Talk:Bread

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I deleted the Cheese and Broccolli and French bread recipes as they added nothing to this entry. The French bread recipe was useless as it clearly stated at the end that it wasn't a French bread recipe. As for the cheese and brocolli one there are thousands of recipes for different kinds of bread and they can't all be listed here. Charlie

Why has my whole paragraph about bread in Germany been deleted? Germany is world champion in bread consumption. Is that not worth to be mentioned here? It was my first contribution to wikipedia - what a disappointment that someone deletes it completely without a comment.

I did not delete your paragraph about bread in germany but i would suggest that you make it its own entry with a link to it on the bread page. the information is overly specific given the general nature of the remainder of the article. I.E. there are no Bread in France or Bread in China sections. also the first sentence "Germans are crazy about bread" is a little informal for an encyclopedic article. mhbourne 00:31 PDT, 20 Sept 2005

The French are crazy (strictly, deviens fou) about bread too! Wikipedia is tough on authors - hang in there and keep contributing. Just keep things factual. JohnSankey 19:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I took out the "no yeast" comment from the sourdough link. Although strictly gramatically correct as it was written, it's misleading - sourdough does contain yeasts, natural ones that are all around us even in flour. A person who is sensitive to yeasts may still have problems with sourdough breads. JohnSankey 13:56, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Should a recepe be included in the definition of bread? Probably not.
  • This definition leaves some huge holes. How do you fit cornbread, and unleavened breads like pita, matza, etc. Are all speciality breads like rye, made using wheat flour? Not sure how to change this or I would try myself. --rmhermen - 15:43, 25 Feb 2002
  • Looks like somebody has addressed these points now. -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Bread Recipes

  • Obviously meant for industrial-sized households? :) I know very little about the fine art of bread-making, and defer further changes to those who do. -- -- April
  • Guess that reference has gone now (been fixed), but the section taken from the Household Cyclopedia of 1881, is still noticably old in its writing style, and in the units of measurement used ('quarts of water' etc). I say we delete it, and go with the section below. We need to do something like this, since we currently have two sections titled 'Recipes' -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I'll tell you what, though, the one in the entry as it stands is not very likely to produce anything worth eating, as it recommends adding the yeast to boiling water. Which will of course kill it instantly. -- dzd, 23 May 2005

[edit] Best thing since sliced bread

  • Is there really anything that great about "sliced bread", and what's the point of the end pieces? Do they serve any real benefit, in terms of the form of the others? -- 199.8.171.180 - 22:20, 12 Oct 2004
  • Hmmmm. An interesting question, and one which science surely has no answer to :-) -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I actually find that the bread dries out more quickly without the end pieces. 22-May-2005
  • I agree it helps to keep the rest of the loaf fresh. But also it gives you something to eat if you run out of bread before buying more. --JimmyTheWig 4 July 2005 10:43 (UTC)
  • I believe that the ball point pen is the best thing since sliced bread. --JimmyTheWig 4 July 2005 10:43 (UTC)
  • I gave my dog the end piece of the loaf of bread. He thought it was delicious!! 9 august 2005

The ends of the loaf are the best part. We fight over them at home

  • The ends of a fresh loaf, with a real crust are good. The ends of most mass-produced breads aren't so good. They do keep the rest of the bread from drying out, and they do let you have one more sandwich if you forget to go to the store.--RLent 21:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baguettes

"Many breads (such as the famous baguette) are made from a straight dough, which means that all of the ingredients are combined in one step, and the dough baked after the rising time."

I'm not sure this is correct; a baguette - the ones I know - are made with a starter called a "poolish" . This starter dough in either based on bakery yeast or sourdough and is left to rise in a refrigerator for about 12 hours/overnight. This practise was introduced by Polish bakers in the 1840s and adopted in France in the 1920s for making baguettes. I have this from two (swedish) books by artisan bakers; Jan Hedh and Johan Sörberg.

[edit] Old view of cereals

I've deleted this text

The development of leavened bread is commonly believed to have occurred in Egypt, due to its favorable wheat growing conditions, and required the development of wheat varieties with two properties not available in earlier varieties. The first development occurred by the beginning of Dynastic Egypt and consisted of a grain that could be satisfactorily threshed without being first toasted. Discovery of a wheat variety containing sufficient gluten-forming protein was the second development required for raised bread. Initial development of leavened bread is believed to have occurred during the 17th century BC, but the wheat capable of producing it appears to have been rare for a very long time after it was initially developed. This scarcity is suggested by the fact that such grain did not become common in Ancient Greece until the 4th Century BC despite regular trade having occurred between Egypt and Greece for the previous 300 years.

as it represents a very garbled understanding of the history of bread & wheat. The fact is that emmer wheat, cultivated since the Neolithic, makes excellent risen bread, which was widely consumed in Ancient Egypt. It is true that spelt wheat and bread wheat (neither grown in ancient Egypt) make (arguably) even better risen bread, but we have a very incomplete understanding of which wheat species was preferred where, and for exactly what culinary use. Mark Nesbitt 12:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I have restore the section in question. The text you removed contains inline citations (inotes) to the references that were used to generate the text, so the removed text is clearly not original research or unverifiable. The development of yeast leavening is also a major development in the way that bread was produced so eliminating this development for the history section seems somewhat excessive. If you have access to additional sources to help fill in some more detail or see a way to copyedit the text to flow better please feel free to do so. If you still feel the need to remove sections, there are still large tracks of text in the article that have no references and are thus eligable for deletion under the terms of WP:V. --Allen3 talk 13:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
But the text is nonsense! But I take your point - it's not enough to delete, one must replace it with something better, which I have done. Mark Nesbitt 15:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • May I have permission to cite Sylvester Graham's On Bread and Bread Making? Also to cite the value of whole grains to the human diet the medical textbooks by Dr. John Kellogg, Autointoxication and Natural Diet of Man?

[edit] Yeast

When was yeast first used? I don't mean a sourdough, I mean yeast as a seperate ingredient. We can buy jars of yeast, but that wasn't always available. I'm curious when people first started making yeast as opposed to using a sourdough.--RLent 21:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

According to [1], it was shortly after Pasteur "discovered" yeast in the 1860s. This is almost but not quite covered in the Yeast (baking) article. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnocentric

This is a very good article, but it strikes me as being somwhat ethnocentric - it gives European and North American bread much more attention than bread from other countries. There is mention of Matzos, and of unleavened bread in the history section, but it doesn't say much about bread in other countries today. There's a whole section on French, Danish & German bread, but having just eaten some Morrocan bread, I'm wondering where the section on Middle Eastern bread is. Surely someone knows a lot more about Middle Eastern bread than I do, not to mention bread in India and Africa. So please add some info about it and we can get rid of the cultural bias! :) ~~Saluton~~

[edit] Asians

"Bread is a popular food in Western and most other societies except for the Asian societies that typically prefer rice". I don't think so. In both India and China, people eat rice in the South and bread in the North. It probably has more to do with the climates in which wheat and rice grow than with the inscrutable tastes of those cunning orientals. Ferdinand Pienaar 14:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. In Wiki there are already articles on Mantou and Bing(Chinese flat bread), traditional staples in Northern China. In this case Northern China doesn't mean Mongolia etc, but more northeasterly locations such as Beijing. In this view bread has just as much heritage as rice does in China.

[edit] Image placement

The top of this article seems to be overwhelmed with right-aligned images. I propose either dispersing the images throughout the article and/or moving some to be left-aligned and/or adding an image gallery.Dav2008 15:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a gallery. I think it looks MUCH better. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, but maybe a single representative picture in the top right wouldn't hurt. Han-Kwang 08:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

I removed the french bread section as it was blatantly copied from this website: http://www.freshloaf.co.uk/French-loaf-52 I'll look through the rest of the article to check for mroe violations--Crossmr 02:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stalilonis

I removed the following text from the "Types" section:

Another type of bread popular mainly in Plaistow, NH is stalilonis. It is a thin, wheat bread with beer being the active yeast. It was created in Worcester by Lithuanian immigrants in the late 20th century. Stalilonis is inexpensive and is traditionally consumed with bologna and cream cheese.

As much as I love Plaistow (oh yeah, I've been there), I think it's not quite a substantial enough metropolis for stalilonis being mentioned as a specific type of bread. It doesn't pass the Google test, either, although I have had it-- I mean, it does exist. If anybody wants to write one, stalilonis belongs in its own article. Iamvered 18:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unlisted Bread Types

Does anybody know anything about Laffa/Esh Tanur bread. It is very popular in middle eastern countries, sort of a cross between pita and lavash bread and is frequently used interchangably with pita in restaurants (at least in Israel). It is pocketless, is, thinner than pita and is used as a wrap. Esh Tanur is a hebrew term literally meaning "oven fire" Valley2city 16:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. --- The Bethling(Talk) 23:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good article. Bread is obviously a messy subject because it means lots of different things to different people in different cultures. I've been meaning to put the 'Denmark and Bread' section on its own page for ages. Quite how the words 'zucchini', 'raisins', 'pumpkin' and 'bananas' made it into the first paragraph of an article about bread I don't know.--Moonlight Mile 11:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually I am going to go as far as to delist it as a good article.--Moonlight Mile 11:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That's alot of bread! Untrue?

I removed the following line from the "Bread in Germany" section: 82 million people consume around 1,100,000 tons of bread, 5,024,000,000 rolls and 454,000,000 pretzels per year. This is a world record. These numbers seem a little large to me, and they are definitely unreferenced. Can somebody provide a source for or against it? – ClockworkSoul 07:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pitot

The article states that pitot is Hebrew for pita. I'm no expert, but isn't pitot the Hebrew plural of pita?

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