Talk:Brazil Nut

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Contents 1 In Brazil 2 "Nigger toes" slang term 3 Capitalization? 4 Only shelled nuts available to buy?

[edit] In Brazil

What are Brazil nuts called in Brazil? Kent Wang 21:28, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They are called "Castanha do Pará". Pará is a state in Northern Brazil. PMLF 21:28, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Nigger toes" slang term

I can confirm that (sad to say) the racist term for these nuts, deleted by MPF as "unverified", has in fact been in use in the U.S.A. although I don't know just how widespread it may be. Do we pretend it doesn't exist out of ethnic/cultural sensitivity or political correctness? (I have always found this term to be extremely offensive and won't be the one to put it back in.) MrDarwin 16:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

there is even a redirect from nigger toes to Barzil nut - how can you say it is unsubstantiated. BTW, see also "Nigger in popular culture" in the wikipedia article on nigger. As an African American, I can appreciate your sensitivity but racism should not be hidden as if it never existed - that's dangerous. (unsigned comment by User:Butros)

Butros, do you see any way the term could be put back into the article while maintaining some measure of sensitivity? MrDarwin 14:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd want to see two things if it is going back in:

• a citation (a redirect is not a citation)
• some discussion of what it adds to the article. - Csari 01:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

What it adds to the article is factual information, and it's standard for Wikipedia articles on plant species to include common (vernacular) names. Facts are sometimes unpleasant. MrDarwin 14:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

OED 2nd ed. offers this:

6. attrib. (passing into adj.) ... c. In special uses ... nigger toe U.S., a Brazil nut

• 1896 Dialect Notes I. 421 *Nigger toes: for Brazil nuts.
• 1958 J. M. Lacy in A. Dundes Mother Wit (1973) 597/2 He buys..nuts called 'nigger toes'.
• 1973 Times 27 Aug. 5/8 In Virginia brazil nuts are called nigger-toes and chewed with great relish.

Worded as a nonjudgmental statement of fact it appears encyclopedic enough to me. Femto 17:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced information doesn't belong in Wikipedia (WP:CITE). Even if it were sourced, I'd still delete it. Wikipedia is NOT "an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." Some information can disappear; I will not mourn its loss.--Walter Siegmund (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC) (Preceeding comment was copied from User talk:MPF.) That said, Butros' point is a good one. But, I don't think it should go back in without providing some context for younger and/or non-American readers, e.g., nigger, Jim Crow laws, etc. I wouldn't want people using Nigger toes for Brazil nuts citing Wikipedia as justification. My preference would be to treat racism in context, however, not in articles where it isn't germane to the subject. Of course, its presence here is evidence of its ubiquity.
During a 1966 telescope meeting, in a talk on the history of the construction of the 200 inch telescope on Mount Palomar, an astronomer described moving large parts up "Nigger Grade". (This is from memory.) (1966) Crawford, David Livingstone: The Construction of large telescopes, International Astronomical Union. Symposium no. 27, London, New York: Academic Press, 234. I suppose you could make the argument for including that information in articles on the 200 inch telescope or on telescope design and construction. It was published by a reputable publisher. But it is really not relevant there, nor is it here, in my judgement. --Walter Siegmund (talk) 23:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Walter. Berton 00:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Let's face it. This debate would not be occurring at all if the former colloquial term for a brown-skinned Brazil nut was "gorilla toe" or "chocolate toe" or was even something brown and unpleasant that deserves to be elided from the lexicon, such as "feces toe" (all hypothetical/rhetorical to demonstrate my point). The article would just matter-of-factly state: "The term “feces toe” has fallen into disuse during the latter 20th century, as the more erudite and polite term “Brazil nut” has risen in frequency of usage in the American dialect of English." (Can that sentence be any more encyclopedic? Perhaps only by giving an empircal linguistic reference too.) The opposition to even mentioning that the antiquated term has fallen into disuse in the article is in itself predicated on racism or race-consciousness revisionism of factual history, whichever one wants to call it. —optikos 20:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Opitikos, i have edited to article to reflect this but have used less complex language. Even though i believe that the term is objectionable, the simple fact is that the truth, no matter how terrible or objectionable, should be always be conveyed. Let the readers make their own judgments, don't simply use censorship to achieve your own benevolent ends. --71.146.31.46 09:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I have lived in the United States and that term has never been used. If it has it has been used it definitely is not common. I have never heard it. You are not from the US yet you insist on readding it the description with no proof it has ever been used. Perhaps you are thinking of the UK. How many other message boards or wikipedia entries have you vandalized with you juvenile pranks? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.42.72.31 (talk • contribs) .

It's in the OED, for one, and there are several online accounts. So what, you can live in the US and never hear soda called pop. Yes, I'm neither from the US or UK and don't want historically relevant slang terms get swept under the carpet. Your unilateral removal is disruptive. Groundless accusations of vandalism do not strengthen your point. Do not repeat this. Femto 21:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Femto. I have heard it used a number of times in the Midwest. It is a part of the American colloquial lexicon. The current phrasing is acceptable and the entry should be left alone.Spikey 07:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I hear soda called pop everyday... I lived on both coasts, north and south. This is your juvenile prank which is simply proven by your insistence that it be displayed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.42.72.31 (talk • contribs) .

This article is missing an image of an deshelled brazil nut. When one sees the brown skin that an deshelled brazil nut has, it is obviously in the shape of an oversized human (or generally mammalian) toe and with a brown skin, it is obvious how the widespread unfortunate use of "nigger toe" in the USA occurred (as opposed to calling it a Swedish toe or a British toe). I grew up during the 1970s in the Great Lakes region of the USA (well outside of The South) just a mile away from a house that was on the Underground Railroad and everyone that I know called them nigger toes (including black people) until approximately the 1970s or 1980s when parents were trying to break their next-generation children of the habit. In fact the term was so widespread that many people who wanted to stop calling them nigger toes did not know any other term for them. Having grown up in a family that did not tolerate racism, we still used the term "nigger toes" for brazil nuts, as it was the first name that I learned for them at age 3 or so and was the only name for them that I knew until age 7 or 8. I remember each and every holiday season this coming up for debate every time a can of mixed nuts was present in a room with multiple people in it. The desire to avoid calling them by their derogatory name was so strong that I remember people explicitly shopping for cans of mixed nuts that omitted brazil nuts to avoid the entire perennial debate; their viewpoint was to strike the term from the lexicon by striking the nut from the household. This article should respectfully state that the former term "nigger toe" for these nuts has fallen into disuse during the latter 20th century (without further explanation or embellishment). But most importantly this article needs an image of an deshelled brazil nut (with its brown skin left on as is the customary serving practice), even if the text "nigger toes" is forever considered off-limits in this article. To strike the term by striking the image is as silly as my aforementioned striking of the term by striking the nut from the Holiday season. —optikos 20:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

They don't look like toes at all.

I'm opposed to racial insensitivity like most others, but this is ridiculous. The mention of the "nigger toes" term in the current version of the article is loaded with a sense of politically correct hesitation and moral bias. It's as if the writer was so uncomfortable with the existence of this historical fact that they felt the need to announce their disapproval of it.

The sentence reads: "An old pejorative slang term in the United States was 'nigger toes'." However, not only is the term poorly mentioned (along with an ambiguous reference to its purported antiquity), its label isn't even accurate. Going by the Wikipedia article for "pejorative" that it linked to: "A word or phrase is pejorative if it implies contempt or disapproval." Yet the term "nigger toes" is not a pejorative term for the Brazil Nut, given that it does not aim to disparage or belittle the nut itself. Yes, it was a slang term; yes, it was a term based on another term that was often (but not always) used pejoratively; but, no, it was not a pejorative term in itself. Furthermore, I doubt that many people who referred to Brazil Nuts as "nigger toes" meant it in a disrespectful way, regardless of the insensitivity (or silliness) many of us may personally find in it today. Either way, however, the 'properness' of its usage is not relevant to its inclusion—it was a common and widespread term (which I can also personally attest to, though I've never used it myself), and thus bears mentioning as a fact of history, regrettable or not.

Afterall, Wikipedia is a source of encyclopedic information; it should not be a place to espouse personal views. Removing or censoring any facts that might be deemed offensible by some would be to misunderstand its purpose and to misrepresent its content. You are doing no service to its readers by making moral judgments for them, or by deciding which information they should have access to.

That being said, I have modified the sentence to state the following: "Though it has largely fallen into disuse since the latter 20th century, a common slang term for the nuts in some regions of the United States was "nigger toes", due to some finding a similarity in appearance between the unshelled nuts and the toes of African Americans." --— Poga — 08:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization?

Is there any reason why the second word of the title is capitalized? On wiki articles with multiple word titles, the first letter of the other words are left lower case (unless it is the title of a book, or movie, etc.) I was just curious if there was a specific reason, or if it should be changed. cøøkiə Ξ _(talk) 02:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, at least some of the biology WikiProjects have guidelines to treat names like this as proper nouns (it's not "nut, Brazilian" but a compound term "Brazil Nut"). Similar, Bottlenose Dolphin, there may be further pointers buried in its talk page. I'd say if it ain't broke don't fix it. Femto 11:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In accordance with WP naming conventions, I'm pretty sure that it should be located at Brazil nut. DWaterson 21:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only shelled nuts available to buy?

I vaguely remember that it became illegal to buy / import Brazil nuts in a unshelled state in the UK for some health reason. Can anyone confirm this? Markb 12:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)