Talk:Bowline
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In the picture of the lightning method, I believe the working end would come out on the outside of the loop, wouldn't it? I think the working end needs to continue in the arc, working through that bight back towards the crossing turn, before the two ends are pulled. I use this method of tying the knot all the time and find its only fault is that it can be easy to have the working end come out on the outside of the loop.
Yes, the sheet bend is actually the same knot. take the working end of the line that hitches around the bight of the other line, then take the standing part of the bight's line. Hold the two together as if they were one line making a loop, and you'll see how they're identical.
Greg
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- Regarding the lightning method: I had a piece of string lying around and tried it. The method results in a regular bowline (loose end inside) not the Dutch Bowline type (loose end outside).
- --Netizen 10:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Both Hervey Smith (Arts of the Sailor, Marlinspike Sailor) and Clifford Ashley (The Book of knots) assert that the tail of the bowline should be tied on inside. In testing the sheet bend (closely related in form) Ashley found that the reversed knot was half as a secure as the proper knot.
The comment that the rope will break before the knot is true for all knots. The important question is by how much will a given knot weaken a rope? The overhand knot is among the worst, and is accepted to weaken a line by ~50%. Many a seamstress will break her thread instead of reaching for the scissors - just by tying an overhand knot where she wants the thread to break and tugging.
Knots weaken rope by compressing/crushing the fibers. The bowline does not draw up as tightly as the overhand (one of the reasons that it is easier to untie). It weakens the rope to about 70% of its original strength.
1 -- So what is this magic one-handed method of tying a bowline that is so superior to the traditional bunny?
2 -- Wouldn't it be better, i.e., more informative, if the bowline on a bight were discussed and described in the same article? Ortolan88
Hi, Satsun. Two carriage returns makes a paragraph. The <break> thing just makes a line break.
You don't have to put the ? mark next to unwritten articles, wiki already distinguishes between existing and nonexistent arguments. Ortolan88
Hi Ortolan88:
Point 1. I hope to provide pictures for tying each knot, including the bowline. That way I can keep the word descriptions succinct. I'm only on phase one of this project so I'll defer the instruction until phase two.
Point 2. I agree that the connection between the two knots should be made for the user. A word or two why there is a connection and a link is adequate. To fully describe another knot under the name of the first knot will lead to duplication. I feel this approach could lead to confusion, and missing/over-looking information for our users.
I am only now starting to settle in on a format for the articles. I appreciate that you have been patient. I agree the content can be improve. I am making another sweep through the articles improving the content. There will be hundreds of insites by you and others that will be added.
In a later round I'll add the tying pictures. This is a huge job! At 300+ knots it approaches in quality the typical knot books in print.
Thanks about the 'two returns' = paragraph. I've start to use 'break's as you suggest.
I've started to master the link thing. Got a few wrong earlier.
Got to go sweep some more.
Satsun, Friday, June 21, 2002
Just a small note:
If my cub scouts tied the bowline as shown on the picture, I would correct them and help them redo it with the end coming out on the outside, and not inside the loop. Frode H
- Hi Frode H,
- You can tie it both ways, and it's correct - depending where later will be more interference. When sailing smaler boats you use this knot usually for connecting the sheet on the clew - and there this knot is beaten around - better to have the end on the inside, otherwise the end might "pushed" into the knot and so slowly losened (and sometimes detached).
- The one thing there the picture _is_ questionable: the end is much to short and makes the knot very unsecure. --Hella (gut Pfad, I've been a scout leader, too)
What does 'Releasing: Non-jamming' and 'Efficiency: 60-75%' mean? I have no what information these sections are trying to impart. --dcf 17:30, 2004 Jun 20 (UTC)
- Releasing means how difficult it is to untie the knot after load. If I understod it correctly, efficiency is about how effective the knot is compared to a not knotted rope (here you'd probably compare a naturaly worked in loop created by the rope maker whith the Bowline). And yes, it might be a good idea to have an explanation somewhere. Maybe a knotting native speaker will do so? --Hella 08:01, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC), who is at least not a native speaker
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[edit] Main Line??
Commonly used in sailing small craft to secure the top of the main sheet to the main line. I have been sailing since I was 5 years old and never heard of the main line! If you are going to tie top (?) the main sheet anywhere it could be on to the boom. (Note for non sailors the main sheet is a rope controlling the mainsail).
Suggestions: A bowline is commonly used to bend a halyard on to the head of a sail, or may may be used to bend jib sheets to the clew of the jib. Billlion 22:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Lightning Method
Could you explain the lightning method in more detail please? The link to slip knot turns out to be not really helpful - what sort of slip knot? vignaux 01:24, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)
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How's this? If you can find a good place for it in the article, feel free to add it somewhere. - sik0fewl 07:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Bowline step-by-step (lightning method)
Hi, I just came by this site. I am Ben Walker, the inventer of the Jedi Bowline. This very fun bowline has been re-named the "Benjai Bowline", because of Star Wars movie copyrights and my name is not Jed. I taught this method to thousands of Boy Scouts at Camp Chawanakee and at Boy Scout Academy. It is only fast (under one second!) if the hands are placed correctly. I have a video clip that I will try to make available. Note that the end of the rope can be on the outside or inside, but for very good reasons it is prefered on the outside because of the slipperiness of modern line materials. I hope to contribute more as I learn to use Wikipedia.
- So the way shown at the top of the article is the less secure way to do a bowline? - sik0fewl 02:07, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the knot at the top of the main bowline article, end on the inside, is less secure. Although the rope's breaking strength may possibly be reduced by the tighter bends of the Benjai Bowline (with the end on the outside). I must find the time to get in on this Wikipedia stuff, and write more. Try this experiment for yourself. Tie the bowline with the end on inside and also on the outside. Then simulate ocean wave action, tugging up and down on the bowline's bunny tree. The end of the bowline on the inside will untie itself almost magically. A tight overhand pre-tied on the end of the line is one way to "lock" a bowline to prevent this. There are several other more secure ways to lock a bowline, but this one can be done before you spend the one second require to tie a Benjai Bowline. It's all about hand placement, ease of learning, and spectacular fun. -Ben Walker
[edit] Safety risks of Jedi / Benjai?
After reading the assertion that the new method of tying the knot makes a more secure knot, it seems to me that a knot with different properties should be described as a different knot, not just a different way of tying the bowline.
I suspect that the new knot may have some unexpected / undiscovered problems when compared to the classic, well-understood knot that has been used for centures.
I am concerned that innocent people could look for the well-regarded "bowline," inadvertently use the new knot instead, and become injured in the process.
I am concerned that this article is written by "fans" of the "cool new Jedi knot" and does not present NPOV.
- There are only two types of bowlines: end-on-the-inside and end-on-the-outside. See the discussion above. Both methods for tying the bowline (bunny and "Jedi") can lead to both types, depending on the direction in which you feed the free end. Once the knot is tied, it is impossible to tell whether you used a bunny or Jedi method.
- In fact it is easy to see that the Jedi method is equivalent to the bunny method. In "bunny language", the Jedi method works as follows: "Pull the tree down the hole, take the bunny around it, then pull the tree back out of the hole". This is the same as if the bunny had come out of the hole, gone around the tree, then back down the hole. It's not really a different method at all! My only slight criticism of the Jedi method is that it's more difficult to see whether the result will be end-on-the-inside or end-on-the-outside. Mtford 09:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Top diagram
Is it just me or is the top diagram, Image:Bowline.gif, incorrect? The initial loop looks to me the wrong way round, which results in the full knot simplifying to just an overhand knot. BigBlueFish 10:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes the initial loop is the wrong way, the lead line needs to be underneath, not over. or the 'rabbit' needs to come out of the hole the other way.
- Yikes!! I have replaced that diagram with a photo of a Bowline. It is a more than a little scary that other diagram apparently sat up there for more than six months—good job spotting it Bigbluefish... I'll need to read up on image deletion policy, but my vote would be for Image:Bowline.gif to be erased forever. :) --Dfred 01:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Safety issues
It would be good to mention some problems with the bowline. It is a very good knot that has many uses but is not without problems. Personally, I wouldn't use it in a situation where if it untied someone would get hurt or killed. I think it's main feature is that it can carry a heavy load without binding. We should at least mention that a stopper knot is recommended if safety is a concern. --Nascheme 06:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
