Talk:Budd Dwyer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

This article is part of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri.

In 1995, rock band Filter had a hit with the song "Hey Man, Nice Shot", which, although not explicitly mentioning Dwyer, was clearly about his suicide.

Well, not all that clear, since I seem to recall that at the time many (younger) hearers believed it was about Kurt Cobain. --Calieber 14:58, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I agree (I was in high school at about that time) but it is not pure speculation, either. I have a copy of a May 1996 newspaper which contains an official statement by Filter stating that the song was "inspired" by Budd Dwyer. Thunderbunny 23:16, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How many PA stations? 1+5+1 = 7 != 6

Seven factorial does not equal six. But, seriously, I noticed this discrepancy myself and I'm not sure how to fix it.

Acegikmo1 06:08, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Looks like the discrepancy has been fixed by simply stating, "A number of television stations throughout Pennsylvania..." However, what might have accounted for the discrepancy in the first place is that at least one station in Youngstown, Ohio covered the news conference, thus would not count as a "Pennsylvania station". (I believe it was WKBN, but am not sure enough of this to edit the article.) The Youngstown station opted to edit the footage for broadcast. However, Cleveland station WEWS aired the footage from fellow ABC affiliate WPVI without editing, but with a warning. Meadville is in the Youngstown market, and Cleveland is close enough for the story to be of local interest there as well. -- SwissCelt 23:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Who is William Smith? He is referred to in the article but not further identified.

Bill Smith was the person who arrainged the crime and then blamed Budd. Smith and his wife were the only ones who provided first hand evidence aganst Dwyer. Smith was Republican Chairman and the unindicted co-conspirators were his key allies. I suspect that Smith was scamming the $300,000 for a run for the congressional seat that George Gekas ended up taking. If you want to know the truth you can ask Barry O'Connell or wait for the movie that was shot last year but has not been released yet. Lanny Budd 03:46, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 budd dwyer 2 Christine Chubbuck 3 A sea of troubles 4 Locale of suicide? 5 Speech Transcript 6 Time of shot vs. time of death. 7 Live? 8 How disgusting is it?

[edit] budd dwyer

i find this guy a real star he seems to me to have been fitted up by people around him and was unable to prove he wasnt guilty so maybe he committed fraud but he still had a sense of humour calling a press conference to shoot yourself an "update on the situation" is hilarious maybe i've got a sick sense of humour but who doesnt agree with me that this guy was one courageous man r.i.p BUDD

I have a sight probem with the sentence Thinking that someone in the crowd might attempt to thwart him, Dwyer put the gun barrel into his mouth and pulled the trigger, in front of five television news cameras. Since Mr. Dwyer committed suicide and there's no way to ask him what he was thinking before pulling the trigger the phrase Thinking that someone in the crowd might attempt to thwart him, should be struck as subjective. Wjbean 23:54, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)

pmj. It seems that a powerful samurai ethic pervaded Dwyer's actions. In the West, we often think of suicide as an act of cowardice, running away from responsibility. But this man, wrongfully dishonoured and faced with an unbeatable enemy, decisively proved that he had guts -- if not as literally as his oriental counterparts. Certainly his act was more powerful (and dare I suggest, graceful?) than jail and trials and retrials and eventual death in obscurity. Budd Dwyer was, in my opinion, a brave and noble man; and I take some solace in the knowledge that the unusual video footage of his last seconds will keep him in the public consciousness for many years to come. pmj 14:06, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Why in the hell is it called the "ultimate act of cowardice"? I'm 99.9% sure Wikipedia doesn't call OTHER suicides this. Yeah, he was found guilty, but saying it's an act of cowardice is an opinion. Just say he shot himself in the head.24.250.68.193 02:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christine Chubbuck

If it could be done in a sensitive way, a see also to Christine Chubbuck might be added.

[edit] A sea of troubles

"In late 1986, Dwyer was charged as having agreed to accept a related kickback of $300,000. Dwyer never actually received any money and some suspect that this was an elaborate scam by Torquato's attorney, William Smith, to skim a supposed bribe." - is there a source of this quite bold assertion? An authoritative source that absolves Dwyer and damns the people who he held to blame? And does his conviction still stand? Reading the article I tend to favour Dwyer, but this is an encyclopaedia entry, not a fan page. -Ashley Pomeroy 11:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The link to a video of the shooting doesn't work.

The scandal goes back 3 years. I will have to read 50-100 articles to get a solid grasp of the investigation and trial--so I'm not going to bother. It will take too much effort to get this to encyclopedic standard. Lotsofissues 19:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so that's who the mysterious "Smith" is, who was to testify against Dwyer. When this was removed from the article, so too was the context indicating who Smith was. So later in the article, we have "A plea bargain made for Torquato and Smith required them to testify against Dwyer," without really identifying the second co-defendant. -- SwissCelt 00:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Bill Smith was the person who arrainged the crime and then blamed Budd. Smith and his wife were the only ones who provided first hand evidence aganst Dwyer. Smith was Republican Chairman and the unindicted co-conspirators were his key allies. I suspect that Smith was scamming the $300,000 for a run for the congressional seat that George Gekas ended up taking. If you want to know the truth you can ask Barry O'Connell or wait for the movie that was shot last year but has not been released yet. Lanny Budd 03:46, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Locale of suicide?

I have seen differing accounts of exactly where the fatal press conference took place -- some even disputing whether it took place in Harrisburg. Was it in the state capitol building? Some other office building? Or was it in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh?

Unfortunately the published obits I have looked at are maddeningly unclear on this point.

Does someone have definitive information? Kestenbaum 00:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

IMDb.com says Harrisburg. My memory says Harrisburg; I first learned of the suicide from KDKA's Harrisburg bureau reporter. But neither of these are definitive. Fortunately, I was able to find the archived article from the New York Times:

R. Budd Dwyer, the Pennsylvania State Treasurer, whose conviction for bribery last month jolted the state's Republican Party, shot and killed himself today at a news conference in his office in Harrisburg, the state capital.[1]

So, there's your definitive information. -- SwissCelt 03:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that settles the city and the conceptual location -- thank you. But where was the Pennsylvania state treasurer's office located in 1987? In the state capitol building? A specific State Treasury Building? Some other state office building? Kestenbaum 11:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I found this photo credit, from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: "Paul Vathis made this photo of state Treasurer R. Budd Dwyer as he held a pistol in his hand before committing suicide during a news conference in his State Capitol office in Harrisburg, Pa. on Jan. 22, 1987. (Paul Vathis, Associated Press)"[2] Best I can come up with is that Dwyer killed himself somewhere in the Pennsylvania State Capitol Complex. The Finance Building would be a good guess, as this was built in 1939 and thus was probably the location of Dwyer's office in 1987. -- SwissCelt 17:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speech Transcript

based on the video of the incident I've seen, Dwyer's speech ends with "so that my family and their future families are not tainted by this injustice that has been perpetrated on me." One explanation would be that the video I saw was edited, but it could be that the speech text in the article is taken from his prepared notes, and he never got around to reading the last paragraph. Can anyone clear this up? --Osbojos 01:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time of shot vs. time of death.

When exactly was the press conference? The article notes that the conference was held on January 22, but does not mention a specific time during the day. The article also says Dwyer died at 11:31 a.m. at Harrisburg Hospital, but does not note a date. I'm wondering if doctors kept Dwyer alive through the night, or if the conference was simply held very early in the day with Dwyer dying hours or minutes after being shot.

--I would almost assume that he died minutes after. He was probably transported to the hospital and called very shortly after. With the caliber of weapon and the blood loss, I can't imaging that he would have survived. If he was alive on arrival of EMS, he probably died on the way in.

--Besides artificial life support, there's really no way to keep someone alive after they've painted half their brains on the ceiling. When someone is shot in the brain, it is not the bullet that instantly kills them, its the shock wave it sends out. But rest assured, he was dead when he closed his eyes after hitting the floor.

[edit] Live?

The way this article is written with regards to the live coverage makes it sounds like there was absolutely no chance for the stations to cut him off. However it sounds like there was probably a not insignificant amount of time, perhaps at least 30 seconds between the time when he took the gun and the time he shot himself. While obviously the people broadcasting the press conference might not have been expecting the need to suddenly cut the feed and so perhaps were not ready/paying attention, I would assume they could have easily cut off the feed if they had wanted to and were on the gun so to speak. Obviously footage of him with the gun would still have been broadcast but it sounds like the actual suicide could have been cut off. Nil Einne 12:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a serious problem with the way the article continues to imply that the cameras were sending a live feed back to the tv stations which was being broadcast live to the public. I can find no documentation of this. The cameras were on obviously, but this was not being shown live, in real time, to the public. I'd like someone to provide evidence that it was. Samclem 23:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Kestenbaum, for the edit but I have more trouble with the immediate next part under "Aftermath." It says "A number of television stations throughout Pennsylvania carried the press conference live via feed from one of the five news cameras present, airing Dwyer's suicide before a mid-day audience without the chance of editing. Due to a major snowstorm throughout Pennsylvania that day, many home-bound school-aged children witnessed the suicide live on television." I still want to see the proof that one of those cameras was sending a live feed back to a tv station WHICH WAS SHOWING THE PRESS CONFERENCE IN REAL TIME, thus allowing all those snow-bound kids to see it. Can anyone name a tv station which was showing the live feed as it happened? Any documented evidence? Samclem 00:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't give you such evidence; in fact, to the best of my recollection, it wasn't live. I seem to remember that footage from the shooting was aired on newscasts at noon, 5, and 6 pm... not live. My recollection coincides with WPXI's By Williams' statement that he chose to air the shooting at noon. Were it live, the choice would be to cut away (if there were a choice, that is). -- SwissCelt 02:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

So, am I allowed to go in and change the language in that section? Carefully, of course. I mean, unless someone has proof, then the wiki article gives out incorrect information. Samclem 19:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please do go ahead and change that section. Kestenbaum 20:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How disgusting is it?

I just wanted to know how disgusting the scene is. I mean does he shoot his head clean off or what?

It's pretty horrific. No, his head does not come off. Rather, he falls to the ground, and blood spills out of his nose covering his mouth, neck, and clothes. The blood flow out of his nostrils is like two kitchen faucets letting out water, and it continues like that for at least 10 seconds. 21:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have seen the JFK assisignation. Is it worst than that?--Hamedog_Talk|^@ 10:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Try and control your blood lust! --WikiCats 11:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, though I think it's fair that people have access to a text description so they can decide whether or not to watch this disturbing piece of footage. Just to add to the above description, events move too fast on the film for one to see too much graphic detail of the actual gunshot (the photos are more graphic in this regard though as noted in the article they are all black and white). The disturbing part of the video is that Dwyer is clearly still alive as he crumples to the floor, and as the camera zooms in for a closeup of his face, you can see the moment of his death where the "lights go out" for all intents and purposes. That IMO is more disturbing than the rest of it. 23skidoo 18:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

For those who want to see it: [3] (animated .gif) or [4] (full video.)