Talk:Buddhism

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Welcome to Talk:Buddhism.

Loving-kindness to you and yours!

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Abolitionism Religion status
Vegetarianism

Contents

[edit] Open Tasks

Open tasks for Buddhism
[[edit]]
Newly added
[[edit]]
Editing /
formatting
[[edit]]
Missing articles
[[edit]]
Expansion
Concepts

Culture

History

People

Schools

Texts

Other

 Concepts
  • Six Sensebases of Salayatanas
  • Theory of Magical Net in Tibetan Buddhism/sgyu 'phrul drwa ba/Mayajala
  • Threefold Path/Three Trainings
  • Khenchen
  • Wang (Tibetan Buddhism)
  • Lung (Tibetan Buddhism)
  • Yeshe
  • Transmission (Buddhism)
  • Vidyadhara
  • Rigdzin

Deities

  • Brahma Sahampati
  • Maha Brahma
  • Vaishramana

Organizations

  • Rangjung Yeshe Translations and Publications
  • Tsadra Foundation
  • Chagdud Gonpa
  • Dedrol Gonpa

People

  • Anagarika Munindra
  • Gordon Douglas
  • Jampe Lhakhang
  • Kyichu Lhakhang
  • James Valby
  • Ives Waldo
  • Richard Barron
  • Sarat Chandra Das
  • Tenga Rinpoche
  • Karl Brunnhoelzl
  • Gyurme Dorje
  • Ngulchu Thogmed
  • Purana Kassapa
  • Makkhali Gosala
  • Ajitakesakambali
  • Pukudha Kaccayana
  • Sanjaya Belatthiputta
  • Nigantha Nathaputta
  • Shabkar/zabs dkar
  • Adzam Drugpa
  • Padampa Sangye
  • Letro Lingpa (Tib. las 'phro gling pa)
  • Sangye Lingpa
  • Mahasiddha Humkara
  • Achoe Rinpoche
  • various modern teachers

Texts

  • Bakabrahma Sutta
  • Itivuttaka
  • Kama Sutta, contrast with Kama Sutra
  • Kevatta Sutta
  • Maha-Saccaka Sutta
  • Maha-salayatanika Sutta
  • Maha-samaya Sutta
  • Maha-sihanada Sutta
  • Potthapada Sutta
  • Upanisa Sutta
  • Metta Sutta
  • Udana
  • Nyingthig Yabshi
  • The Thirty-Seven Practices of a Bodhisattva
  • Entering the Way of a Bodhisattva
  • Phagme Nyingthig (Tib. spelling: 'chi med 'phags ma'i snying thig, Innermost Essence teachings of the Immortal Bodhisattva [Arya Tara])

Other

  • Buddhist sculpture
  • Ten oxherding pictures
  • Tsechu
  • Torma
  • Buddhist Studies
  • Differences between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism
  • Differences between Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana?
  • RangjungYesheWiki
  • Kamtshang
  • Five Sisters of Long Life/Thon Thing Gyalmo
  • Shedra
  • Buddhist Pilgrimage
 Buddhism stubs

Concepts

Culture

History

Organizations

People

Schools

Texts

Teachings

Other
[[edit]]
Merges
[[edit]]
Discussions
[[edit]]
Crossreferences

Please see also Wikipedia:WikiProject Buddhism

[edit] Formatting Changes

Sorry, I don't know how to get this in the proper place, so please so one move it for me.

I moved the category bar so it was not overlapping the exteranl links. You're welcome.

H-BOMB 19:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I also moved the eight-spoked wheel picture next to The Eight-Fold Path section. I moved the Series Box to the top of the article so it is easier to find. And finally in order to due the last change I had to move the picture of the statue of Gautama lower thus creating less empty space next to the table of contents.

H-BOMB 16:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with the formatting change which swaps the series box for the lead image. It uglifies the article and doesn't seem necessary.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pali Proper names dictionary

It seems to be ok to use the entires of the Pali Proper Names dictionary (see User_talk:Samahita). I wonder: maybe it would be good to have a template to indicate this, as is done with the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Brittannica? But before this happens, we need to be sure it is definitively all right to do so. Greetings, Sacca 06:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interview with Chan Khong

This interesting interview with her is -beside other- about women and buddhism, in times of Buddha Shakyamuni as well as nowadays. http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/clubs/buddhism/dailylife/khong.html Is there a wikipedia site about women and or women in buddhism, maybe named differently? Austerlitz 88.72.2.212 08:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Insult Of Dalai Lama

Dear Buddhist friends on the article Indian Buddhist Movement discussion page the anit-Buddhist active Hindu users are insulting His Holiness Dalai Lama as Hindutva wadi. These Hindutvawadis laid riots in Gujarat riots as well as Hindu Castiesm and Hindu Untouchability has destroyed the peace in whole India. Need explanation from the Buddhist world as the Hindu especially caste Brahmins are destorting the Buddhist History as well as now they are also insulting Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama has participated in INEB Buddhist Conference in Nagpur in 2005. Nagpur http://www.jambudvipa.org/index.html The users primarily involved are vandalism on the article Indian Buddhist Movement are Bakatalk and Hkelkar. These are branding Dalai Lama as Hindutva supporter and anti Indian Buddhist. Dhammafriend 14:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indian Buddhist Movement

I am trying to give present status of Buddhist Movement in India but the anti-Buddhist users especially caste Brahmins are reverting and distorting the article. Need to concentrate on the important article regarding Indian Buddhist Movement. On 2nd October 2006 thousands of people from various castes converted to Buddhism at Nagpur in India. Laxman Mane a tribal leader also converted to Buddhism. But my updates are always reverted without any discussions or proper explanation Dhammafriend 14:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning repeated removal of critical links

I have posted a link, which is very relevant and scholarly, several times and it has been removed every time. Is this a propaganda page of Buddhism, or a serious page that shows all views and sides of the issue? The articles on Christianity and Islam are actually more fair and balanced than this article on Buddhism, which is quite surprising.

The article which I have linked "Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth", is critical, but fair and factual, about Buddhism in Tibet. Indeed, the article actually quotes the Dalai Lama of Tibet!

This link is: #1 scholarly, #2 a unique perspective compared to the other links #3 informative #4 balanced.

Please see to it that this link, which is much needed to offer a balanced view, is not removed.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Thank you 65.240.227.45 19:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This article isn't about the Dalai Lama or Tibet. So, this link really isn't relevant to this article, to say nothing of the fact that, in my opinion, it isn't very scholarly or balanced, either.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Totally agree with Nat here rudy 11:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation problem

This sentence doesn't make sense in English, but I can't correct it because I don't know what it was supposed to mean. "It is essential sprit of when th passions of life is true of death." Art LaPella 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhism_by_country

I took the "up to 708 million" reference from this page. It derives from the numbers at Buddhism_by_country, which in turn were edited a year ago to reflect estimates of the Chinese Buddhist population which are dramatically at odds with other sources and which were clear violations of WP:OR. The number at Buddhism_by_country is now about 416 million, much closer to adherents.com, and I would guess that estimates for other countries on that page were also changed. I fixed only China and North Korea and don't have time to look at the rest. Anyway, with those numbers, the 708 million is pretty far out of line. bikeable (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

For consistency, should you also change the sentence "Estimates of the number of Buddhists vary but the most common figure today is 708 million" under the "present state of buddhism" section? --Llygadebrill 01:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Good call. I fixed it. bikeable (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Hello. As a new user, I cannot add new links to the page.

www.theravada.org.za is a Buddhist Centre in Cape Town, South Africa. It would be great to have this as a link on the Buddhist page, as it is a terrific organisation for Buddhists and people interested in Buddhism in this city.

Briefly: Hout Bay Theravada Buddhist Centre is a voluntary association of people interested in the practice of Theravada Buddhism and meditation. The association promotes well being, equanimity, non-harmful behaviour and tolerance amongst people and respect for all sentient beings. HBTBC is committed to interfaith dialogue and understanding.

Could this be added to the list of external links? Is it a candidate?

Thank you.

[edit] Is there any restriction for this article?

Why do all the sections of this article can not be edited in a normal way? Is it because the article falls into the category of Semi-protected? Can anyone tell me why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.64.42.194 (talk • contribs).

The page is semi-protected because of recent vandalism. New accounts and IPs can't edit. --Karafias Talk • Contributions 02:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, and welcome to Wikipedia. Yes, if an article is "semiprotected," it can only be edited by established users (those with a login account and a certain amount of edits, I believe). Articles are usually not protected or semi-protected except to prevent vandalism by anonymous users, and then (usually) it is only a temporary measure. The optimum solution is to make a login account--if you are not able to do so or do not wish to do so, article protection is usually temporary. Justin Eiler 02:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

WOW, I have noticed that the following articles also have lockers. Are these coincident or something going on?

These articles are popular, and because of that they are frequent victims of vandalism.
Could you do me a favor? Any time you post--not on the articles themselves, but every time on a talk page--could you sign your posts by adding four tildes to your post? Like this: ~~~~. That helps us know who we're talking to. Thanks. :) Justin Eiler 04:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article contradicts itself! (on the estimated number of buddhists worldwide)

In the introduction, the article asserts that there are estimated to be between "200 and 500 million buddhists worldwide", with most estimates around 350 million. Yet, in the "Present state of Buddhism" section, it states there are estimated to be "708 million" buddhists worldwide.

That's because the number was recently changed. If you look up I think you can still see the discussion. Zazaban 00:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it to say "between 350 and 400 million". Given the sorry state of Buddhism by country, I don't think we can do better than that. Adherents.com gives 376 million. bikeable (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does this mean?

I have cut out this sentence: "It is essential spirit of when the passions of life is true of death" because it is poor English -- it is not clear what the contributor means.--Stephen Hodge 18:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] This Buddhism article too Indian-centric

It seems like this article would be quite a challenge for the uninitiated reader trying to navigate through all these multisyllabic Sanskrit/Pali words. You just don't see Christianity explained all in Hebrew and Aramaic. Christian terms predominantly derive from Latin and Western vernacular instead. My point is, Mahayana Buddhism was Sinicized by the Chinese during 1st century AD and nearly all surviving scriptures of Mahayana come directly from Chinese sources, which use the Chinese language to express Mahayana Buddhism, and rarely full transliterations of Sanskrit. It was the Sinicized version of Mahayana that then spread to the rest of East Asia, not the Sanskrit version. The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans all use the same set of Chinese terminology for Mahayana which often differs greatly from the original Sanskrit. Many new sutras and commentaries were written indigenously in Chinese. Yet this English Wikipedia article uses the Sanskrit terms exclusively (even putting cute but unnecessary little accents on the Sanskrit words). The reality is that Mahayana Buddhism is practically extinct outside of Sinosphere East Asia, but from reading this article, you would have the impression that it is still fluorishing in the subcontinent, and that there is somehow an Indian Mahayana and a Chinese Mahayana, and their only difference is one of translation. This is simply not the case. Even though Christianity might have started its humble roots in Aramaic, it doesn't mean that Aramaic should be the primary language used to introduce the concepts of Christianity, which for all purposes was compiled and developed by the West, and not in the Middle East. The same applies for Mahayana Buddhism vis-a-vis China. This article on Buddhism is entirely too Indian-centric. As an East Asian Buddhist, I feel that my reading this article on Buddhism and particularly parts of Mahayana Buddhism is the equivalent of a Christian reading an article on Christianity but finding that the article is mostly about the early Jewish origins and practices of Christianity. While it may be factual, the balance is clearly off. I have tried to slightly correct the balance a little bit, but much more work needs to be done on this article. --Naus 06:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

'The reality is that Mahayana Buddhism is practically extinct outside of Sinosphere East Asia'. That doesn't seem to be correct. For example, Tibetan Buddhism combines Hinayana sutra teachings, Mahayana sutra teachings, Vajrayana tantric teachings and, sometimes, Dzogchen. As far as I know, Mahayana sutra teachings could be described as pretty prominent presence in Tibetan Buddhism.
'...English Wikipedia article uses the Sanskrit terms exclusively...' Some Tibetan teachers use a lot of Sanskrit terminology. I suspect that Sanskrit terms are easier for Westerners (including speakers of Russian) compared to Tibetan terminology.--Klimov 12:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This is kind of beating around the bush. The vast majority of Mahayana Buddhism (in the magnitude of 180 million) is taught and expressed in Sinitic (Sino-XXX) forms, not in Sanskrit. Thus Sanskrit is alien to 99%+ of the world's practictioners of Mahayana Buddhism, so it's really strange indeed that Wikipedia previously used only Sanskrit in sections about Mahayana and spent maybe about two sentences introducing East Asian Buddhism, which is essentially what Mahayana is all about today. Very disingenious IMO. The Chinese development and propagation of Mahayana Buddhism is incredibly significant. East Asian civilization would be greatly different had the Chinese not embraced Mahayana, and Mahayana would have just became an obscure apocryphal form of Buddhism, and not the dominant tradition it is today. --Mamin27 17:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In English, we tend to use Sanskrit terms for Buddhist jargon. I think our goal here should be to use the terms that are most likely to be useful to our readers. It's true that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese use the same terms in characters, but these are not of much use to the vast majority of English readers; when you write them out phonetically, they are no longer the same words.
In a lot of cases, for the terms we are discussing here, the reader can simply click on a blue link to see a full article about that subject. In those cases, it seems quite extraneous to include Chinese characters after the word. However, I don't think this is intended at all to imply something about where modern Mahayana Buddhism is practiced. I fail to see what is disingenuous about it.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 18:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Parenthesis can be used to insert Chinese characters. You have Pali/Sanskrit here, how many people read Sanskrit in its Indic script? I would wager a lot less than the number of people who can read Chinese characters (which would include most East Asians). Indic scripts like Sanskrit can't even be displayed on most Western PCs, while most PCs can display East Asian scripts. I am not saying every single Sanskrit term should be accompanied with Chinese characters, but the terms relevant to Mahayana Buddhism should be. The person who continues to delete my insertions is not being sincere with himself. Mahayana can claim 180 million followers only because of its Sinicized form. You take the Sinicized form away from Mahayana, you would be lucky to have 500,000 followers.
The Sanskrit/Pali terms in this article are also transcribed with accent marks. There is nothing "English" about them; English avoids accents like the plague. These accent marks should be removed from this article except when first introduced as pronunciation guides in parenthesis. This is why this article is disingenious. This article spends so much effort in making Buddhism appear Indic, which is quite ironic considering that Buddhism is overwhelmingly practiced outside of the Indian subcontinent and outside of Indic languages today. This article isn't just about the History or Origins of Buddhism. It's supposed to be a general article about Buddhism as a major religion in the world. The international aspect of Buddhism was added to this article as if an afterthought. --Naus 07:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The Indic characters exist because the names/terms are Indic in origin. If Buddha, dhamma, sangha etc are Indic words, they have to be written as they are, regardless of Mahayana Buddhism now being practised elsewhere. Tomorrow, China might become non-Buddhist and Portugal may become Buddhist, we can't change all these terms to portugese and give them representation in this general article on Buddhism. Probably you are looking at an article like Buddhism in China to place Chinese terms and characters in. Wikipedia is not a democracy to count people who practise concepts described here, and take a majority vote. ­ ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 21:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The marks applied to the letters are not "accents" as User Naus seems to think. They are called "diacritics" -- quite different to accents. But as I have mentioned elsewhere, this is a matter od Wiki style. Look at the manual of Style (Indic naming Conventions) in the box at the top of this page ! If you don't like accents, please remove all the tone marks from the Pinyin transcriptions throughout the various Buddhist related articles -- these "stupid marks" are meaningless to anybody who doesn't speak Chinese.--Stephen Hodge 03:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I never said diacritical marks can't be used. BUT THEY DO NOT NEED TO BE USED EVERY SINGLE TIME THE WORD APPEARS IN THE TEXT. Maybe you should review Chinese articles, as the tone marks of Pinyin transcriptions ARE NOT written on every single occurrence of said Pinyin word, merely on the FIRST occurrence. Before making irrelevant remarks, perhaps you should read my comments more carefully. And your quib about accent marks vs. diacritical marks is non sequitur to the discussion. --Naus 18:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alteration (GMT 2006-11-22 23:47)

I removed ", with the name Siddhārtha Gautama (Pāli: सिद्धर्थ गौतम)" because the Buddha was not born with that name, as the article stated, but received it after birth, or so I assume. I did not replace the text with anything because I decided that the name could be discussed in full under the article devoted to the Buddha. Kipholbeck 23:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

"Born with" or "born as" one's given name is a figure of speech, meaning that the person was given that name at approximately the time of her or his birth. That is, I think, the case with Siddhārtha Gautama. I also think that name is widely-known and significant enough to merit inclusion in this article.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Nat. I enjoy being as precise as possible; I admit it :). In this case, I would like to cite the following example: to a doctor, there is a very clear difference between a baby who is born with an illness and one who acquires it, say, one day after birth. To me, that difference is also very clear and applies in the case of naming as well. — Kipholbeck 00:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
In that case, we would have to change the part of WP:MOSBIO#Names that mandates this style: "(from Bill Clinton): William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III on August 19, 1946)" and all the articles that have followed it.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest using the same format as the Encyclopedia Britannica, where the article on Bill Clinton contains the following: "born August 19, 1946, Hope, Arkansas, U.S."; "byname of William Jefferson Clinton"; "original name William Jefferson Blythe III". To me, it is simply incorrect to say that someone is born with a name, unless they have in fact been named before birth (which of course is possible now that the sex of a baby can be determined before birth). It would not matter if there was no room for misunderstanding. But there is. For example, babies are not always named immediately after birth. The vagueness of an expression such as "born John Smith" becomes more apparent, I think, in cases where a child is not named until a week, a month, a year after birth. I have read of such cases. The Britannica usage remains clear under this circumstance, but the current Wikipedia usage does not. — Kipholbeck 02:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I agree that "born John Smith" is completely incorrect if taken literally, but I thought it was an accepted figure of speech. It also can be vague in some cases. I'm not a diehard on this issue by any lights, but I would prefer it if you take the matter up at WP:MOSBIO rather than on this specific article.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 03:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you are right to say that it is an accepted figure of speech. It is the potential for vagueness that made me want to change it. Since, as you have pointed out, it is part of current recommended Wikipedia usage, I will do as you prefer and make my suggestion at WP:MOSBIO. Regards, Andrew. — Kipholbeck 20:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The discussion can now be found on the WP:MOSBIO Talk page. --MCB 21:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact the name Siddhattha/Siddhartha occurs only in comparatively late texts like the Apadana, so it can't be considered as historical fact. Peter jackson 17:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of one title for the Buddha

I intend to change most occurrences of "Gautama Buddha" to "the Buddha", because I think this will make the article easier to read and understand for people unfamiliar with Buddhism. At present, both the above terms are used where just the latter would do. The first occurrence of "the Buddha" will link to the article on Gautama Buddha. Kipholbeck 00:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's fine, although we should be mindful of the pitfalls, which are that a not-terribly-overlong treatment of Buddhism will mention some other buddhas, such as Amitabha, who eclipses Shakyamuni in some strands of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism, as I recall, believes that some of the major bodhisattvas (who are quite prominently the subjects of devotion) are also buddhas.
It might be somewhat confusing to link "the Buddha" to Gautama Buddha, since there is a separate article on Buddha. I'm not sure.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 04:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I support the mention of the Buddha for Gautama Buddha. In common language, people also say the Buddha, referring to Gauatama Buddha, while they frequently have not heard of Gautama. From the context in which it is used, it will be clear whether the person of the title is meant. Greetings, Sacca 10:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your vote, Sacca :). - Kipholbeck 20:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I will try to stay alert to the pitfalls you mention, Nat, and react appropriately. In the case of the first instance of "the Buddha", I rephrased it as follows: "Gautama Buddha (hereinafter referred to as "the Buddha")". Regards from Andrew. — Kipholbeck 20:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


Oppose. Gautama Buddha isn't the only Buddha. If you want to make this article easier to read, first remove all those stupid macron accents on every one of these Sanskrit/Pali Buddhist terms. Others have said in their argument against my Chinese characters in parenthesis for the Mahayana section that "this is an English Wikipedia"; well newsflash for these people, full Sanskrit transcriptions with accents used in in-body text isn't English either. It's like writing Tokyo as Tōkyō throughout the Tokyo article. Which would be ridiculous. If these accents are not removed, this article is Indic-centric and POV, not to mention a visual eyesore for uninitated readers. --Naus 08:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

At the top of this page, there is a box which directs one to the Wiki style manual. Look under the Indic tab. Using the diacritics which you find so irksome is the preferred Wiki style -- after all, Wiki does have pretensions to be an encyclopedia.--Stephen Hodge 11:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. As style manual referred to by Mr. Hodge implies, whether or not we add diacritics Indic words mentioned in this article is entirely a stylistic matter, and has nothing to do with POV or NPOV.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links.

I just cut down the links. Most of them were pretty off-topic or POV. Zazaban 23:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Unless there are severe objections, I think I'll restore the link for Access to Insight. While it contains some content specific to the Thai Forest Tradition, it is also the best and longest-lived source on the web for free English translations from the Pali Canon. It also has very good overviews of Buddhism in general, with a great deal of textual references. --Clay Collier 01:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That appears to be about only Theravada. It should be there and not here. Zazaban 01:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit strange consistency, in an article on American politics, would you delete a link to the Democrats? rudy 01:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If you want to have a site about Theravada you also need one on Mahayana and Vajrayana. If somebody wants to go to a Theravada website they would look at the Theravada article. Zazaban 02:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The texts of the Pali Canon are present (sometimes incompletely, and sometimes in modified forms) in the Canons of the Mahayana schools as well. As such, ATI is a commonly cited source of information about basic Buddhist teachings (the Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Paticca Samipada, The Fire Sermon, etc.) that are common to several traditions. Besides this fact, if there were comperably comprehensive sites for other specific Buddhist traditions, I don't see any reason why they ought not be linked off of the Buddhism article. If we're going to give people an overview of Buddhism, linkage to comprehensive intros and translations for the major traditions would be nice to have. --Clay Collier 09:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Unless there's some response here, I'd like to add the ATI link back in. --Clay Collier 21:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link vendetta?

Why is this external link continually removed? http://americanbuddhist.net/ American Buddhist Net: Buddhist News & Forums. It seems to be an active site chock full of interesting information. I sympathize with the (anon IP) editor who keeps getting reverted on it. The reversions are particularly annoying because they give no reasoning. I think the link should stay. Hu 00:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it is geared to americans and this is an international website. Zazaban 01:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, come off it. Of course this is an international website. But the linked site gives a lot of international news about Buddhism and information resources. If Wikipedia were purged of every link that was tainted by being "geared" to a less than perfectly international group then Wikipedia would be considerably impoverished. The fact that the links were deleted without explanation makes me wonder if the editors think that Americans are incapable of being good buddhists or have nothing to contribute to international buddhism. A site like Wikipedia becomes international not by limiting itself to perfectly international sites, but by including enough diversity to become international. Hu 02:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Your previous post violated rules about assuming good faith and no attacking.

Ok then, but I don't see people complaining whne all the sites geared only to canada or england or such are deleted. I am not saying anywhere that it should not be on Wikipedia, but certianly not on the summary article. perhaps in Buddhism in America?

And by the way, Wikipedia has been trying to keep links at a minimum, so I hardly think that a small amount of links would be considered a problem. I never said that a group needs to be "international," but simply not geared only to a specific country. Zazaban 04:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you cool off before you accuse me of violating rules. Your anger over this issue made you so hasty that you didn't sign your criticism on the user's talk page. Your language there was intemperate when you said "no place on an international site", in complete contradiction to your statement here "I am not saying anywhere that it should not be on Wikipedia" in this slightly more public discussion. You have been rebuked on your talk page for over-zealous deletion of other external links. Besides, if you are so concerned about minimizing links, why are you adding junk links like this one: [1]? Have you even looked at the link in question? Only about 3 percent of the links on the main page there are North American. The rest are general or international. Stop claiming that it is "geared to a specific country". Let it stand. Hu 05:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

So you're now trying to discredit me? I deleted one bad link in a huge bunch of horrible ones. When I wrote that on that guy's userpage, I hadn't thought of putting it in another area. Dord actually is something people meditate on sometimes. Oh yea, I hardly see putting a warning on somebody's userpage as "critizism". I am not angry over this at all. And you're the one who needs to cool off. most of your last comments were nothing more that personal attacks; in violation of WP:NPA Zazaban 15:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Question

Can someone tell what is the reference for the quotation "I teach one thing and one thing only: suffering and the end of suffering"?Robert Daoust 17:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It could be a paraphrase or alternate translation of the end of the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (MN 63): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html --Clay Collier 21:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The end of that Sutta goes like this: "And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me. So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared."
The paragraph with the quotation in our article goes like this : "The aim of Buddhist practice is to put an end to the sorrow (dukkha, Sanskrit/Pali: दुक्ख) of existence. In the words of the Buddha: 'I teach one thing and one thing only: suffering and the end of suffering'. To achieve this state of the end of suffering (Nirvana or Nirodha), adherents train and purify the mind by following the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, eventually arriving at an understanding of the true nature of all things. In this way all ignorance and unhappiness ends, and liberation is attained."
First, I object to the use of quotation marks for such a paraphrasal quotation. Second, it seems that there is a misinterpretation : the paragraph in our article states that the Buddha teaches nothing else than the four noble truths, and especially that there is no other aim in Buddhist practice than the aim of the noble eightfold path to end dukkha, while in fact Buddha's teaching concerns many other things, and the main goal beyond the end of dukkha, he says, is the holy life, enlightenment, nirvana etc.
In other words, though suffering is an important concern in Buddhism, it is a secondary, subordinated, concern and it is misleading to represent it as if it was a very first, supreme or even exclusive concern (as it tends to be represented, especially in some Westerners' perception). Therefore, I propose to change the paragraph somewhat, yet I don't know how exactly. -- Robert Daoust 18:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest just removing it. I think the quotation is not intended to be a paraphrase, but, instead, it's just an apocryphal quotation.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
That was the sutra I assumed the quote came from, too, although it could be from another source. If so, I think it's a fairly rough paraphrasing of the sutra text, but not too far off. In any case, the quote ("I teach...") is used so commonly to represent Buddhism, notably by Thich Nhat Hanh, that I would prefer to retain it. If necessary, we could change that sentence to say,
This is illustrated by a phrase commonly attributed to the Buddha, "I teach one thing and one thing only: suffering and the end of suffering".
After all, it certainly is both common and attributed to the Buddha. bikeable (talk) 22:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

(1) The tripartite division of Buddhism is imposed by outsiders. Chinese and Tibetan Buddhists would identify more with each other than with Theravada. (2) Having a section called Buddhism after the Buddha immediately after the section on Buddhist doctrines suggests that the Buddha taught those doctrines, which is not unquestioned historical fact. Peter jackson 17:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Further to (1), presumably the Tibetans would regard Shingon as Vajrayana, albeit of a lower grade than themselves, which would rather mess up this classification. Peter jackson 18:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

I'm not going to touch it, but the intro sounds a little POVy.

In what way? GizzaChat © 09:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In the Introduction, it would be good to have some words on the variety of beliefs and rituals in order to glimpse readily what is Buddhism... Robert Daoust 20:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But ... there is such a profusion of them.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's say it so then! There is this paragraph (a bit modified by me) which was removed from older versions of the Article, and with which something could be done perhaps: "While Buddhism does not deny the existence of supernatural beings (see for instance here), it does not ascribe to them power for creation, salvation or judgment. Like humans, they are regarded as able to affect worldly events, and so some Buddhist schools associate with them via rituals (see for instance [citation needed] )." (but rituals are addressed to the Buddha also...). Strangely there is not a word on rituals in the whole Article!

And then, a short sentence would be necessary also about meditation...

Also, Buddhism is said to be a psychology, but the Article doesn't show it at all either. Robert Daoust 17:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] INDIA should be in the first paragraph

U know it still amazes me....Buddha lived in India....became enlightened in India....taught in India...died in India....and was born on TECHNICALLY what is NOW called Nepal (in those days it was all one land)....and yet....in the first paragraph there is no mention that Buddhism originated from India....ive seen this before and i think its a joke ARYAN818 03:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was historical India, and in those days India was not the country it is today. You will see that Siddhartha was from a Sakya kingdom and that at that time Lumbini was in the kingdom although it is now in Nepal. It is also documented that the Buddha went to the kingdom ruled by Bimbisara, another at the time and also Kosala as well. If you read the Gautama Buddha article I'm sure it points out the relevant that Bodh Gaya is in modern Bihar and Varanasi, the place of the first sermon and the parinibbana occurred at Kusinagar, both of which are in Uttar Pradesh. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
India as a nation exist only bcoz of the British. Before the british came there are only some petty Kingdom in India sub-continent & the biggest kingdom was the Mongul. Before the british come there was no such thing as "India Kingdom". India is a nation created by the British, it consist of some petty kingdom put together in a Union & was named by the British as "India". 218.208.24.235 06:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There have been times when almost all of India was under the control of one ruler such as the Maurya Empire. Still, the subcontinent may not have been united politically but for the last 3000 years have been united culturally. This "civilisation" (not Kingdom/Empire) that has existed in the subcontinent for the past 3000 years is known as Ancient India, so one may argue that Buddha indeed did live in "Ancient India." GizzaChat © 08:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
India united culturally for 3000 years? Don't be ridiculous. --Naus 18:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing section on Buddhism during the the lifetime of the Buddha

At the moment there is a section on Buddhism after the passing of the Buddha, but nothing during the lifetime of the Buddha. Thus, I feel this is a problem, as it doesn't explain at all how the religion arose or anything. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Every tradition would argue something different about that i'm afriad. Zazaban 05:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, we present them all as per NPOV - is there any specific issue - we have sections on the teachings of each tradidtion. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misrepresentation of Nirvana

I protest against the false definition of Nirvana in the Wikipedia article. Nirvana is the extinction or extinguishment of craving, attachment, willing, or desire. It is not the gaining of wisdom, knowledge, or enlightenment. The latter concept has its own designation, Bodhi. As a result of Bodhi, Nirvana can occur. As a result of Nirvana, suffering and pain can be alleviated. User:Nat Krause seems to think that this is all my idea. However, it is available to anyone who studies Buddhist literature without preconceptions, Western or otherwise.Lestrade 22:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Cite sources.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 23:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

See [2] Look under "Nibbāna": absolute extinction of that life-affirming will. This is synonymous with Schopenhauer's description of the denial of the will-to-live as the extreme of ascetic holiness.Lestrade 23:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

The source you have given itself says that Nirvana is the "absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death". Isn't that precisely what you removed from the article in this edit?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Nibbāna, according to the definition, is 'freedom from desire' "Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery." The deliverance that is mentioned in the definition is not absolute, as stated, with its inferential "therewith." Rather, it is relative and depends on a change of attitude or perspective, resulting from the extinction of attachment, grasping, craving, desiring, and willing.

We freely acknowledge that what remains after the complete abolition of the will is, for all who are still full of will, assuredly nothing. But also conversely, to those in whom the will has turned and denied itself, this very real world of ours with all its suns and milky ways, is — nothing.

—The World as Will and Representation, Vol. I, §71

" ' Master, tell us about Nirvana,' Mahatmi asked the Blessed One. The Buddha replied: ' The word "Nirvana" has many different meanings for different people —' " (The Diamond Sutra, "Nirvana", Concord Grove Press ISBN 0-88695-004-X) It appears that the word Nirvana quickly became ambiguous after it was first spoken and began to stand for multiple concepts. After 2500 years of translation, by many writers in many countries, it is almost empty of meaning. This very fact is celebrated in Mahayana Buddhism and in Nagarjuna's psychology.

Siddhartha Gautama Sakyamuni, one of many "Buddhas" or enlightened people, did not write. His words were later recorded by different people and were further communicated and translated by many more throughout the millennia. This is like a sentence that is passed around a room through a dozen people and ends very differently from what it was at the start. The importance of preserving original written texts becomes evident. Religions and philosophies start with an individual's spoken or written words and from there the thoughts deteriorate when they are sifted through the minds of lesser persons. Thus endless textual criticisms and commentaries come into existence.

As a result, I despair of reaching an agreement as to the meaning of Nirvana. If Siddhartha had clearly and distinctly written his thoughts and if those writings had been preserved intact, then there could be no arguments about meaning. The Dhammapada is as close as we can come to a record of his words. But, even that does not have precise clarity in its definitions. Therefore, I withdraw my protest and I submit to the reality that Nirvana can mean extinction of desire, extinction of existence, immortality, deathlessness, joyous pleasure, liberation, emancipation, enlightenment, wisdom, purity, the uncreated, the opposite of Samsara, the untrodden realm, perfect contemplation, infinite being, selflessness, insight, truth, deliverance, salvation, oneness with reality, illumination, love for all creatures, a Seattle grunge band, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Sal si puedes and let the Devil take the hindmost. Lestrade 15:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] No need for BOTH Sanskrit and Pali transcriptions, especially for words like "sutra" and "nirvana"

Some comments.

  • In this article, sometimes half a line is spent on Sanskrit AND Pali transcriptions for existing English terms such as Four Noble Truths and sutras. This to me is a serious problem of clutter.
  • Many of theravada's Pali transcriptions are unnecessary. For example, Pali's transcription of sutta for "sutra" (Sanskrit: sūtra); and nibbāna for "nirvana" (Sanskrit: Nirvāṇa). If people feel that the Pali transcriptions are necessary to this article, then I demand Chinese transcriptions as well. Obviously people had a problem with having Chinese transcriptions for Sanskrit words, then why do they not have a problem with using Pali transcriptions for a Sanskrit word like Nirvana? It doesn't really matter that Classical Sanskrit is younger than Pali, the word English word Nirvana came from Sanskrit.
  • There is a lot of linkage redundancies in this article as well. Not every occurrence of the word "Sanskrit" needs to be linked. Links should be used for the first occurrence only.
  • Over-zealous Indic transcriptions and word linkage makes this article appear very messy and dense. Yes, it's a style issue. But style issues are important too.

--Naus 19:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

"If people feel that the Pali transcriptions are necessary to this article, then I demand Chinese transcriptions as well." What are you, six years old? If the Pali transcriptions are resulting in clutter, how does adding Chinese transcriptions improve the situation?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Personal attacks, eh? Did I say adding Chinese transcriptions would improve clutter? No. The argument is that Pali is unnecessary already, and if you feel that Pali transcriptions should be used for this article, then you have no argument against Chinese transcriptions. Do you deny that clutter is not a problem for this article? Instead of making personal attacks and beating around the bush, perhaps you could directly address some of the issues I presented above. That would be an indication of maturity. --Naus 03:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading between the lines of any personal attacks that may have occurred, you will notice a relevant point, to wit that the inclusion of Pāli names for words has no relevance to the inclusion of Chinese names, except insofar as having both increases clutter, so if we are going to include one, that militates against including the other. I shall address some other issues below.
I demand that we have Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, Tibetan, Japanese, Mongolian, Manchu, Korean, Thai, Khmer, Lao, Burmese, Vietnamese, Tangut, Sogdian, Khotanese, Tokharian A & B transcriptions for every technical term possible. Only then will everybody be satisfied. I can supply many of these, so let's get started soon.--Stephen Hodge 03:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that there is a good reason to have both Pali and Sanskrit transcriptions for the most common terms and limiting it to that. If you are reading an article written in English about Buddhism, you are likely going to be seeing the technical terms put in either Sanskrit or Pali unless it is a very technical piece of writing. The similarity of the two languages is often confusing for newcomers- is 'dhamma' really a different word from 'dharma', is it different language, a different transliteration, etc.? I wouldn't favor expanding the number of translations- we have some clutter issues already with this article, and terms in specific languages are more likely to be of interest primarily to people who are particularly interested in a specific tradition- thus better kept with the 'Buddhism in XX' articles, or maybe even a language-specific vocab list- 'Buddhist Terms in XX' or something. --Clay Collier 08:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the sensible thing to do is to say in the article itself what practice we are following and why. Specifically, if we are talking about general Buddhist technical terms that we feel need to be given in a foreign language, then that ought to be Sanskrit, purely and simply because that's the general practice of western scholars, even though actual Buddhists don't do that, except in nepal. Peter jackson 15:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Naus that style issues are important. The article has various stylistic defects, amongst its various other shortcomings. Clutter is one problem, and redundant overlinking and redundant cross-translation of terms is another. I would suggest that we can't make a single one-size-fits all rule for which languages to include in the article, but we can establish overall principles for which to include, and then apply them on a case-by-case basis.
I agree with Clay that Sanskrit and Pāli terms of jargon are the ones our readers are most likely to be familiar with. Theravada writers tend to avoid using Sanskrit terms, because they think that the Buddha specifically prohibited teaching dhamma in Sanskrit. Other writers are quite likely to use Sanskrit (if not an English translation) in English, regardless of their regional backgrounds. If we were to include a third language, we might be better off with Tibetan, which might occur in English writings more commonly than any of one reading of the equivalent Chinese characters. On the other hand, Tibetan is problematic because non-specialists are likely to recognise some phonetic spelling instead of the Wylie romanisation, but there is no consensus system for Tibetan phonetic spelling.
I'm inclined to say that we should include Pāli equivalents for some of the more important terms used here, particularly those that are not conventionally translated into English. For instance, it barely seems necessary to give the Sanskrit for "Four Noble Truths" and "Eightfold Path", let alone the Pāli, because this concept is almost always expressed in English; specialists will already know what "Four Noble Truths" is in Sanskrit and non-specialists won't care. On the other hand, we do need to mention that sutra is sutta in Pāli, because we are going to use the term sutta every time we mention the name of a sutra from the Pāli Canon—on the other hand, we're never going to refer to a Mahayana sutra as a jīng or a gīng or a kyō.
Another thing we should keep in mind is that many of the terms we are using are the subjects of their own articles, so readers can easily find more information about them just by clicking the blue link. When this is the case, it reduces the importance of providing alternate versions here.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that's an excellent point- I'd be in favor of cutting down the number of foreign transliterations to a minimum in the main Buddhism article, and including them instead on the individual pages. The few terms that are typically referenced in Sanskrit and Pali (karma, dharma, sangha, bodhi, bodhisattva, arhat) can be put in Sanskrit with the Pali version (where it differs and is relevant) as a parenthetical. --Clay Collier 08:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The use of nagari in this article is very haphazard. In a number of cases it is used for the Pali but not the Sanskrit, which is ridiculous: scholars always use latin script for Pali, but often nagari for Sanskrit; Indians use nagari or other local script for Sanskrit (and Pali); Theravadins use local script for Pali (and Sanskrit). I've deleted these cases, and also those where the nagari is actually wrong. Peter jackson 18:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. Personally, I would remove all devanagari script glosses. Anybody who can read devanagari probably doesn't need them anyway.--Stephen Hodge 18:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can anyone attain nirvana?

I don't think the statement in the article is correct for Buddhism as a whole. The Yamaka mentions those who will not attain the path, though I suppose that might be interpreted as implying that they could but don't. Yogacara sources speak of icchantikas, who are incapable of enlightenment. Peter jackson 18:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Incapable of Nirvana (extinction of grasping) or incapable of Bodhi (enlightenment)?Lestrade 19:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Incapable of both -- although the standard Yogacara term is for such people is agotraka rather than icchantika which used in tathagata-garbha literature.--Stephen Hodge 01:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Can an agotraka be capable of one and not the other? For example, can a person be enlightened (possess knowledge and wisdom) but not be able to extinguish craving? And vice versa, can a person be ascetic (extinguish attachments), but not have enlightenment and wisdom?Lestrade 01:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Thanks to Stephen for correcting my memory. If we remember that there are 3 grades of bodhi, its attainment is always combined with nirvana (& vice versa), at least according to Theravada. On the actual text here, the wording is in fact a statement about what the Buddha said, and should therefore be deleted or reworded, like all such, since there are no "facts" of this sort in the wiki sense; that is, there are sceptical scholars who doubt all such statements (see Gombrich, Theravada Buddhism, 2nd edn, Routledge, London, 2006, pp20f), so they cannot represent a scholarly consensus. Peter jackson 11:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bodhi

The section on this seems rather unclear on whether it is talking about all 3 senses or just the highest. Taken literally it seems to be all 3. In that case I'm not sure whether the statement about enlightened people being free from the round of rebirth is correct. The orthodox Mahayana view is that arahants remain in samsara; but perhaps they do that voluntarily, so could be said to be free. Perhaps someone with a knowledge of Mahayana can clarify this. Peter jackson 12:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Establishment of Theravāda Buddhism

Unless somebody is working on it right now, something has gone wrong with this section of the article.--Stephen Hodge 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem appears to be curly brackets with unicode. Seems fixed now.--Klimov 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling: English versus American-English

"Corrections" to this article from English to American-English are unecessary and should be discussed beforehand. I think we need to concentrate on real spelling mistakes.--Read-write-services 22:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. It is better to leave the English in the way it was if the topic does not pertain to Britain of the U.S. GizzaChat © 23:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Hallo everyone. I totally agree with the above. I think it is disrespectful (and mildly offensive) unnecessarily to change contributors' English from British English to American English, or vice versa - the main thing is surely to correct bad grammar and truly inaccurate spellings (whether they appear in American or English!!), as you so rightly say. Best wishes to you. From Tony. TonyMPNS 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Now to convince everyone else! here is the policy..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English

--Read-write-services 23:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You are all, of course, right that it is asinine for editors to label the change from "recognise" to "recognize" as a correction of spelling. One notes that the editor in question here is a complete newbie who probably doesn't know much about how we do things here.
The rule on Wikipedia for most articles, including this one, is that spelling should be consistent throughout the page; i.e., it should either use all British spelling or all American spelling. If an editor introduces words which are written in the other spelling convention, then other editors should correct the style to make it consistent with the rest of the article. In practice, this means that the spelling used in the earliest fleshed-out form of the article is the official standard for that article permanently.
So, which spelling should this article? At present, it seems to be split. Looking back at earlier versions, it appears to me that, on January 1, 2004, this article used mostly British spellings. A year earlier, on January 1, 2003, it was quite short and doesn't provide much of a sample to look at. I would be fine with switching the whole article to British spelling. We can do that, but we should discuss it first, and it should apply to the whole article.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the -ize / -ise forms, my Oxford Dictionary lists words like "recognize" under that spelling and just notes the -ise alternative. In other words, -ize is not flagged as US usage. Thus, some -ize forms are typical of US English, but not all. Personally, I always use -ize forms because I happen to like the letter zed. But I agree with Tony above: correct well-written English should be the desideratum, although I naturally prefer British English spellings when a choice arises.--Stephen Hodge 00:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doctrine

The introduction to this section is true, indeed understated, but very misleading. In fact every school of Buddhism would accept most of these doctrines, but I don't think any form of Mahayana treats them as central, and some forms treat them as very peripheral indeed. If we want a genuinely shared (by most of Buddhism) core of teaching, I think it would be something like this: karma and rebirth in the five or six realms; faith and devotion; the five precepts; the monastic order; some form(s) of liberation and/or enlightenment reached usually by some form(s) of meditation. Peter jackson 12:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification and organization

The article seems very confused about classification, using different schemes in different places. It seems from the sources I've consulted that most scholars classify present-day Buddhiosm into three main traditions: Southern, Eastern and Northern (terminology varies). If this is so then presumably, by the rules of the game, we should do likewise. As regards the overall organization of the article, I would suggest that most readers looking up Buddhism will be mainly interested in what Buddhism is now, rather than its history. Therefore i think the large Indian section that currently dominates the article should be drastically curtailed, while the very brief sections on the living traditions should be greatly expanded. Peter jackson 12:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, most of the article does seem to read either as if buddhism is still active in India, or it is extinct. Zazaban 06:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I've never heard the terminology "Southern, Eastern and Northern" before. I assume you are referring to the "Sri Lanka, etc.", "China, etc.", and "Tibet, etc." groups? Also, I don't think any sections in this arcticle should be greatly expanded. Perhaps some should be greatly reduced (and the text thereof moved to other articles, of course).—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 06:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History section.

We need to add something about the life of Shakyamuni Buddha. It currently begins at his death. Zazaban 06:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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