of any publications prior to this sentence, and it seems strange to mention it in the description of a sexual act. If a reference is being made to pornographic materials, it should be explicit and separate from the description of the act itself.—Kbolino 22:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One more source of info

Some "How To" on bukkake, including techniques and even recommended nutrition!

I have no time at the moment to "rip" it "off" properly, so may someone else take the advantage and "import" it to Wikipedia.

http://www.4-bukkake.com/

[edit] Pictures

Are pictures really necessary for this article? I think readers will get the point without having to be shown illustrations. Stanley011 06:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we ask ourselves whether pictures are really necessary for the apple article? People will get the point without having to be shown illustrations, too... Seriously, though, WP:NOT censored. —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 13:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to be one to censor Wikipedia, BUT, you have to ask if the use of the explicit images that are currently displayed is rather gratuitous. From the description of the opening paragraph alone it seems pretty obvious what constitutes an act of bukkake, without the need to show photos which are so 'in your face' (ahem). Also the captions of 'An example of bukkake', and 'Another example of bukkake' seems laughable. What? Didn't you get it the first time? It is not an absolute necessity for articles to be accompanied by visual representations, so it does beg the question whether any arguments defending censorship are in this case just blindly crusading the issue, without contemplating the real requirements of a comprehensive definition of the subject matter. I feel that there is no point whatsoever to display graphic images on this page, as exemplified by the pages for anal sex, fisting and cumshot. Your average joe-schmoe is not so lacking in imagination that if he can't get the idea from a description, he is incapable of searching the interweb for examples. Wikipedia server space is not infinite, so we ought to exercise some discretion when it comes to deciding whether it is worthwhile uploading pictures. 81.153.179.152 19:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, deleted pages and images take up just as much or more space on servers as/than extant ones. I do agree that one picture will suffice, but I still don't see any reason to illustrate the apple article, but not the bukakke article. —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 19:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That was a quick response! Well, at this juncture I think that one image should definitely be removed. I would still like a response as to the point of having an image at all. External links are just as useful, and without wanting to jump on a rather trite line of argument, shouldn't we be considering wikipedia's credibility, to some degree at least? Beerathon 81.153.179.152 19:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

We could consider in-lining the image, but I still think that the article should be illustrated in some way. —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 08:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The image is downright offensive, degrading and obscene. It should NOT be shown at all in the article. If readers are so curious as to want to be shown an illustration, then a link to the image at the bottom of the page would be appropriate. Thank you. Stanley011 16:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the image unless someone can produce documentation as to its copyright status. I haven't seen anything indicating consent by that woman to be shown on this website with semen all over her face. It's unnecessary, inappropriate, and probably illegal to include the photo in this article. Nightstallion: give it a rest. If you don't understand the material difference between a picture of an apple and a picture of some woman with cum all over her face, you shouldn't be participating in this project. But the fact is that you do, and you think you're standing for some kind of anti-censorship principle. You're not. You're illustrating instead why proponents of censorship may have a point. I am staunchly against censorship, which is why I know how important it is for communities to self-police. The image is gone. --Mrnorwood 18:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You have a point regarding copyright status, it looks like it was taken from a commercial Japanese site. However, even then, it is more appropriate to flag its copyright status and then delete it (by an admin) after the prescribed period has passed, if no copyright status information is forthcoming. If you just delete it from the article and not flag it as a possible copyvio, it still remains available on Wikipedia's servers, in contravention of any copyright law. So, you actually didn't do Wikipedia any favours by just deleting it from the article. However, your other points are more debatable (e.g "unnecessary, inappropriate") and your action was not taken in the spirit of consensus. In any case, your input would be taken far more seriously if you had more than just three edits to your name, which looks like a single-purpose account. Elf-friend 05:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Elf-friend: it's not a single-purpose account, but it is new; most of my edits have been made anonymously, and this is the first debatable/controversial edit I've made. I recognize that my edit was not undertaken in the spirit of consensus, but I felt that it was better to remove (or at least hide) the image first, then debate its appropriateness. I would have done the same thing had an analogous image shown up on the Child Pornography article. My primary concern is not, in fact, copyright (although that's clearly an issue), but consent; clearing copyright can, however, often act as evidence of consent. But even if copyright and consent issues were cleared, I would find the image inappropriate. Not necessarily offensive to me, mind you, but inappropriate for a Wikipedia article. From Wikipedia:Profanity: "Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." The image was gratutious. As pointed out above, the motivation behind its original inclusion can be ascertained by the tongue-in-cheek accompaniment of "Another example of bukkake". Ha ha, all well and good for a little laugh, but Wikipedia should be a resource for learning about something without necessarily being exposed to it. We don't rub people's faces in photos of rape, child pornography, bodily mutilation, etc. We can point them toward such things elsewhere on the web, but we should allow people to read about them before being confronted by such images. This is not censorship. Text and images are different from each other, and images, while often informative, also have a cognitive impact that text does not. We should be sensitive to people's aversion to certain images, while balancing it against our mission of informing readers. Here, the image was gratuitous and distracting, and I do not believe it was included in good faith (one of the three main requirements for Wikipedia edits, along with civility and consensus). For a more reasonable (IMO) approach to illustrated articles on pornography, see e.g. Pornography, which seems to strike a better balance. Mrnorwood 16:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

A note on the citation of Wikipedia:Profanity: that is a guideline, not a policy. Instead, WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not censored is a policy. Therefore one may argue that a specific case should be an exception for a guideline, unlike policies that should have no exceptions.--BMF81 15:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Why in the world should we be sensitive to people's aversions? There are people out there who would faint from looking at an anatomical diagram, much less a real-world picture. I'm certainly averse to some pictures in the Armenian Genocide article, but they serve a function that no textual summation could. Judging an illustrative image (the only one on the page, mind you) as gratuitious or profane is condescending, human beings live in a complex world that includes both the profane and the sublime. Also, comparing this article to one on rape sets up a straw man argument, since rape is not the subject of this discussion. A graphic rendering or photograph of Bukkake is perfectly legal and relevant to the article.

All that being said, the picture currently used is infringing on copyright, as the photo itself is a commercial product. However if an appropriate free-use or fair-use image is found, any attempt to censor it will be an action of personal bias. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 00:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

For an already ongoing, related debate, see also Talk:Gokkun. -- Ashmodai 20:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Anetode: 1. Are you suggesting that, if distributing photographs of rape were legal, it would be a good idea for wikipedia? If so, you and I disagree more profoundly than we will be able to work out here. Photographs of rape share with the photograph in dispute here two material characteristics: they are exploitative, and they are likely to be found offensive to most wikipedia readers. 2. While you seem to agree with my primary objection, the question of consent by the photographic subject (or at least its proxy, copyright), you disagree with my secondary objection, that of upsetting readers without informing them. Why, all things being equal, should we wish to upset people? Are you such a free speech absolutist that you wish to live in a society where a man is free to follow your mother, your wife, your children down the street, naked, masturbating, yelling about how much he'd like to fuck them? After all, he's just "informing them" of a fact, and communicating visual information about profane elements of the world they live in, right? While I don't trust our government to regulate obscenity, I do believe that some things are inappropriate for public display, and I do trust the wikipedia community to do define them. And I believe that the photo here qualifies.--Mrnorwood 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

1. No, I am in no way suggesting that. What I meant is that rape is a completely different subject, and unless you are suggesting that the practice of bukkake is directly equivalent to rape (i.e. a forced criminal act), then that topic should not enter at all in this discussion.

2. There is a difference between supporting free speech and actively (not to mention perversly) disseminating obscene or repugnant material. To say that I am advocating stalking women and children while masturbating and yelling obscenities is a silly and unnecessary appeal to ridicule. There are two ways that anyone might stumble upon the Bukkake article on Wikipedia: they follow a Wikilink from an article that concerns human sexuality (such as Group sex or Hentai), or by searching for it directly. Either way, Wikipedia does not force the topic upon an unsuspecting person, but acts as an online multimedia repository of human knowldege and culture, one that does not discriminate between topics. The argument that potentially offensive topics are not worthy of illustration is a prejudiced act of censorship, your personal aversions should not dictate the scope of coverage. Figuring out what might be the more appropriate way to integrate a potentially offensive illustration is a more reasonable concern, and there already is a seperate discussion devoted to that. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 09:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Anetode: We seem to be crossing our wires over the "rape" analogy. I use the analogy for at least two reasons:

1. I am trying to figure out whether you think that community self-censorship is ever a good idea. If you actually think that legality is the only barrier to posting obscene or exploitative images on Wikipedia - and that therefore, child porn or rape images would be appropriate if they were legal - I think you will find yourself in the minority and not in accord with the general consensus on obscene or exploitative images. If you do think that we should practice self-censorship in some cases where the images are not illegal, I'd like to know what your reasons are. It's difficult to argue with someone who won't state the premises of his argument.

2. I don't know the facts surrounding the production of this photograph, but given what I know of conditions for sex workers - especially in developing countries, but even in countries like the US and Japan - the image may well have been produced under circumstances involving substantial coercion and exploitation, and is possibly in violation of international human rights treaties to which those two countries, at least, are signatories. Huge amounts of pornography is produced under illegal working conditions, and wikipedians have access to enough information about those conditions that they should be wary of incorporating the products of that industry into Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrnorwood (talk • contribs).

1. See, that's just it: I am not letting you pull me into a discussion about "child porn or rape images" because those are completely irrelevant to the context of this article and your mention of them only serves to imply guilt by association. The premise of my argument concerning an illustration of a legal sex act has absolutely nothing to do with the practice or depiction of criminal activities. If you want to argue about posting prurient images of rape, go to Talk:Sexual abuse.

2. This specific image (Image:Bbsk05-6.jpg is no longer of any concern, it is unusable due to a copyright conflict. If there is evidence that Wikipedia is hosting a photograph that features a person who was coerced into, or exploited during, its production, then that image could be illegal and should be deleted. However barring all visual content associated with the pornographic industry because of speculative claims about human rights abuses is an untenable position. There are many responsible and professional pornographic actors who would resent any implication that they were criminally manipulated into working for the industry. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 00:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linkimage

Notwithstanding any copyright issues, I propose we linkimage any photo that we decide to show.. It is a very simple solution that keeps the informaiton readily available here, but gives people the option to read the text first and then decide if they want to see a picture. Johntex\^talk 21:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Totally disagree with the link image idea. The photo at the top of the article is not patently obscene and for an individual who hasn't read the article to fully understand what it represents they would need to at least already be familiar with the concept (or similiar) depicted therein. Why this push for pre-censorship? Netscott 01:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not censorship if it's not something imposed upon us. Why would you oppose giving someone the chance to read what bukkake is before seeing a picture of it? It is not a common word in English and it is totally reasonable to expect that many people will come here not knowing what to expect on this page. Johntex\^talk 02:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't call it censorship, but pre-censorship the problem I see in making such a move is that it begins to set up a slippery slope toward actual censorship. I think the argument that a person is going to possibly come here with no inkling about what the topic of Bukkake may cover is false one. Don't forget about Wikipedia's not-censored disclaimer, it's there for a reason. My view on being against this idea is in accord with the reasoning behind why the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy image isn't link-imaged... that is what the article is about after all! Netscott 02:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the decision not to linkimage at Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy is also a bad decision. Muslims have a right to be able to read the text about the controversy without being immediately offended by the image, in my opinion. Still, I think there is more of an arguemnt to show the iamge there, than there is here. The reason being is that the cartoon article is actually about the image in question, whereas here the article is about the general practice and the picture is just an illustration. Johntex\^talk 16:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, browsers have the Block images from upload option. No one is obligated to see any particular imagery anywhere on the internet. I don't take the no-censorship view lightly and have been mindful of those who are not inclined to want to see images they do not agree with.

I noted a number of hours ago an editor removed the image from this article but I did not revert it... I've never edited on this article and don't know what the true consensus is for displaying images on this article or not and until I do I'm not inclined to involve myself in editing relative to this question. But if an image is going to be available relative to a given article I am nearly 100% opposed to it's being link imaged due to my earlier slippery slope concerns and the potential for censorship becoming policy. Netscott 17:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think asking users to turn off all images is a good solution. People come to encycolpedias, dictionaries, googele, etc., to look things up. Sometimes they may know what the term means and want more info, other times they may not even know what it means. There is always the first time to hear about a new term, so it is perfectly reasonable to expect that some visitors here don't know the meaning of the term. Therefore, it would be unreasonable for people to turn off their images prior to visiting the page. Also, please consider that not everyone knows as much about computers as you do - they may not even know how to turn the images off. Johntex\^talk 17:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It may surprise you to know it but I actually agree with you about the block image loading part. Netscott 18:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Then how about placing the image further down in the article? If someone is generally offended or disgusted by the concept as it is desribed in the introduction, it's doubtful they'll scroll down. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 19:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that is an idea worth considering, certainly. On the pro-side, it gives people a chance to at least see what the word means before they scroll down - especially if there is the equivalent of a "spoiler-type" warning first. Also, it is very easy to do. On the con-side, some people have very high screen resolutions, and this is a fairly short article, so for some people it may be immediately viewable even if moved down the page. Johntex\^talk 19:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Alternately the image might be displayed like this:

A typical example of bukkake.

Image:Bbsk05-6.jpg

^anetode╞┬╡ 02:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

This is how the Autofellatio image is displayed, because it lives on the MediaWiki:Bad_image_list. You could always flag the bukkake image the same way. Earwig 03:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to the "slippery slope" argument offered above against "pre-censorship": the "slippery slope" concept as you are using it is not a logical argument, it is a logical fallacy. It is premised on the idea that if we censor apples, we will end up censoring oranges, because we are unable to differentiate between apples and oranges. But we are, so we won't.--Mrnorwood 20:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proper wording vs "heterosexual bias"

Someone once rewrote the descriptions to remove "heterosexual bias", whatever that means. But the changes made for bad grammar and ambiguity. "They" is never a proper pronoun to use for a single person. Correct grammar is to use "he" unless there is a high likelihood that the target is female, in which case "she" is used. (BTW, "He/she" and "he or she" are not proper grammar, either, despite gaining ground in recent years.) Furthermore, use of "they" implied that the non-targets were participating in things that previous, non-PC versions made clear only the target was doing.

Also, it's unclear to talk of a participant opening "the mouth", as that implies it's a mouth belonging to someone or something other than the target. It needs to be "her mouth", etc.

Since the target is usually female, "they" has been changed to "she", "their" to "her", etc. Where it didn't matter, wording was not changed from the non-"heterosexually biased" version.

Finally, is it really a bias to write about the most common version of what happens? Isn't 99% of the time the target a female? Sheesh, PC police, much? How about if you really have an issue with it, include a note at the end that the target, though usually female, can be a male as well? That sure beats making things read horribly in pursuit of cheering on some political goal.

[edit] 99 % a female?

The claim that "the target is 99 % a female" can only be made from someone restricting himself / herself to the consumption of exclusively heterosexual porn - thus being exactly the kind of hetero bias talked about here. --Tmg1165 09:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes 99 % (or 95%) a female

A google search for "bukkake" and the phrase "on her face" returns 479,000 hits. A google search for "bukkake" and "on his face" returns 24,800 hits. This yields 95.08% instances of female targets (479000/503800), and 4.92% instances of male targets (24800/503800). Broadening the search to 'bukkake "on her"' vs. 'bukkake "on his"' (which, note, is more inaccurate) still yields 289000 for "on her" vs. 108000 for "on his", still indicating that the overwhelming majority of labeled bukkake material on the web involves a female target. Furthermore, the more bizarre kinds of bukkake (such as ejaculation on food which is then eaten) tend to originate in Japan and typically show only female recipients. The numbers indicate that there exists a bias towards female targets in available bukkake material. Note that this does not necessarily imply a "heterosexual bias," since bukkake, even with a female target, does involve a group of several men collectively participating in a sexual activity with only one woman; such an activity perhaps cannot be easily classified as either "heterosexual" or "homosexual".

Other quantitative evidence is of course welcome.

It doesn't really matter, there's no reason to be gender specific in the article. Sure, we should mention that the vast majority of bukkake is male-on-female, but I see no reason to change every single pronoun. --Golbez 06:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation?

Does the prounciation of Bukkake sound like Booka-key or Buck-cake? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.138.209.159 (talk • contribs).

I don't speak from a Reliable Source, but I'm fairly certain it's the first one (three syllables). ^L_Wizard @ 01:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The best way I can put it is Boo-ka-kay. So yes, three syllables. Bu kka ke. --Golbez 02:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[bu'ka:ke]. —Nightst a llion (?) 12:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin?

Travel Sick - a british show - visited Japan recently and I believe they said that the word came from a tradition that sailors would bury a maiden except for her head and then gather around her and ejaculate on her. Presumably to get rid of any sexual desires before a long journey.

[edit] General Immaturity

(15 Sep 06) Many sentences in this article seem to be of the juvenile sort (porn slang, etc). Believe or not, this article seems to be attracting a lot of vandalizers too.

[edit] Live Bukkake

I would like to know if I can add my forum Live Bukkake in this article? Because it is always removed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.78.73.92 (talk • contribs) .

No, you can't. Per the guideline WP:EL, we don't link to forums. ^L_Wizard @ 20:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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