Talk:Brigham Young

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Contents

[edit] Fun with polygamy

Before:

The modern church no longer tolerates polygamy.

After:

The modern church no longer practices polygamy.

"No longer tolerates" implies that the Church never approved of polygamy but didn't stop its members from practicing it. This is not true. I think "no longer practices" gives a better impression of the fact that polygamy was at one time practiced and, generally, endorsed by the Church. —Zulugrid 12:56, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The Lion and the Bee

I see the new mention of The Lion House in the article. What about the (nextdoor) Beehive House? Wasn't that another of his residences? — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:09, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

That's correct. I'll try to write an article for that. (Buildings and sites of Salt Lake City, Utah are a pet project of mine right now.) CHL 17:22, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Autocracy discussion

In the paragraph discussing whether or not Young is an autocrat, we have: "He encouraged independence and self-sufficiency." I'm probably missing some context here (in which case, so's the article), but this doesn't seem to leave much doubt.


[edit] Numbers Game

The numbers introduced by User:66.182.95.52 "18,000 out of 20,000" are not accurate. No such numbers exist. The previous text was more accurate and I think we should revert to it. --John Hamer 05:54, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agree - I have never seen numbers like that before - I do think the wording before that most members left the church is also not referenced or accurate. Trödel|talk 14:37, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New WikiProject

This article is part of WikiProject Utah, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Utah.

[edit] Photo

I changed the image from the photo of a statue of young (Image:Young.jpg) to a photo of Young himself. There are a number of good PD photos of young; I will try to add another later. Mwanner 15:36, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Death to the president?

"and I prophesy in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the priesthood that's upon me, that any President of the United States who lifts his finger against this people, shall die an untimely death, and go to hell"

Did Brigham Young really say this? (unsigned by an anon)

Not that I could find in any source document - however it was reported to congress and to President Filmore that Young said this - in a "Report of the three officers to President Fillmore, Ex. Doc. No. 25, 1st Session, 32d Congress" on the 24th of July 1851 [1] [2], [3]. The original source is missing from any statement by Young (which is suprising due to the meticulous record-keeping of the saints) It may appear in an 1851 entry Journal History of the Church (which is unpublished), but I've not seen it in my research. I doubt he said it, although it would not be inconsistent with his rhetoric.
The closest I've seen is the following remark from HC Kimball, nearly 6 years later :
To gratify some who cry, "Oh, don't say anything, brother Heber,--don't say anything, brother Brigham, to bring down the United States upon us," we have at times omitted printing some of the remarks that might offend the weak-stomached world, and we have made buttermilk and catnip tea to accommodate the tastes of our enemies; but the poor devils are not pleased after all. Would they come any quicker if we told them that they were poor, miserable, priest-ridden curses, who want a President in the chair that dare not speak for fear those hell-hounds be on him?
God knew that Zachary Taylor would strike against us, and He sent him to hell. President Fillmore was the next man who came on the platform, and he did us good. God bless him! Then came President Pierce, and he did not strive to injure us. We hoped that the next after him would do us justice; but he has issued orders to send troops to kill brother Brigham and me, and to take the young women to the States.
The woman will be damned that will go: she shall dry up in the fountain of life, and be as though she never was. But there ain't any a-going--unless they are whores. If the soldiers come here, those creatures will have the privilege of showing themselves and of becoming debauched.
I tell you there is not a purer set of women on God's earth than there is here; and they shall live and bear the souls of men, and bear tabernacles for those righteous spirits that are kept back for the last time, for the winding-up scenery.
Will the President that sits in the chair of state be tipped from his seat? Yes, he will die an untimely death, and God Almighty will curse him; and He will also curse his successor, if he takes the same stand; and he will curse all those that are his coadjutors, and all who sustain him. What for? For coming here to destroy the kingdom of God, and the Prophets, and Apostles, and inspired men and women; and God Almighty will curse them, and I curse them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to my calling; and if there is any virtue in my calling, they shall be cursed, every man that lifts his heel against us from this day forth. - Journal of Discourses, Vol.5, p.134, Heber C. Kimball, August 2, 1857
That said, it is interesting to note the Presidents deaths/legacies of the time period -
  • Zachary Taylor died in office (Untimely - apparent fullfilment of alleged prophecy)
  • Millard Fillmore who was kind to the Mormons died when he was 74 years old of a stroke (Could be untimely, but was kind, so should have lived longer? Could be fullfilment of alleged prophecy)
  • Franklin Pierce drank himself to death at the age of 65 after not being re-elected, and is known as one of the worst presidents in history (disputed as untimely - died from drinking - could be untimely, but was 65, which is older - could be fullfilment of alleged prophecy)
  • James Buchanan was also not re-elected. Also known as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. Lived to be 77. One of the most controversial presidents up to his time. (Not untimely, apparent not fullfilment of alleged prophecy)
  • Abraham Lincoln was assasinated by Booth - he was allegedly going to focus on Polygamy the other "twin relic of barbarism" as part of the reconstruction, however had no formal policy toward mormons. (untimely, however disputed as fullfilment of alleged prophecy, as policy is unclear)
  • Andrew Johnson was "associated" with Lincoln, and lived to a ripe old age of 67. He had no formal policy toward the Mormons that I can recall, however he was impeached. (cannot be counted in the alleged prophecy).
For the historical ranking of Presidents, see Historical_rankings_of_U.S._Presidents
So, if it was a prophecy, it could be as high as 4/5, more likely 2/5 or untimely means something different than what it means to us. I'd say HC Kimball's statement or curse is more accurate, as it deals with being "tipped from his seat," which did happen with every president who has had a policy against the Mormons, and have not be re-elected. Of course no president between Jackson and Cleaveland (1838-1893) was president for two full terms, and it wasn't until Teddy Roosevelt (from Jackson in 1838 until 1901) - that the president was elected for two consecutive terms. You've raised an interesting question. I wish we had more detail on this statement, but the bottom line and answer to your original question is we don't know if Brigham Young made the statement or not. Ther is no record of it that has been published aside from a hearsay report to the US that led to the Utah War. The same document has other strange things that have later been proven false - and I do find it a bit funny that Young said "Hell" with Mormon theology of the spirit world and the kingdoms of glories. Anyway , long answer to say, "who knows." Thanks for the fun excercise and good question. -Visorstuff 20:41, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Glaring Inaccuracies

I am appalled to see that Young's involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre is just glazed over, as if the LDS had written this themselves. (Is Wikipedia a Mormon front?)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/11.html "If the United States send their army here, and war commences, the travel must stop," Young told the Saints in August 1857. "To accomplish this, I need only say a word, for the Indians will use them up unless I continually strive to contain them."

Young created the atmosphere that made the massacre possble, if not planning the entire thing. As far as his letter to "leave the settlers alone," arriving too late... well, for good reason. It wasn't composed until after the murders took place!

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/16.html "Lee immediately reported the slaughter to Brigham Young, who quickly issued a letter dated before the slayings ordering the southern communities to take no action against any immigrant trains."

Thanks for your comments. This has been a source of Mormon, non-Mormon and Anti-Mormon debate for many years. All evidence surrounding the event is inconclusive and anyone stating otherwise is not telling the truth or is not truly familiar with the primary documents. We hope an upcoming book and the release of documements that are supposed to be made available at that time will shed further light on the events.
Your first quote "for the Indians will use them up unless I continually strive to contain them" was said by young, as showing that the Indians hated and wanted to kill many of the whites who used the various trails to california (indians seemed to like the mormons whose policy was to feed them, and disliked the rude california gold seekers, and oregon land claimants), but they were spared because of an agreement between Young and Chief "Walker" (Wakara) - so I'm not sure why you are pointing to this as evidence against Young - it actually is a strong support against your point.
Second, the letter was composed the second day of the massacre, if I remmeber correctly. There is no way for word to have travelled 600 miles within that time for "Lee immediately reported the slaughter to Brigham Young" and then Young to have "quickly" issued a letter (Lee didn't see Young for months after the event). Even the descendants of the fancer party and most western historians doubt Young's knowledge of or involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre until about five days after the event.
Having said that, there was a lot of rhetoric of the time by Young and other church leaders that lead to such a paranoid group of "Mormons" where this took place. This have very unfortunate ramifications and likely contributed to the events. But to tie the two so closely together as you are trying to do is drawing conclusions where there is no evidence or records or support for it. Especially with the outspoken nature of many within the Fancher party claiming to have aided in Joseph Smith's death. Someday we may very well find out that Young was involved (though it is unlikely from my own research), but for now, we don't. There is not evidence to support and is actually evidence to the contrary. There's more evidence to support various John F. Kennedy assassination threories than your point.
For some good Non-LDS views of the MMM, visit [4] or [5] or check out the upcoming Walker-Turley-Leonard book that opens many new documents to the events. I'd say there is only a couple of dozen folks who've really been able to spend time researching and understanding the MMM. Juanita Brooks definitely went against the grain of Mormon leadership in her works on the subject, and they seem to be the most accurate and throrugh up until this time - and they definitely didn't tie anything but Young's and other church leaders' rhetoric to haveing been a contributing factor. Happy editing -Visorstuff 17:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Famous Quotes" Section

In general, this section is lacking. Sources to these quotes need to be documented; I'll take a look into what's offered online through the official LDS website, but it may not have all of them available. Concerning the controversial quote regarding Young's views on African Americans, a comment has been made in the History that it is not notable for the time period. I disagree, especially due to the significant issue of race in the Church. Keep in mind that just because the quote may not be highly regarded or popular within the Church (and with good reason, of course), it doesn't make it any less notable or important. Deadsalmon 07:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Okay, after some searching on the LDS site, it's not pulling up much. The search engine doesn't seem to work well for advanced text searching, and in any case, some of the more important books necessary, such as the Journal of Discourses, aren't available. I'd imagine that the book used for the Sunday School course on Brigham Young a few years back (from the rotating series on presidents of the Church) would be an excellent resource; however, I'm not able to get to one at the time being. Without proper documentation, I've removed the entire section for now. I'll try to find the sources, but if someone wants to take a shot at documenting the quotes in the meantime, just look for the edit in the History page corresponding in time with the timestamp listed here. Deadsalmon 07:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My last revert - can this be verified?

I reverted out the claim that Young had 51 wives and 70 children because the contributor (165.138.79.133's contribs) made this contribution a few minutes earlier. Normally I would just ask for some verification instead of reverting. Claimed wife is "Abigal Howe 1816 (13 children, in will)" Trödel•talk 17:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Meadows

The cause of the Mountain Meadows massacre was the murderous activity of the Wagon-Train migrants, who killed Native Americans ("Indians") at every opportunity, poisoned wells, and committed other atrocities. The Natives decide to launch a counterstrike against the migrants who were murdering them, and pressured the Latter-day Saints in the area to join in the attack.Das Baz 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics, Polygamy and US History

[edit] There's More to this Story

There's much more to this story.

  • Why did the Mormons get run out of two states (Illinios, Missouri)?
  • What was there intent when they went west?

Both of these questions center on political interaction between the new Mormon communities and the existing non-Mormon communities. Remember the Rajneeshies in Oregon? The Mormons got into trouble when they began to exercise political power in the established states of Illinois and Missouri.

  • Their cities and towns were growing. They had organized militias. They were a direct political and military threat to the established power structure of these two states. They weren't persecuted so much as defeated in battle.
  • Brigham took his people to Utah to get away from the United States. They had no intention of re-joining it. Indeed, the Meadow Massacre can be looked at more in terms of one action in a low-intensity war, than as a single crime. Is there anything here about the Utah Expeditionary Force?
  • Polygamy began early in Mormon history. I personally am descended from Brigham Young’s first polygamous marriage to Lucy Ann Decker. They were married on June 14th, 1842, in Missouri.
  • Polygamy was used as a political diversion to the anti-slavery movement.
  • Polygamy had a definite theological basis.

Any comments on any of these points and how we can properly discuss them? DJohnson53 10 July 2006

  • Three, if you count Ohio.
  • Their intent, rather than "there" intent.
  • The content of Mountain Meadows is the genocide of Caucasian settlers against Native Americans. That is what led to the massacre. It was basically a Native American counter-attack, with the LDS joining in from Native American pressure.
  • In Ohio, the LDS were persecuted, not defeated in battle.
  • In Missouri and Illinois (not "Illinios"), the LDS were persecuted and defeated in battle - like the Hugenots in France.

Das Baz 16:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alimony claim

I am not saying I don't believe this to be true, but on this page it deserves a better explanation and a page-specific reference; I just added a needs citation notation to it. --Matthew K 22:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The comment I mentioned here was deleted between the edits of 06:20, 24 July 2006 and 06:47, 24 July 2006. I feel that this information could prove useful or interesting to some visitors to the site, but could get too in-depth for most. As it was, it was misleading:
"Young was perhaps the most famous polygamist of the early church. Young married some 50 women and had 57 known children. These marriages were not recognized as legally binding according to U.S. law, and in response to a suit for alimony from one of his "ex-wives", Young successfully argued in court that he owed no alimony because they were never legally married."
I have found a citation for the above, but as I noted, there is a "rest of the story." She was married to another man before she married Young (and had concealed this fact from him). So, not only was she not legally married to him because bigamy was illegal (for him according to US law), but she was not married to him because bigamy was against church marriage rules and US marriage law (for her). This information seems to be from a pro-church source: Comprehensive History of the Church of The Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by B. H. Roberts. Another source that discusses the case seems to have Comprehensive History of the Church as its only reference for this story: Zion in the Courts by Edwin Brown Firmage & Richard Collin.
I do not know how long the sentence remained in the article, but feel that undiscussed deletions like this are a terrible bane to a page that has the controversy potential this one does. Even though I do not personally miss the statement (the article seems better overall for the changes that have since been made), I just figured I would comment here that after putting a "{fact}" marker the line was deleted without comment. If someone that is more invested in this article would like, I would be glad to add it with a bit more information and the needed reference. --Matthew K 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sobriquets

Warren Jeffs reveres "Brother Brigham" and often quotes him in his speeches to FLDS members...his seclusion from this section is pov - as many of the other sobriquets are based on LDS members views on him...a different church, but still (Young) was just as influential in development and growth as he was in the more prominent LDS church. Also FLDS considers Young and Smith to both be prophets - which should be included in this article as well. Wick Griffon 13:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually - that should be mentioned in the article about Jeffs with a link back to this one --Trödel 01:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

No, a great deal of the FLDS belief is structured around polygamy - and is a direct result of the teachings of Brigham Young, to not include them here goes against Wikipedia standards for trying to be as truthful and knowledgable as possible...why should you include many sobriquets and tidbits in the beginning that are only in relation to Brighams LDS church...to be fair, other religions and povs should be included.Wick Griffon 03:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

...uh - not sure what to say here? You're complaining that the article includes information about a church that some claim that Brigham started, and others claim is the legitimate successor to JS's????? That is exactly what it should include -things Brigham did in his life, including the leadership of the church. --Trödel 03:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Not including this here has no other argument other than "it makes mormons look bad"...unless you can actually make a substantive claim why this shouldn't be included, I will continue to change it back. Wick Griffon 03:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately not - there are plenty of criminals that use the writings of others to justify their crimes. The articles on the authors of those writings do not include the information about the later criminals because the article should have information about the subject, not information about some idiot who lived 150 years later who happened to justify his/her actions based on the writings of a historical figure --Trödel 03:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

He is a criminal who is living the life that Brigham told him to...in all reality, the FLDS church has more in common with Brigham's actually teachings (polygamy, racism) than the modern LDS church does.Wick Griffon 13:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Again that belongs in the Warren Jeffs article --Trödel 02:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Every single (previous) sobriquet was pov (provided by his own churchs assessment) and therefore does not live up to wikipedia's neutral pov standards. If we were to include other, actual media based sobriquets we could add things like "Brigham the Butcher" for his role in the Mountain Meadows massacre.Wick Griffon 13:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand what WP:NPOV is about. If a person (or place, or thing, or whatever) is commonly referred to by a nickname, then it's not an editor's personal POV to include it in the article. Otherwise it would be problematic to mention others, such as noting that New York City is referred to as The Big Apple, George W. Bush is sometimes nicknamed Dubya, or, for a especially pertinent example, the Latter Day Saint movement is often called Mormonism. If you have a legitimate reference referring to Young as "Brigham the Butcher", then it may be included as well. Tijuana Brass¡Épa! 01:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wick Griffon added the following sentence: "In the Ex-Mormon community, he is often referred to as "Brigham the Butcher" (http://www.angelfire.com/az2/arizonadry/false.html)." The citation of its use on one Web page, however, does not meet the standard of verifying that this sobriquet is "often" used by members of the ex-Mormon community. I used Google to check this sobriquet and the others cited:

  • "brigham young" "brigham the butcher" - 1 reference (the one cited by Wick Griffon)
  • "brigham young" "american moses" - 9300 references
  • "brigham young" "modern moses" - 780 references
  • "brigham young" "mormon moses" - 304 references
  • "brigham young" "lion of the lord" - 339 references

According to WP:V, the "burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain." For this edit to remain, evidence is needed that the sobriquet is often used by members of the ex-Mormon community. Sanpete Slim 15:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for Brigham's wives

Most should be deleted - each person on wikipedia needs to be notable in their own respect - and most of them are only notable becaue they were married to BY. --Trödel 18:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The exceptions I see are:

---Trödel 20:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless there is an objection I plan on redirecting - or proposing for deletion - the articles which have no unique content in the next few days. --Trödel 17:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Similarly inane articles have been started for all Joseph Smith's wives. I fully support deletion for most. Mary Elizabeth Rollins is notable outside of her marriages, and should remain, though there has been little effort in developing her article. Dr U 07:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The redirects are probably fine, but I would like to note that redirecting these wives to this page (from this page) is rather silly. It might be wise to remove the "[[]]" link markers from the ones that just point to redirects to this page (otherwise someone wanting to research Brugham Young's wives will have to click on each of these links to see if there is content there or just another annoying redirect to this same page). I will do that if no one has any objection. --Matthew K 18:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Caricature

Enlarge

An unfactual cartoon doesn't help the cause of truth. --Coldblackice 22:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I concede that the image was intended to be derogatory and is somewhat silly; nonetheless, the cartoon itself could be seen as a factual representation of public opinion of Young in his own day. If everyone thinks it good to delete this image, out it stays. Does anyone feel it best to leave this here? --Matthew K 18:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

There needs to be an entry made on this article in regards to how and when he passed away.

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