Talk:Brighton & Hove

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Contents 1 &, not and 2 categories? 3 Ampersand considered harmful 4 Stub? 5 Division into areas 6 Jedi census statistics

[edit] &, not and

I suddenly realised that this article has spelt the name of the city wrongly throughout. the City was named Brighton & Hove when it gained city status, so should be refered to as such. however when the old administrative areas of Brighton and Hove are refered to it is ok to omit the ampersand. I have also added a line to mention that this naming is unique in as much as it contains an ampersand. sharing the distinction with westward ho! that also has a non alphabetic character in its name.

I will also make a duplicate of the page renamed Brighton & Hove so that links from other pages can be corrected. I hope that this is the correct way of going about it. DavidP 02:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• David, I've noticed you've changed the "In other languages" links to correctly use the "&" instead of "and". Unfortunately, the articles in other languages are still incorrect. Any idea how we can go about correcting the foreign-language articles as well? My Norwegian is non-existent! --A bit iffy 13:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

iffy - I dont have the faintest - I hoped to give some time to it yesterday but ended up chasing my own tail around the help pages trying to find a coherent explanation of how the categories work, or rather how to edit them. - I ended up sitting perplexed at 4:30 am wishing I'd never started. maybe soon I will put aside a couple of days to give it another try. just now though Ill check to see if youve already changed them back, if not ill do it. thanks for your note DavidP 01:37, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] categories?

attempted at length to change or add the category heading to also read Brighton & Hove rather than Brighton and Hove. it got the better of me - can anyone help to either correct the spelling of the category or add a new one... thanks DavidP 12:58, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ampersand considered harmful

No, the city does not have an Ampersand in its name, to my knowledge. If you read the actual law establishing the borough, you'll note it uses "Brighton and Hove" not "Brighton & Hove". Morwen - Talk 23:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Morwen. like you i too have spent a while trying to clear this little conundrum up, since you posted, I might add. The reason that I was so sure that the ampersand was policy, was that I had a conversation with an ex mayor of the city and they insisted that the proper useage was with an ampersand.

the 'actual law' that you give a link to, are only the notes to the statutory instrument that notifies transitional provision of authority from the two separate towns - in effect it disbands their separate local authorities and forms a transitional one. that lasted 5 years.

the actual royal charter of 2000 that confers city status is worded thus:

"ELIZABETH the SECOND BY THE GRACE OF GOD OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND & OF OUR REALMS & TERRITORIES QUEEN HEAD OF THE COMMON WEALTH DEFENDER OF THE FAITH.

To all to whom these Presents shall come Greeting. Whereas We for divers good causes and considerations Us thereunto moving are graciously pleased to confer on the Towns of Brighton and Hove the status of a city Now Therefore Know Ye that We of Our especial grace and favour and mere motion do by these Presents ordain declare and direct that the TOWNS OF BRIGHTON AND HOVE shall henceforth have the status of a CITY and shall have all such rank liberties privileges and immunities as are incident to a City. In witness whereof We have caused Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster the thirty first day of January in the fourty ninth year of our reign.

By Warrant under The Queens Sign Manual Phillips."

Quite a mouthfull, and not exactly common usage, but it does not refer to the name of the new city at all, simply that the towns currently known of as Brighton and Hove shall have the status of city.

the link to the charter is here

however if you take a look at the cities website I'm sure you will agree that there is a concerted effort to use the ampersand.

Finaly there is the matter of correct usage - an ampersand is the correct form for a proper noun in the UK. As Brighton universities Publication and corporate identity guidelines point out:

Ampersand (the & symbol)

Don’t use except where correct form of proper noun

• Brighton & Hove

• Marks & Spencer.

so although the ampersand may not be the most web friendly of characters (Brighton & Hove council simply replace it with a hyphen for their URL rather than replace it with 'and') most search engines ignore both the & and the word 'and'. It is correct. I dont quite see why you consider it 'harmful'?

DavidP 01:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Ampsersands in URLs are bad. But that's not really a problem. I think we ought to remove the claim that it "is the only city that has an ampersand in its name", since the ampersand is only used informally. Morwen - Talk 14:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And of course, I meant to link to [1]. Whilst you may deride this as a 'transitional provision of authority from the two separate towns', it still forms the current legal basis for the council, and has not been entirely superseded - certainly not by the royal charter, which is an entirely ceremonial document. Morwen - Talk 14:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And I'm fine with keeping the article here, by the way. As long as someone updates the template Template:South_East_England or whatever its called. Morwen - Talk 15:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm diving in a bit late in the day, but nevertheless... I also consider ampersands to be dangerous. I don't dislike them, and I think it's a pity that they're dangerous, but they have long been used a kind of "control character" in various computer systems, and I prefer web documents to err on the side of caution. If it were absolutely certain that the ampersand is the correct usage, that would modify my opinion, but that case hasn't been proved yet.

Also, I can't resist pointing out a flaw in the logic where the Brighton University document is referenced. I don't do this to be pedantic, but to prevent a flawed argument from being accepted by default, and adding weight to one side of the argument. Basically the document in no way suggests that the ampersand is proper usage for a proper noun; it merely states that they should not be used in any other way, which is a much "smaller" scope of statement. In any case, a University style guide is no guide to correct usage, it's merely a marketing guideline for a single organisation.

I'm sorry to stir this up, but my reading of this page suggests that we now have two people speaking in favour of the ampersand (David P and A bit iffy) and two against (Morwen and me). Would anybody else care to cast a vote? – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 00:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stub?

I wonder why this article is still stubbed? There seems a fair amount here now, and some of what might be added could more properly be put in the separate articles on the towns themselves, surely? I've de-stubbed, although I expect to be taken to task with all the things that could be put in!!! But do we not have enough stubs as it is? Peter Shearan 10:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Division into areas

Does this division into four areas makes sense? I am in particular concerned by the fact that Rottingdean is an area in itself, but that Saltdean is part of the Brighton area. Looking at a map, it might make sense to divide all the deans off, but hiving just Rottingdean off (persumably because it has a parish council) seems odd. Morwen - Talk 15:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jedi census statistics

Brighton & Hove ranks top in the Jedi census statistics, according to the 2001 census. Of course, this is more of a fun fact, but maybe someone cares to incorporate it into the article. Subversive element 16:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree; one line about it coming top in any area of census data may well be worth a mention.mr_happyhour 16 Nov 2006

Done. I wonder why nobody has done it before, or whether it has always been commented out. Wikipeditor 09:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been done before: diff Wikipeditor 09:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)