Talk:Bosnian Genocide

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[edit] All the Kids are united!!!

OK, kids, that was enough. Please stop this stupid edit war and start thinking about what to do with information in this article. Obviously it can't be called "Bosnian genocide" since (1) it's not a name commonly used to refer to the events and (2) it's an open invitation to edit warring. I suggest that we find a better name, like Bosnian war or War in Bosnia and write about its history properly. Zocky 13:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The reason for the name of this article was based on the Rwandan Genocide article. Just because some cannot personally deal with facts and the thruth is a weak excuse.--Dado 15:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Dado, Rwandan Genocide was actually just one event, so it's known after that name. "Bosnian Genocide" is a vague term, and like Zocky said, it just begs for edit wars. --Dejan Cabrilo 03:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Well I have raised this issue of a single event at Talk:Srebrenica Massacre page as a move to rename the article Srebrenica Genocide. Please see that page for more info. It is a bit dual standard if you are willing to name Rwanda Genocide and not name Bosnian Genocide while they were both proven by the same institution International Criminal Tribunals for Rwanda and Yugoslavia. So far there has been only one person (who is still stuck in the eigth stage of the genocide see Genocide Watch - The Eight Stages of Genocide) has been willing to pursue an edit war on this article and looking at his other activity at Wikipedia it does not surprise me. Others have been constructive on this article. I do agree that this is a bit controversial topic but only because there is a small number of people who are willing to pursue an edit war for whatever personal subjective reasons. I will repeat that just because some cannot deal with facts and the truth it is a weak excuse to question the merits of this article.--Dado 16:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Dado, I see your point, and I do not wish to undermine any attrocities committed in Bosnia. I am just saying that Rwandan Genocide is something that took place within few days, while it is unclear what would Bosnian Genocide be (there were many instances of massacres, of course... but hardly as a continuing spree that you can define by one name). Srebrenica Massacre is a better concept, for sure. --Dejan Cabrilo 01:15, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Argh.. that just looks wrong :) What I wanted to say, of course, is that one article for one instance of genocide is a better concept than one article for all of war crimes. --Dejan Cabrilo 01:15, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Genocide

The only case which ICTY declared as a genocide in Bosnia so far (2005.5.) is Srebrenica. If you have links under ICTY which show different, please give them clearly. If you cannot, the only officialy proved genocide in Bosnia were in Srebrenica. --User:oldadamml

You are correct. The only Bosnian Genocide that was proven so far in ICTY took place in Srebrenica. So why are you removing the entire page which is pretty much what is said in the judgement Prosecutor vs Krstic. In fact the article talks about what you are saying specifically. --Dado 13:45, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not removing the entire page, I just considered ICTY facts. You mentioned http://www.un.org/icty/krstic/Appeal/judgement/index.htm. There are no any mentioned Prijedor, Sarajevo, Banja Luka or others victims there. --User:oldadamml

I am stating again that you are correct that the only Bosnian Genocide that was proven at ICTY so far took place in Srebrenica. However what you are not saying is what I am exposing in this article and that is there are several other genocide proceedings currently going and few indictments for persons still at large responsible for genocide at the entire teritory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. See

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mla-ai021010e.htm

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ai000428e.htm

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ai040421-e.htm

Also see Schedule A and C for Milosevic trial. I know that you will say that these cases are not yet finished which is true and article stresses that any increase in numbers will take place only after these cases are complete. However it is critical to say that story is not over yet and that additional circumstances need to be considered as the scope of the genocide in Bosnia may increase.

-- Those are indictments and Schedule A and shedule C is irrelevant so far. Let's wait for the judgment. --User:oldadamml

Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic have been indicticed for genocide on the entire teritory of BiH (including Banja Luka, Prijedor and other areas)

[edit] Name of the article

Can anybody provide proof that "Bosnian genocide" refers to "The Bosnian Genocide was an organized murder of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the Bosnian War between 1992 and 1995, where authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army targeted for extinction a wide group of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks)", i.e. that it excludes attrocities by Serbs against Croats, by Croats against Bosniaks and Serbs and by Bosniaks against Croats and Serbs?

It seems to me that this should be dealt in a section in the article Bosnian war or War in Bosnia, (which we still don't have) or in an article called War crimes in the Bosnian war. OTOH, if the point is just to describe what ICTY thinks about it, it should probably be merged to ICTY. Zocky 10:24, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Even if contributors were to do everything you recommend, one could still re-create the Bosnian Genocide article and start writing "The Bosnian Genocide was an organized murder of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the Bosnian War between 1992 and 1995, where authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army targeted for extinction a wide group of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks)". IMHO, more importantly, contributors here should follow Wikipedia's dispute policies.--AI 10:34, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, apologies if I'm out of line (literally meant--I'm not sure how to use these discussion boards so I'm just taking a guess). The term "Bosnian Genocide" (and similar expressions) are recognized in the academic spheres of Political Science, History, and Peace Studies. I've just completed a university course centered on genocide. Amongst numerous texts, I would recommend Century of Genocide to anyone who thinks that something as factual as the very title of this article is not neutral. The relevant chapter is entitled "Genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina." Sound familiar? --Adtrace 07:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hmmm...

I don't see that a lot of war crimes on this page (other then Srebrenica Massacre) are relevant to the page about genocide. Similar killings (not including Srebrenica) was on other sides, too. It would be usefull to say the sum of other killings, because the sum says the general number of killed people. It would be better to make other page about all victims of the Bosnian War. --Millosh 01:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, "proven by ICTY", as it is said, is only Srebrenica massacre/genocide, so it should be said in different way. However, statement about authorities of Republica Srpska is truth (I know that from Serbian side.) Also, "wide group of Bosniaks" should be explained. --Millosh 01:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that no mass killing of women and children was, too. --Millosh 01:42, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

First I would ask you to refer to the discussion on the Talk:Srebrenica Massacre where I raised an issue that given article should be renamed Srebrenica Genocide in light of the ICTY judgement which states this cearly and explains why. Some of the rethoric such as "wide group of Bosniaks" was taken directly from the judgement narrative of the Prosecutor vs Krstic case which proved the genocide.

The point was raised at the talk page that Srebrenica Massacre can be called a genocide only in a larger context as in case of Rwandan Genocide in a context of a country. Given this and also the parallels between the ICTY and ICTR and their genocide judgements it made only logical to start this article under its given name.

Other information noted in this article is clearly marked as being depended on other genocide proceedings (which are relevant). Perhaps noting which proceedings would help. I am not excluding a possiblity the the main definition of this article may evolve to include genocide over Croats as well (as there are Genocide indictments currently at ICTY that claim this) and to include information on the genocide on Serbs if any such indictment ever take place. If you agree with this concept we can resolve details easily (I hope).

Also I support the idea that there should be an article about Bosnian War to include all victims of the war --Dado 04:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Millosh, there are also some discussions that took place at Talk:Banja Luka that you may find interesting regarding the crediblity of the person that initiated this edit war and lost any NPOV consideration on my part for further discussion. This is not a fair nor a productive way to initiate a discussion on this topic while the same individual still has an open door policy to vandalize both articles as he sees fit. --Dado 04:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I did read both talk pages and I'll explain my position: --Millosh 06:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Genocide is a hard word and it mainly refers to Holocaust: organized killings of millions of human beings because of ideology of supreme nation. During the Bosnian war there were no such ideology and there were no organized killings of all members of some population. However, there were ideology of ethnic clean territories, a lot of hate, ordinary killers and people with mental disorders with guns, as well as one organized mass killings of the male part of one population. With those facts, I prefer to call article Srebrenica Genocide, but I prefer to move this article into the name like War crimes during the War in Bosnia, which should intend to describe all war crimes during that war. --Millosh 06:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I think that it is malicious not to call event in Srebrenica as genocide -- only because there were no killings of women and children. It can be treated as "revenge" or whatever, but it was organized mass killings of one part of one group of people, based on ethnicity and/or religion. However, it was not general behaviour of authorities of RS during the war, such was in Rwanda, such was in Nazi Germany. However, again, we should carefully research one by one event. Inside of this article I see very different numbers: (1) if one human is killed, it is a crime; (2) if couple of humans are killed, it was a big crime; (3) if 10 or 100 soldiers were killed after their surrendering, it was a big war crime; (4) but, if 10 or 100 people, not soldiers, were killed to make territory "ethnic clean", it was a genocide, too. So, if we find some other such event, we can call it as genocide. But, with a lot of respect to all of victims, we should be very conservative in naming something as genocide. I think it is better to waste a lot of time in gathering relevant information before we put that name. --Millosh 06:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

And to ask here for better organization: May we gather all problematic articles on one place (at the m:Balkan NPOV page) and start to work on those problems? I would refer to the page of resolving conflict between Polishes and Germans: Talk:Gdansk/Vote/Notice. Our situation is more complicated, so I am sure that such notice would not be enough. But, we should work on that. Also, I think that we should make NPOV pages here and to implement it on our local Wikipedias. However, I am sure that it is problematic question. In general, I can say that any page about this matter which is NPOV would be implemented in Serbian Wikipedia. --Millosh 06:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

And about User:oldadamml: It seems that he is finding some relevant data. It seems that he doesn't know how work on Wikipedia looks like, too. Remember what did say two persons from Bosnian Wikipedia (on Bosnian Wikipedia) to me only because I am from Serbian Wikipedia. Even they didn't (and don't) know what I am by origin (and we can talk about that a lot). So, we should try to talk. And I am glad to see that you are ready to talk. --Millosh 06:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

(The point of the last paragraph is that people who tasted the war are very sensible about their identity. User:oldadamml is from Banja Luka and I think that two persons from bs: lived in Bosnia during the war.) --Millosh 06:16, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

We can move this to BalkanNPOV but I find it useful to be on this page as well for others to reference. We could copy it to have a record on both pages once we are done.

I do agree that genocide is a strong word. This word is not something that should be used easily hence I point to sources that have the credibility to call something genocide (ie. ICTY). If you have issue with the credibility of ICTY that is another discussion.

But regardless, let’s take for the sake of discussion that ICTY is a credible source. In that case our personal opinions should not matter (NPOV Wiki policy). Following is an exact official narrative issued by ICTY regarding the Srebrenica massacre:

“In Prosecutor v. Krstic, a landmark ruling that put to rest any doubts about the legal character of the massacre, the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia unanimously ruled that it was an act of genocide. As the Chamber’s judgment states:

By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the 40,000 Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general.…The Appeals Chamber states unequivocally that the law condemns, in appropriate terms, the deep and lasting injury inflicted, and calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide. Those responsible will bear this stigma, and it will serve as a warning to those who may in future contemplate the commission of such a heinous act.”

There are clear gradations of crimes that are identified at the ICT ranging from incidents, to murders, war crimes, massacres, genocides and holocausts in such order. There should not be any confusion that genocide is not a holocaust. You cannot relate holocaust of 6 million Jews and 5 million Slavs and Roma in WW II with genocide of 8000 Bosnians in Srebrenica hence the difference in terminology. I could relate them on another level to say that they were both genocides but that WWII crimes went a step further.

For all these reasons I think it is fruitless to discuss if the genocide in Srebrenica was really genocide but rather killing in revenge, killing of male only, killing of POV’s etc. etc. The main question is if you are willing to accept ICTY ruling as a credible source. I should also point out that there were and still are those who question the credibility of Nuremberg trials although it was probably most beneficial for German people in the long run.

Now if you and others have trouble understanding and accepting what ICTY is and what it means than I will certainly talk about those issues. I will help you find information on how they arrived to their judgments as I am certain that all of those points that you are stating some of which are credible to a certain degree were also raised at the ICTY during the genocide proceedings. I will not however negotiate facts and judgments that were accepted at ICTY just because they don’t feel cozy to some. On the other hand you will find accepting it a much better alternative to get closure on this subject than to allow the situation to escalate where emotions and people who cannot control them take the issue over (on both sides).--Dado 15:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

While ICTY's findings are mostly well researched and proven, the fact remains that it is used for political purposes (e.g. delaying Croatia's EU ascendency talks) and that it refuses to even investigate alleged war crimes committed by foreign powers (e.g. NATO). Even if we all agree here that ICTY is a 100% credible source, there are millions (probably the majority) of people in countries that it directly applies to (Serbia, BH and Croatia) who would disagree with us. Ergo, ICTY is not an undisputed source and it must be treated in the same way, i.e. quoted and attributed (but not necessarily equally prominent) as other sources.
Naming conventions tell us to use the most common name for things, persons and events. For the mass murder in Srebrenica, it's "Srebrenica massacre", not "Srebrenica genocide". "Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide" is a correct sentence.
"Bosnian genocide" is used by some people to mean what this article assumes that it does, so the name itself could be justified, but I still think that it would work better and cause less edit warring in a wider article.
The article as it is now reads as advocacy, not an encyclopedia article. Dado, I understand that you believe that everything it says is correct, and I also have no reason to doubt the accuracy of presented facts. But the way it is written now, a reader can tell that it was written by somebody who has chosen a side in the Bosnian war. Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with chosing sides in real life, it's just not encyclopedic. Zocky 16:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Well I don’t think it is scientific either.

Regardless of what I personally think and which side I take; hypothetically, on one hand you have a university with an immense body of knowledge, expertise and invested time into proving a theory. On the other hand you have a local coffee shop spewing out legends and conspiracy theories that are used to entertain the masses and keep them blind. Which one would you use to create an encyclopedia?

I am willing to state that both exist but there is no doubt in my mind which one is more credible. Otherwise Wikipedia will become just a conglomeration of fancier forum type discussions without a clear layering of facts and without a clear hierarchy of relevance. If we are here to write down coffee house fairy tales than I don’t want to have any part in it as it adds 0 qualities to Wikipedia and as I can do that on any other forum on the internet. Also I am not willing to hide and obscure facts in a different article just so that some people may feel cozier, while there is a clear precedent (Rwandan Genocide) article to follow.

I will not be so naïve to deny that politics have their hand in everything but claiming the exact level of their involvement in this is highly subjective. As an example, how do you explain a plea bargain where one of the convicts (I think it was Nikolic case but I may be wrong) gets 5 years in prison for killing 70 people.

So can we agree that this article or information provided therein is:

Factually correct
Relevant to be called in its given name
That Srebrenica Massacre article should retain its original name but only if there is a Bosnian Genocide article to put it in a larger context as in the case of Rwandan Genocide article
That it should include information on both completed genocide cases and the cases that may potentially change the nature and the scope of its meaning.

If these principles are acceptable than we can move to fine tune the article.--Dado 18:14, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe that all of it is correct, but I don't know, as there are no references to sources where I could check.
I still think that this information, if presented out of context of crimes on other sides will be an endless edit war battlefield, so I would prefer to merge it elsewhere, but I agree that the current name is relevant and if other people think that it's good where it is, I have no problem with that.
Srebrenica Massacre article should be called that regardless of where we put this. It's a separate issue.
I'm not sure whether it should include all the cases that may (or may not, that's what "may" means) "change the nature and the scope of its meaning". How do we establish that?

These are some of the problems I have with the article as it is now written:

It treats ICTY as the word of god. Even if we accept ICTY as a 100% reliable source, we can't report its findings like we report easily observable natural phenomena.
The purported number of people killed in the genocide (100,000-250,000) is probably larger than the total number of dead in the war, including military and civilian casualties on all sides.
Quotes by Karadžić and especially Rašković are too prominent in the article, presented out of context, and unreferenced.
The data in the breakdown is undated, unreferenced and not all of it looks necessarily relevant - cases of several men killed in a town can arguably be attributed to military or personal matters.

Zocky 20:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Let's start with some information that we currently have regarding the data in the breakdown which is combined Schedule A and Schedule B lists of Killings not Associated with Detention Facilities and Killings Associated with Detention Facilities from the Milosevic trial Indictment [1]. You can also find dates on those schedules but I think that it may be just too much information. It may be usefull to put the date of the Indictment which is April 21, 2004. I would definatelly put the above link in the article for more information including also:

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mla-ai021010e.htm

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ai000428e.htm

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ai040421-e.htm

I would gladly consider other sources if you can provide links.

I do agree with some of your concerns and I will think about the organization of the article further as there may be an ambiguity between what is a judgment and what is an indictment and what may and what may not "change the nature and the scope of its meaning".

Around 105,000 people killed is a current estimate but there are two ways to calculate the number of victims (which I am not going to get into now). The larger question is if all 105,000 can be considered as genocide in this article and the answer at this point is probably not. --Dado 21:58, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Good Day,

I am curious to know why there is only reportings on Non-Serb murders? Since this is about the "bosnian" genocide; I Demand that you include Croat and Serb murders!!! The NPOV is lost in this article completely. How can you call it the Bosnian genocide if it is only targeted against Bosniaks? Call it the Bosniak Genocide!

I would like to find about the other deaths of Croats and Serbs in the "bosnian" genocide. Bosnia doesn't just include Bosniaks you know? It is a rainbow of different people. This article is biased as it does not acknowledge the Genocide of Croats and Serbs (Serbs in particular) in the "bosnian" genocide!!! I suggest you delete the article in it's entirety and start over with an introduction similar to this (watch for the NPOV :P)

The Bosnian Genocide took place during the 1990's and involved genocidal attacks and beliefs from the Bosniak, Croat, and Serb parties. The evidence leading to the proof of this genocide can be found below.

The Genocide was an extension of the Yugoslavian Genocide (1941-45)...

I bid you all a farewell...

Auf Wiedersehen,

-Gustav-

We've been over this. Other than to say that this person should read the article carefully before jumping to conclusions I could say that article may need to reinforce what the genocide is and differentiate it from other victims of war. It also reinforces the notion that there should be an article about victims of Bosnian War on all sides.--Dado 00:42, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Huh... We are at the middle of the talk. I think that this page should be renamed into War crimes during the War in Bosnia or something like that because there were only one sanctionied act of genocide (Srebrenica Massacre) and a lot of war crimes on all sides. However, we are at the beginning of the road. And we would talk about it for a months (maybe years). You (Gustav) are welcome to join our conversation. --Millosh 00:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dado, what do you think about naming article as Genocide acts during the War in Bosnia? --Millosh 00:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it sounds silly. It is just a fancier elaboration of the same title. We are not trying to design an article here (including the name). Call it what it is. Just as a thought to give you some insight to the commonality of the name.

Bosnian Genocide

Bosnia Genocide

The name should not be disputed but the definition may. I do think that there should be a separate article perhaps as you named it above (War crimes during the War in Bosnia) or Victims of the Bosnian War but such article should differentiated between killings, war crimes and the genocide.--Dado 18:22, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Millosh name is more descriptive. Bosnian Genocide is term ICTY don't have so Wikipedia should not have either. --Oldadamml 15:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Indictment is not the judgment

Indictment is not the judgment, so I think data from Milosevic trial are irrelevant. --Oldadamml 07:21, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The list of locations and the number of Muslims killed refers to a specific event: Bosnian Genocide.

The list of locations and the number of Muslims killed is a list of massacres. Does Bosnian Genocide correctly label "Bosnian List of Massacres specifically aimed at Muslims"?

[edit] Mediation or arbitration

In this case we need some of that. Bosniak users still work on the article even it is disputed. And it is seems that there is no solution without mediation or arbitration. --Millosh 20:31, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to rules described on the page Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, I am asking other parties to agree about asking mediation. --Millosh 20:46, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't really see the need. There's no rule that says articles shouldn't be worked on while they're disputed - indeed, it's desired, if it helps improve them. Zocky 22:27, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The existance of article is disputed and there is no any kind of intention from Dado and Asim to talk about that. (Instead of that, they are working on disputed content.) So, at least we need mediation here. However, I prefer arbitration because arbitration can bring some results even if someone doesn't want to talk. --Millosh 11:23, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If it's the existance of the artice that's the problem, then it can be put on VfD and potentially deleted. However, the term seems to have some use, so an article at this name could be OK. I'm still not sure about the definition, though. Zocky 11:31, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please suggest and alternate definition. --Dado 17:12, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what this article is supposed to be about.

Is it about genocidal acts during the war in Bosnia, as the name suggests? Then it should include acts from all sides against all sides for which some credible or politically important source claims they were genocidal, and ICTY should be just a part of it. Controversial and untrue claims by important sources should be described as such, not omitted.
Is it about something else? Then it should clearly say that the article is about whatever it is, not that the term means that. Zocky 17:31, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hm. OK. It seems that I don't understand your terms. I am out of this discussion from now. --Millosh 18:29, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To my knowledge there were indictments that also included genocide of Croats in region of Bosanska Krajina. I am not aware of any indictments of killing of Serb population as genocide (but I could be wrong). Or we can simply call it the killing of Bosnian nationals (without specifying the ethnicities).

I think we should be careful not to enter a gray zone here if we decide to introduce all war crimes as genocide. We will have edit wars from all sides speculating on a definition and which war crimes should be considered a genocide.

So far ICTY had provided the most extensive reasearch to where genocide occured in Bosnia. I think their work should be used as a basis but other credible sources should be introduced as you described them. I do agree that controversial and untrue claims by important sources should be described as such, not omitted.

Let me remind that the genocide is not a single event but a series of systematic and planned actions that are designed to bring a destruction of a certain group or groups. Please see Eight Stages of genocide for more info. This also include a denial as one of the stages of the genocide.

Data that is currently used is from ICTY. I would ask that you bring to light other sources as I will look for them as well. --Dado 18:55, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Please don't change these parts of the article while discussing the dispute. I am attempting to avoid a revert war which sparked again yesterday. Here is a list of tips on working toward agreement.--AI 01:08, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed contents

The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was an organized murder of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the Bosnian War between 1992 and 1995, where authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army targeted for extinction a wide group of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks). The Bosnian Genocide has been proven...

1. Name of the article is something not reffered in ICTY. 2. ICTY have cases against all three sides in the war So definition in the first two sentences is disputed. --Oldadamml 10:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The name is not used by ICTY but it is used by HRW and other Human Rights organizations who provide information and material to ICTY, as well as by respectable public outlets. The definition is what ICTY has provided in terms of genocide in Bosnia (Srebrenica). Perhaps we can rephrase it to say.

The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was an organized murder of Bosnians, predominantly Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the war between 1992 and 1995 by authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army.

Also this sentance should be added somewhere:

This article is about genocide that took place during the Bosnian War from 1992-1995 while there were other cases of genocide in the same region during the WWII covered in other articles.--Dado 15:00, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, ICTY does have cases on all three sides but they are not the same. On one hand you have indictments for war crimes while on the other is about the genocide. The whole point of the article is to differentiate the two (or three)--Dado 15:09, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Recent Developments ... There are several genocide trials and indictments currently at the ICTY including Milosevic trial and Karadzic and Mladic indictments for genocide. Evidence have been presented which have prove...

Trials and indictments is better name for this part. Evidence have not been presented, some have been presented but some might be presented (see the shedule). Also, AFAIK evidence have also meaning of testimony in English language so itself it don't prove anything. The court judgement might or not prove something. --Oldadamml 10:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It makes more sense to me to call it Recent Developments especially since the same is used at Srebrenica Massacre article. I think the whole point is to show that these cases are taking place as we present this article and may change the scope of the definition. The evidence that is introduced in these cases were proven. Bodies have been found, identified, cause of death and executioners determined. The only question remains is if the persons indicted for these crimes will bear the responsibility for the executioners.--Dado 15:00, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again, these "evidence" are not proven. Some of the witness might be perjure witness. Some of the photos might be fake. Look in the http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evidence Law: The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law. So nothing in shedule is not fact. So this should be removed. --Oldadamml 09:34, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with oldadamm that even though some thing have been entered as evidence, they have not been proven in court. Such information should be take taken off until proven, or a qualifier should be added to the comment stating that it has not been proven but only presented as evidence.--AI 02:39, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not entered as evidence, it is in shedule. Some might be presented, some not. --Oldadamml 08:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Background paragraph

Are these quotation from Prosecutor vs. Krstic? I don't see them there so why should this be write here? --Oldadamml 10:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The quotes were not from ICTY proceedings as far as I understand and they will need to be placed in the context but I think they are usefull given the definition of genocide.--Dado 15:00, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why these quotes should be censored. They are relevant.--AI 03:28, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Breakdown of confirmed killings by city or region paragraph

This is not comfirmed by ICTY. It is part of trial which might or might not be proven. --Oldadamml 10:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

These have been confirmed as killings as otherwise they would not be addmissible in the court. See my comments above--Dado 15:00, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--Oldadamml 09:34, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Am I lying?

i have listened to talks and seen evidence that strongly sugests that many of the events in this so called war never hapened. ex; what started it all, the two little musslum kids who said that the serbs pushed their brother into the river, they later admited they had lied but by then it was to late and emense anti-serb sentiment had already spread. please consider the alternate evidence. French media has done a good job of findig the truth, why can't the rest of us? - User:198.166.251.116 16:11, 6 Jun 2005

You are not correct. Also please sign your postings. Don't give us propaganda, if you want to edit the article, then join in.--AI 02:25, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "disclaimer"

The statement "Some of the information presented here has not been established as fact. Currently the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia is ongoing." cannot be applied to the entire article but maybe to some parts that are disputed. Can anyone point to portion of the article that needs this disclaimer. Also is there anyone here to discuss the issues above. Otherwise I will make suggested correction and remove POV tag from this article. --Dado 00:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia's accuracy dispute policy (WP:AD) should be followed. I would suggest taking that disclaimer off (Some of the information presented here has not been established as fact. Currently the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia is ongoing.) Instead, use the dubious tag at each disputed statement and disputed tag at each disputed paragraph. Don't remove the POV tag until all disputes have been negotiated (Wikipedia:Negotiation). Try to find objective criteria. Just my suggestion.--AI 03:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the disclaimer as it just did not serve any purpose. As the article appeared before there were more items pasted denouncing the entire article that the actual issues than need to be resolved. I have moved dubious statement to specific sentances that are problematic. If we are going to use that system I would ask anyone if they have objections to paste the dubious tag on a specific sentance or a portion of the text. I have also rephrased the definition as stated above. I think there are still some issues to be resolved here so anyone's input will be welcomed. Thanks --Dado 13:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, the disclaimer was POV and a little dishonest, of course some will dispute the removal of the disclaimer. However the dubious tag is a disclaimer on it's own. No one should disagree with the use of the dubious tag, if they do, then refer then to Wikipedia policy (WP:AD).--AI 19:02, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have added a sentance to "Recent developments" section that I find important to consider and I hope you will agree. Question: If we already have a "dubious" tag at the portion of the article that is disputed i.e. "Killings admitted as evidence at ICTY" does the entire article need to start with the POV tag at the top. I would think that if we resolved a good chunk of disputes at this article that POV tag should be removed and other disputes should be resolved on a case by case basis. Any thoughts? --Dado 03:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed contents

Any increase in numbers will only occur after those and other cases (such as the Siege of Sarajevo in which an estimated 12,000 were killed) are ruled to be genocide.

This increase in number MIGHT occur after court process, not will. Also "ruled to be genocide" should be explained (provide links). --Oldadamml 08:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So alternate should read: Any increase in numbers may occur after those and other cases (such as the Siege of Sarajevo in which an estimated 12,000 were killed) are ruled to be genocide. --Dado 2 July 2005 15:50 (UTC)

Can we put the Siege of Sarajevo in which an estimated 12,000 were killed elsewhere in the article where such a comment is more relevant. They way it is presented now it breaks up a sentence which is confusing. --AI 3 July 2005 01:12 (UTC)

No, you cannot put estimates until the finish of court process. --Oldadamml 06:20, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed 23. jun 2005

Above genocide indictments also include incidents where a significant number of Bosnian Croats were also killed particulary in Bosanska Krajina teritories which were under control of Army of Republika Srpska. The shedule in the indictments is below, so this seems incorrect to me. --Oldadamml 07:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes I know the schedule is bellow but the point is emphasize that also killing of Bosnian Croats are part of the genocide indictments as a clarification of the main definition of the article. ...an organized killing of Bosnians, predominantly Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the war between 1992 and 1995... It serves to say who are other Bosnians included in genocide indictment proceedings.--Dado 05:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But in your sentence it seems that it DID happend. It didn't happend until the court make the judgment. --Oldadamml 29 June 2005 13:54 (UTC)

The killings DID happen. Court judgement will not change that (you cannot bring back the dead). Court judgement will only serve to punish those responsible (whoever that may be)--Dado 2 July 2005 15:44 (UTC)

For each possible killing courte prosecutor invite the witness, show the photos, etc. He present the evidence. I will remind you that movie about Srebrenica's wictims were presented on the judgment of Slobodan Milosevic recently to show that the killings DID happend. I sometimes watch the Slobodan Milosevic judgment. For each other possible violation of the law the try to prove it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3528587.stm http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/020228IT.htm--Oldadamml 7 July 2005 12:46 (UTC)

[edit] Genocide did happen

@all:Will you change your attitude if I show you the proves that there were etnic cleansing against Serbs in Bosnia? Will you rewrite the article then? Would you like me to write down the names of all 3287 Serbian civilians brutally killed by Naser Oric troops from 1992 to 1995? Would you like me to write about the way they died? Would you like me to show you pictures of mutilated bodies? Will you believe then? Would you like to see Muslim extremists destroying Serbian churches and monasteries? Do you even have an idea how many refuges from Bosnia we have in here Serbia today? Do you know how many Serbs lived in Bosnia and Crotia before the war and how many of them are there nowadays? Theodosias 19:05, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] US resolution removed

I removed US resolution because it is not officialy UN document. Previous discussion on talk pages for Srebrenica_massacre and here gave the conclusion that ONLY ICTY judgments are relevant for the recent war issues in the former Yugoslavia. --Oldadamml 06:23, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the same is noted on Srebrenica article in Recent developments section. Although I don't care much about it, it is an official US document. Also we have used HRW and few other reputable institutions here as well.--Dado 17:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

So it will be returned, as it is defined as a US resolution.Emir Arven 17:18, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biljana Plavsic pleaded guilty to war crimes

Biljana Plavsic CNN

In an interview she gave later, she admitted that she lied when she pleaded guilty. Nikola 15:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I cannot find in the link you provided that she admitted that she lied when she pleaded guilty. Do you have a source that confirms this. --Dado 22:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

When have you asked for a source and I didn't have one? [2], [3]. Nikola 22:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Again I don't see anywhere that she said that she lied before the court. Only in one paragraph the author of the text is interpreting her statement about not creating a contract to accept the guilty plee (which is untrue because she did accept the contract as can be seen from the official judgement). Everything else is pure fluff. I am begining to doubt that she ever said what you are claim she did.--Dado 22:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

??? "says that she decided to admit guilt in front of the Hague tribunal when she realised that it is completely impossible for her to proove her innocence and supply defence witnesses"; "she doesn't deny that crimes were committed by the Serbian side during war in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well. Yet, she claims that she was never involved in war questions"; "at least I don't have to sit there and listen to false witnesses"... Oh, and "I can't understand one man, for whom I know that he is honourable, and that is general Mladic" Nikola 12:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You stated "she admitted that she lied when she pleaded guilty." I don't see anywhere explicitly that she said that she lied. Lieing in from of the court is a serious offense and you better be dead on with your claims. All she said was bunch of inconclusive political fluff that can be interpreted in several different ways and where one cannot see what were the entire circuimstances of her statement. Every plea bargain comes with certain conditions. Everything else is her POV which we can add in the article but I see no point.

About a more serious issue, you are using this discussion to retract attention from your vandalism of the article and edits that don't have any merit. Either productively work towards resovling this or you will be sanctioned. --Dado 17:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

No, she didn't said that she lied, she only said that she isn't guilty. In ICTY, she said that she is guilty. That is quite conclusive.

If you look ten centimeters above, you will notice that you started the discussion. Nikola 07:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

So now you are saying that she did not say she lied. I don't know when and where she stated that she was not guilty after she admitted that she was guilty before the court. Or perhaps this is what you are refering to.

"kaže da je odlučila da prizna krivicu pred Haškim tribunalom kada je shvatila da je potpuno nemoguće da dokaže svoju nevinost i da obezbedi svedoke odbrane, jer niko nije želeo da svedoči."

She realized that it was "immposible to prove her innocence and find witnesses for her defense because no one wanted to testify" .

Hm. What could that mean? Perhaps that she is guilty and no one would want to lie before the court so save her? Well one is presumed innocent until proven guilty and she was proven guilty. And I did not start this discussion nor have I began attacking this article for no reason as you are doing --Dado 21:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

So now you are trolling. She did said that she lied, just not with that exact words. In her plea she said that she is guilty, later she said that she is innocent. That's all that matters.

Oh, and she wasn't proven guilty. She plea bargained. And, you did start this discussion. I answered to an anon, then you asked me. Nikola 20:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Factual accuracy

I have just now noticed this article. Like many other users have said on the talk page, I find even the title not neutral and factually inaccurate, and what little contents there is even more. I see that the article was tagged as POV, which was of course removed without any attempt of discussion. So, I will return the tag, adding factual accuracy tag as well. Doubtless it will be reverted again, well, so be it. Nikola 15:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

What is disputed here other than the statement by Plavsic, which frankly, I don't care much about.--Dado 15:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Umm, pretty much everything?

The title of the article.
- The name (title) is commonly used: [4], [5] --Dado 03:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  - Use by a few de facto pressure groups does not mean "commonly used". In addition, the groups are using the term wrongly, even if sincere. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    - Well let's see what others think about Human Rights Watch and United Human Rights. You apparently have no respect for them. --Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
      - I do. However, these groups are abused by politicians in their home countries. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        Same as you are --Dado 05:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        I don't understand this. Nikola 11:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        Again I will defer this question to other users. --Dado 17:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was an organized killing of Bosnians, predominantly Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) during the war between 1992 and 1995 by authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army. - no such thing happened.
- Your POV and highly offensive denial. Parallels claiming that Holocaust did not happen. --Dado 03:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  - No it doesn't. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    - Good comeback --Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
      - Oh, and Godwin's Law. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The Bosnian Genocide has been proven at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) through the court case entitled Prosecutor vs Krstic (see Srebrenica Massacre). - ICTY has no credibility. Even if it would have some, this is still not true.
- See [6] Krsic case.--Dado 03:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  - ICTY still has no credibility, and the "judgement" refers only to Srebrenica. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    - If you have a problem with ICTY bring it up on that article. It is generally aceptable to the majority of world countries. Unless the Wikipedia is a settlement of radical fringe pushing highly offensive and illegal (per international law) agenda than it should be acceptable here as well.--Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
      - Majority of world countries are completely outside of ICTY's field and it does not relate to them in any way. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        ICTY was established by the UN resolution passed before the 190 nations. It is legal. End of discussion. Its neutrality is controlled by the balance of state government's and NGO recomendations, and in particular by the CICC (Coalition for the International Criminal Court) a coalition of over 2000 world wide NGO's --Dado 05:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        No. ICTY was established by a resolution of the UN Security Council, which is not authorised to establish international courts. It is illegal. It is also illegitimate because majority (or at least, a significant minority) of people under its supposed jurisdiction doesn't consider it legitimate. CICC is apparently doing a very poor job, as there are many cases where the court has shown that it is not impartial. Nikola 11:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        Security council had the mandate to found the ICTY. It is legal. --Dado 17:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The government of Republika Srpska found 7,779 missing people in Srebrenica. - not true.
- I don't have a link on hand but I am sure one can be presented --Dado 03:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  - Don't bother. The government was forced to issue a statement in which it claimed to have found 7,779 missing people. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    - So you admit that they made a statement (under preasure which we can pointed out)--Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
      - They have, there's nothing to admit about it. But they did not find 7779 missing people, as the article claims. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        First you were claiming that they did not found 7,779 missing people in Srebrenica. Than you admited that they issued a statement in which they did find this number. Now again you are claiming that they did not find it again. Could you be more clear. Suggest the alternate sentance. --Dado 05:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        The government did not issue a statement; the government was forced to issue a statement.
        
        The statement said that they find this number (or maybe it doesn't, but I trust you that it does).
        
        The statement was false; they did not find this number.
        
        I suggest that the article is deleted entirely. Nikola 11:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
        
        I am OK with deleting the section "The government of Republika Srpska found 7,779 missing people in Srebrenica". --Dado 17:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

That from the introduction only. Nikola 20:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Nikola, if you have specific problems with the article, offer a solution as well. You may question ICTY's credibility, but that has nothing to do with this article. Also, if you have more correct sources on Srebrenica, do provide them. Organized killings, tortures, etc. have of course occured, just like the Holocaust did, and can be sourced by first-hand accounts reported by media as well as testemonies in the Haag. --dcabrilo 21:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I propose that the article is deleted, and until it is done, that there is factual accuracy disputed tag at the top, so that unaware readers don't get impression that it makes some sense.

To unaware users beware of these claims who have no basis in reality and are pure denial of what has been proven as legal truth at ICTY. If you care to learn more see Srebrenica massacre for start.

To unaware users ICTY is illegal, illegitimate, and not impartial. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Your POV. Bring it up on ICTY page--Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

My, and POV of many other people. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

So much about solutions. And sorry, but if the article, in its second sentence says that "The Bosnian Genocide has been proven at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY)", then ICTY's credibility has a lot to do with the article. I don't understand what do you refer to by "sources on Srebrenica". Yes, organised killings, torture, etc. have of course occured, but a genocide organised by the authorities of Republika Srpska simply did not happen. Nikola 20:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

In March 1995, Radovan Karadžić, President of Republika Srpska (“RS”), in spite of the international community pressure to end the war and the ongoing efforts to negotiate a peace agreement, issued a directive to the VRS concerning the long-term strategy of the VRS forces in the enclave. The directive, known as “Directive 7”, specified that the VRS was to: "Complete the physical separation of Srebrenica from Žepa as soon as possible, preventing even communication between individuals in the two enclaves. By planned and well-thought out combat operations, create an unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica."--Dado 03:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Your introduction is patently false. A few Western countries are not international community. Further, those countries were those which pushed for start of the war in the first place. What they marketed as efforts to end the war and negotiate a peace agreement were efforts to win the war in their favor.

Karadzic apparently wanted to pressure population of Srebrenica so that they would stop the raids on surrounding Serbian willages. Nikola 08:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The whole paragraph was taken from, I think, Krstic judgement. It is not my introducion. Speaking of raids:

Diego Enrique Arria (Venezuela's permanent representative to the UN during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina) , told the Trial Chamber in the Milosevic case that the United Nations' failure to take decisive action against ethnic cleansing by Bosnian Serbs produced a climate of impunity that permitted slow motion genocide against the Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica from 1993 to its culmination in 1995. More at [7] There was a continuity of premeditated doctrine in Srebrenica that only culminated in 1995. The directive was in line with the strategic objective which led (and Karadzic was aware of it beforehand) to genocide.--Dado 16:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

What an idiot. He doesn't even stop to think that maybe Muslim massacres of Serbian villages around Srebrenica might caused Serbian retaliation. Nikola 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Nikola, Can you stop using Ad hominems and talk with civility? as this is what is expected from members. Dado, has valid and sound arguments unlike you. --Street Scholar 20:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

That was sarcasm. Of course he knew that, but for some reason forgot to mention it in ICTY. He's not an idiot.

I don't think that Dado has any solid arguments. Nikola 09:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, lets leave that at that. However the comment you made was not very nice and It also seems like you are showing sympathy to the atrocities the Serbs committed. By trying to say well the Bosnians brought this on themselves. And also can you not make generalizing comments such as "...maybe Muslim massacres..." there are 1.6 Million Muslims in the world. And also you wouldn't like it if someone said: "Christian Massacre of Bosnians" rather then saying: "Serb massacre of Bosnians". Just think of your words before you type, thanks. --Street Scholar 12:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate that you are trying to help, but you may want to read Bosnians, Bosniaks and Muslims by nationality first. Zocky 18:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for good-hearted advice. I believed that it is obvious that if Serbian crimes were prompted by Bosnian Muslim crimes, that doesn't make them justified, but only explains them. So, that's why I was mentioning that.

When I said Muslims I meant Bosnian Muslims, I use the term because I don't like term Bosniaks. Nikola 06:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Nikola, I couldn't give a yellow flying money about the fact that you don't like the term; Bosniaks, don't go using generalizations when you're referring to incident which allegedly may have even taken place. --Street Scholar 15:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Scholar, I couldn't give a yellow flying money about the fact that you couldn't give a yellow flying money about the fact that I don't like the term; I wasn't making a generalisation, and if you still think that I am, you should read articles Dado recommended (especially Muslims by nationality to find out why. Nikola 07:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Last changes are an improvement, but I have to note that now the article is internally inconsistent. Introduction states that "Bosnian Genocide was an organized killing of Bosnians during the war between 1992 and 1995", then the following sentence says that "Bosnian Genocide is a term used by some academic and human rights institutions when referring to the case of genocide that took place in Srebrenica". Nikola 09:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

ICTY declared Srebrenica massacre as an act of genocide. Academic and Human rights groups refer to this act of genocide as a Bosnian genocide. Hence the definition of Srebrenica massacre is the same as definition of Bosnian genocide. If A=B and B=C, than A=C as well, where A = Srebrenica massacre, B = act of genocide and C = Bosnian genocide. The section is perfectly balanced. --Dado 22:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Except that it does not exist. The article does not say what you have just wrote. Nikola 05:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does--Dado 06:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't, and anyone who can read can see it. Nikola 07:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you implying that I can't read? --Dado 04:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

No. I am certain that you know perfectly that the article does not say that. Nikola 07:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Trying to specific as possible since you already removed the more generic NPOV I had previously placed, and I think if you read the WP:WEASEL it very good examples of why this article is not NPOV, I'm attempting to highlight this to improve quality of this article. --Lowg 20:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Yet you are still to note what is specifically wrong with current verision of this article. Repeatedly blanketing entire or a section of an article with the POV tag without explaination can be considered vandalism.--Dado 21:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

This section in particular is obviously not NPOV, maybe we can start here, then I will point out other NPOV issues in article.

"Bosnian side claims that Srebrenica..." "Bosnians point out " "Bosnian side further claims "

"Many Serb groups on the other hand espoused" "Some others,... have engaged in pointing out" "Some groups have manipulated the number of victims"

Your edit summary says "Please read POV section too. I was involved in that discussion and the article is a result of it. State which words or phrases are biased)". If you made all these statements, they should be attributed to you, instead of attributed them to anonymous sources. They give the force of authority to a statement without leting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed. Please read WP:WEASEL for more details. --Lowg 22:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You must live under a rock to object these items but fine. I have added sources to claims that you consider problematic.--Dado 23:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

The link that was added shows data that is more than a year old. Reasearch and Documentation Center in Sarajevo recently (December 2005) presented a breakdown of casulties in the Bosnian War. I have added a table to an article Bosnian War that shows this.

I have nothing against adding the section Criticism or maybe Controversy or Denial, revisionism and scepticism such as is on Srebrenica massacre but such that will describe the sentiments and statements by the other side and not include personal thoughts and analyses such as

one cannot claim that the killing of Bosniaks by Serbs was genocide without also claiming that the killing of Serbs by Bosniaks was also genocide, which no one has ever claimed.

This has no place on Wikipedia (see WP:NOT). I will revert the article for now until the sensible section could be written --Dado 03:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

If you agree that there should be criticism, but don't think that criticism is valid, you should edit the criticism, not remove it. Nikola 07:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Denial of genocide is not the same as criticism without a serious sentence. --Emir Arven 11:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the study was conducted a year ago couldn't possibly be less relevent. It was carried out by the ICTY, and it is still the only study used in the ICTY court, and if it's good enough for them it is good enough for Wikipedia. It is also the most reliable breakdown of casualties we have, as the study done in December 2005 was done by a Bosnian Muslim so it is more likely to be biased than the one done by the ICTY.

No one is saying that is less relevant but you conclusion and analysis is irelevant. I have added a section similar to one Srebrenica massacre. I would ask you one more time to cool off. --Dado 00:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I also disagree on the name of this article, for one thing; if it's called Bosnian Genocide than besides the Srebrenica Massacre you should include Kravica Massacre (over 1000 Serbs were slaughtered in relative proximity of Srebrenica by Bosniaks), and murders of Croats as well. Next thing: Genocide does not exist unless it's ackgnowledged by the world; as far as I know there are still more opponents to this theory than there are suppoters, since all 3 sides have had blood on their hands and commited horrifying war crimes, so more appropriate word would be Massacre, as it's beeing used in literature. The word genocide is very ungratefull to use in the Balkans since there have been many during history, so ackgnowledgement of only one would be extremely unfair to the others (take Jasenovac genocide as an example, where hundreds of thousands of Serbs have perished during WWII) and would lead to chain reaction, which would be very risky in the Balkans that has lately commited itself to European integrations. It could also apply to at least 5,000 Serbs that are currently missing in Kosovo and thousands more in former yugoslav republics....the proof for this claim would probably be the enormous pressure that has been put on B&H government by international community to drop charges (for genocide) against Serbia and Montenegro.

[edit] Dispute and vandalism

Let me clarify something here. Just because there is 63K of opinions on this discussion page it does not grant the general clearance to anyone to randomly dispute this article without justifying the dispute with specific valid and credible issues. Most of the issues presented here were either pure garbage and personal grievences with the facts or they were already corrected in the article.

On top of that the anonimous user has recently entered this article and has violated 3RR and was banned for 8 hours only to be back as a sock puppet under different IP. I refuse to waste my time and engage in a discussion with the user that 1. Apparently does not understand how the Wikipedia works or 2. know's is well enough to pose as sock puppet to avoid the ban on his aggressive behaviour on this article. 3. has apparently no understanding of the issue and 4. Has probably not even read the article.

If anyone else is open for a constructive, rational discussion on elements that may be disputed I am open for it--Dado 19:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

As an admin unrelated to the editing of this article, I have semi-protected this page due to the massive reverts and semi-vandal attacks going on since early January. Only registered usersa may now edit this page. If vandalism continues under registered names, please report as needed. -Husnock 19:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I dispute this article, not its content, but its purpose for existence. By the article's own admission, the only case of genocide in Bosnia was the Srebrenica massacre. Since we already have an article about the Srebrenica massacre, why do we need this article? Surely all the information in here is already in the Srebrenica massacre article (or can be added if it isn't)? Edrigu 21:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The article is relevant for many reasons some of which have been explained on this discussion page back 6 months ago so I would suggest you to read it thoroughly. The simplest way to explain it, the article is based on a similar grounds as the Rwandan Genocide article. Furthermore the term Bosnian Genocide is in regular use and the article explains that and provides relevant sources.

It's true that only case of genocide proven so far is Srebrenica massacre. However there are at least 3 other court cases ongoing that are based on indictments for genocide on the other regions of Bosnia and Herzegovina (in particular Bosanska Krajina). All of that is quite clearly spelled out on the article.--Dado 22:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

That comparisson doesn't make sense at all. The Rwandan Genocide refers to a single, continuous act which took place over only a few days. On the other hand, it's not even clear what the Bosnian Genocide refers to. If it refers to only the Srebrenica massacre, then it should be merged with the article about the latter, since it is against Wikipedia policy to have multiple articles about the same thing. If it refers to the entire Bosnian war, then you would have to prove that the entire war was one big genocide, which not even the ICTY has claimed. Edrigu 15:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If you dispute the article's existance then take it to the AfD and see if it passes. I think the only reason you don't is because you know the nomination would go up in flames. Bosnian Genocide is a widely-used and accepted term for exactly what this article describes. Just because some people wish it didn't exist doesn't mean it shouldn't be on wikipedia. Asim Led 00:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I just might do that one of these days when I have more time. Edrigu 15:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the following a couple of days ago, but did not post it for some unexplained reason. Looks like Edrigu beat me to it in the meantime. But anyway, here goes. I see nothing in this text that required a separate article and couldn't have been placed in the alredy existing Srebrenica Massacre article. For one, its non-Srebrenica content is three-lines long and it's still called BOSNIAN genocide. Srebrenica alone (a town in Eastern Bosnia that covers oh-I-don't-know 1.5% of its territory) is hardly entire Bosnia. In an attempt to "pad the stats" article then uses a lot of 'may had been', 'statistcs still may change' weasel stuff in the Recent Developments section which as I said is the only non-Srebrenica part of the article. User:Zvonko

Back to present day. As for the responses. What Dado calls "regular use" is a stretch to say the least. And what Asim referred to as "widely-used and accepted term" is a wild exaggeration. The article talks about “some academics” (doesn’t mention which ones – grounds for weasel wording) and "some human rights organizations" (again without any references). But even if these were to be produced (hopefully, you'll cite the basis for such a statement), "some academics and some human rights organizations" is hardly "widely-used, accepted term" and "regular use".User:Zvonko

This is just a sample that is also noted on the article. I can find more where that came from. What's the problem? --Dado 03:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

And by the way Google search yields 9090 hits if you need more. 'nuff said --Dado 03:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

All of these links talk about what went on in Srebrenica, and mention the term 'Bosnian' as a geographical adjective in an effort of making the story more accessible and readily comprehended because they're aware 'Srebrenica' by itself means nothing to most of their readership. It's the same as writing "Croatian skier wins Schladming slalom", or "Serbian b-baller drops in 25points" instead of "Ivica Kostelic wins....." or "Nenad Krstic drops...." knowing these two names ring no bells for majority of the readers around the world.

It would be pretty pointless to write two articles on Wikipedia named "Nenad Krstic" and "Serbian basketball player", both about Nenad Krstic, using the above as the basis. Having two articles about the same thing is pointless. This article offers nothing that Srebrenica massacre didn't already. Zvonko

Actually, Google returns 736 hits when Wikipedia is excluded[8]. Add to that that some of them are not mention of the article's supposed subject, but of "a Bosnian genocide" (such as the above article from Taipei Times) and the number is even smaller. The term is in some use, but it doesn't mean what this article says it does. Nikola 08:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Searching just for "Bosnian genocide" limits the matter, although it shows the exact term this article takes is still pretty commonly used (the Taipei Times article is an exception rather than the rule). Searching for Bosnia and Genocide as well as Bosnian and Genocide without wikipedia links comes up with somewhere around 1,600,000 hits. Of these, only 168,000 mention Srebrenica. Just because the exact term "Bosnian genocide" isn't as commonly used says little more than that such a recent historical event does not have an established term in textbooks. If you searched the exact titles of current event articles from the front page you wouldn't get nearly as many results as just generally searching for the event in question. This is a similar situation here. Despite how the facts might be twisted around by Smolenski, it is hardly a wild assertion that a genocide occured in Bosnia. For an interesting comparison, the search for Bosnia Genocide above actually had more links than Armenia genocide. Asim Led 12:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see what makes this a separate article from Srebrenica Genocide. Maybe a request for comment is what we need? Edrigu 15:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd say that Taipei Times is rule rather than exception. And your proposed search takes us even further away - "Bosnia genocide suspect arrested", "Bosnia Genocide Resources", "General Guilty of Bosnia Genocide". Neither of these refers to entire Bosnia. Nikola 07:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Because the articles on the Bosnian genocide and the Srebrenica massacre are not the same thing, just like the article on the Holocaust and Auschwitz are not the same thing. The Srebrenica massacre is the single most famous and significant event in the Bosnian genocide, but not the only one. Asim Led 19:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

But it IS the only one, the article itself admits that! Edrigu 02:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. The article admits that as of early 2006 its the only one recognised as such by an international court, but that there are numerous other cases involving charges of genocide with pending decisions. Asim Led 03:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

There could be a million charges of genocide, that's irrelevent because only Srebrenica is recognized. Besides, even if there were more cases of genocide, there would still be no need for this article because each of those cases would have its own article. Edrigu 23:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

It is quite relevant that the same institution that defined the Srebrenica massacre as the act of genocide is conducting several other trials including genocide in other regions of Bosnia that share the same established doctrine that Srebrenica event had. It is not suprising that many consider this as a commonality that is defined in terms of a Bosnian genocide or that the Srebrenica is only an example of what has happened elsewhere in Bosnia.

Also here is an excerb from Milosevic indictment:

COUNTS 1 and 2 GENOCIDE OR COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE

From on or about 1 March 1992 until 31 December 1995, Slobodan MILOSEVIC, acting alone or in concert with other members of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation and execution of the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Bosnian Muslim national, ethnical, racial or religious groups, as such, in territories within Bosnia and Herzegovina, including: Bijeljina; Bosanski Novi; Brcko; Kljuc; Kotor Varos; Prijedor; Sanski Most and Srebrenica. The destruction of these groups was effected by:

The widespread killing of thousands of Bosnian Muslims during and after the take-over of territories within Bosnia and Herzegovina, including those listed above, as specified in Schedule A to this indictment. In many of the territories, educated and leading members of these groups were specifically targeted for execution, often in accordance with pre-prepared lists. After the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995, almost all captured Bosnian Muslim men and boys, altogether several thousands, were executed at the places where they had been captured or at sites to which they had been transported for execution. etc.. etc..

Others indictments are relatively similar. Now it stands that this trial is still ongoing but the article that we have here is very carefull not to make presuptions of guilt until the trial is finished.

Your suggestion that each incident will have its article is probably true but it is also clear that this article binds them together in what is acceptable and relatively widely used term.--Dado 00:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

There are entire books written on the subject, hundreds of thousands of mentions on the internet, and a clear presence in the relative political arenas. That the article shouldn't exist because only one incident has been labeled as such by an international court completely misses the point: the event is so recent that the international court in question hasn't had time to rule on all charges. And asserting that the article shouldn't exist even if there were multiple acts of genocide recognised by an international court is ridiculous, considering the wide variety of umbrella articles on wikipedia for a series of sub-articles with far less in common. There are many other holes in your arguement but, in short, I disagree; and I also feel that if this article was put up for deletion that many others would disagree as well. Asim Led 00:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Before you two get carried away, I will remind you that legality, legitimacy and impartiality of ICTY are seriously disputed. Bottom line: the article says that

If I hear this bullshit about ICTY being illegal one more time.... ICTY is perfectly legal and credible. Serbs raise this point as a matter of politics but ICTY has been founded under legal mandate. To question its legality serves only to propagandists and historical revisionsts.

ICTY is illegal, ICTY is illegal, ICTY is illegal. You heard it three times. Now what? Nikola 17:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was an organized killing of Bosnians, predominantly male Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) during the war between 1992 and 1995 by authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army.

The Bosnian Genocide is a term used by some academic and human rights institutions when referring to the case of genocide that took place in Srebrenica which has been proven at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) through the court case entitled Prosecutor vs Krstić (see Srebrenica Massacre). Thus far the Srebrenica massacre has been the only case which the UN Hague tribunal has officially defined as genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The presentation of evidence implicating the killing of at least 8,000 persons, predominantly Bosniaks has been made. Bosnian-Herzegovina Commission for Missing Persons claims that the number of killings is much greater than has been currently represented at the tribunal.

While actually Bosnian Genocide is a propaganda term used by some media, human rights groups and governments in order to create impression that in Bosnia, organized killing of Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) happened during the war between 1992 and 1995 by authorities of Republika Srpska and its army. In reality, no such thing happened. There were instances of RS army killing Bosniak civilians, but there were also numerous instances of it not killing them when it easily could, and instances of Bosnian Muslim army killing Serb civilians.

The rest of the article is even worse than the introduction: the US resolution presented while not noting hostile politics of USA towards Serbia;

Completelly irrelevant. Ad himinem logical fallacy--Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

? Nikola 17:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

valid strategic objectives presented as background for genocide, while neither of them actually requires it; three statements of which one is retracted,

I think you are refering to a Biljana Plavsic statement which you never provided source where she explicitly reverted this exact statement. In the past you have provided articles that shown conversations with her where an author of the article made personal conclusions about her position.--Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I have, multiple times. What you say is wrong: she explicitly said that she is innocent and accepted the plea bargain because she couldn't prove it. Nikola 17:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

into which you read anything you want, but neither of them actually says what you claim it does; use of terms "Denial" and "revisionism" which implies that this is established fact, which is being denied and revised, while it was denied from the first moment anyone claimed it;

Bosnian Genocide is an established fact at least in the case of Srebrenica--Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No. Even if your version of Srebrenica events would be an established fact, it still would have nothing to do with supposed Bosnian Genocide. Nikola 17:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

and various inaccuracies sprinkled throughout, such as pointers to "this ideology", "prior awareness of the consequences" and so on. Nikola 07:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Asim said "For an interesting comparison, the search for Bosnia Genocide above actually had more links than Armenia genocide."

I'm not sure whether you're using the above as an actual argument or just trying to pad the stats a little, but its fairly weak, nonetheless

Paris Hilton, chick who shops and has her street-walking photos taken for a living, returns 4X more Google hits (26 million) than Marilyn Monroe, one of the defining pop-culture icons of the second half of the 20th century (6 million).

William Hung, half-retarded one-time American Idol contestant returns just about the same number of hits (6.5 million) as Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and Humphrey Bogart all added together (2 + 2 + 2 million) - three of the performers whose careers spanned the entire century.

Eminem returns about the same as John Lennon and Elvis Presley hits added together.

Are we to conclude based on this that they're that much more socially and culturally significant and relevant. Of course not. That just proves recent events and contemporary personae, no matter how insignificant and absurd, get way more attention, especially in cyberspaces, over something that happened 50, 70, or 100 years ago.

Are you seriously comparing Google hits of Paris Hilton, William Hung and Eminem to Bosnian Genocide? --Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you seriously comparing Google hits of Paris Hilton, William Hung and Eminem to Bosnian Genocide?

Huh!?

I'm pointing out the fallacy of him padding thae stats by saying Bosnian Genocide returns more than Armenian Genocide. And also pointing out the fallacy of using the web as a supreme judge of relevance of two events that happened in different eras. And you seem to be pretendng not to notice that. Zvonko 20:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

So weak, in fact, that it’s used throughout Wikipedia. Either way, if you really want to make an issue of it, I could point out that all of the figures you searched for achieved their fame at a time when the internet had attained great world-wide popularity, whereas the Bosnian Genocide occurred well before this period of time. A search for certain contemporary figures reveals a different story. Kurt Cobain, for instance, scores 3.5 million hits compared to Lennon's 18 and Presley's 11. Asim Led 06:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Asim said "Searching for Bosnia and Genocide as well as Bosnian and Genocide without wikipedia links comes up with somewhere around 1,600,000 hits. Of these, only 168,000 mention Srebrenica. "

I randomly opened between 70-100 pages that come back when you give the above criteria minus Srebrenica (two hours of my life I'll never get back, by the way). Not one of them mentioned a specific non-Srebrenica case in connection with genocide. Not a single one. Some cited specific things that happened in Srebrenica without mentioning the town's name, others used "Bosnian" instead of "Srebrenica" for comprehension reasons in a way I described previously, and yet others had "Bosnian" and "genocide" on the same page but in no connection to each other.

Asim finally concluded "Just because the exact term "Bosnian genocide" isn't as commonly used says little more than that such a recent historical event does not have an established term in textbooks. "

Exactely, and here you're prejudicating that it will or that it should have an established term in textbooks. Wikipedia is not to be used for writing history. And its articles definitely aren't supposed to reflect personal psychic predictions or personal opinions/desires about choices of historical terminology.Zvonko

I have provided an excerb from an Milosevic indictment above that talks about the crimes commited in other regions of BiH. if you cared to read.--Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, notice the word "crimes". Last time I checked, crime does not equal genocide.User:Zvonko

No. But a genocide is composed of such crimes as the ones listed above. Asim Led 20:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Asim Led would appreciate it if Zvonko would stop writing in 3rd person seeing as it is getting mildly ridiculous. Asim Led would also like to point out the numerous smaller cases of genocide wholly separate from Srebrenica that, when searched for specifically, together attain dozens of thousands of hits as well. Asim Led would further like to note that the fact that cases dealing with these instances of genocide have not yet been resolved in international court as of early 2006 should not cause any obstruction seeing as this lack of official recognition can be easily pointed out and followed by a list of facts on the matter. Asim Led 06:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can't talk about something that isn't defined by trying to define it (at least not in an encyclopedia entry) and then correct it by pointing out: 'oh, by the way, this strictly speaking doesn't really exist as such, though it very well may have, and here's why I think that it should exist or that it will'. Srebrenica does not equal entire Bosnia. Either have this article be about War crimes in Bosnia which would include all the non-Srebrenica stuff or have it concetrate on legal aspects of Srebrenica, as I suggested below.Zvonko 02:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't defined how?

...Isn't defined as genocide, the article itself is trying to define it as such. This article, the way its currently written, takes Srebrenica (which does have legal basis to be mentioned in terms of genocide) and tries to lump it in with other war crimes committed against Muslims (which no court ever labeled as genocide). According to its title, the article is implying a Bosnia-wide genocide committed by Serbs against Muslims took place (and maybe it's also saying that Croats, too, 'effectively helped Serbs along' for a period of time, it isn't really clear). As evidence it offers 1 or 2 pending court cases the outcome of which can certainly not be psychically predicted even though it tries to. That is what I object to. The article is called Bosnian Genocide and yet it only talks about Srebrenica. All of the other non-Srebrenica stuff that would hopefully justify the adjective "Bosnian" in its title (meaning: more than just Srebrenica) is speculation and predictions. So, as I said, my suggestion is to either have the article be about legal side of Srebrenica (which in large part it is already) or to give it a major re-haul into War Crimes in Bosnia theme (although that may be a bit too ambitious) but it would be a start.Zvonko 11:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

ICTY prosecution has labeled incidents in Omarska camp, Manjaca camp, Brcko, Zvornik, Visegrad and Sarajevo as genocide (to name few). International court of Justice has a case of BiH vs SCG for genocide that is to begin shortly. The trials are not finished but that does not lessen the fact that acts commited can be defined as genocide under the Roman statute and that is what many sources are doing including academic and media. Article is carefull about not to jump to conclusions before the trial is over but it serves at least to point to other cases of war crimes that many in the world consider to be also cases of genocide on the teritory of BiH.

Nikola's comments don't even merit a response.--Dado 15:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

ICTY prosecution was wrong, and you know it, so stop dragging that old argument again and again. Nikola 19:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think he was saying that it is an established term in textbooks. --Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, read what he wrote again. You won't be thinking that anymore.Zvonko 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. So please explain to me then, strictly using english language norms, what term should be used to describe a genocide that took place in Bosnia? Or is this impossible to do without delving into "personal psychic predictions"? Asim Led 05:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As I already stated, all of this could've been mentioned in Srebrenica Massacre article, but if you (the general you) feel further explanations are required to Srebrenica or that this legal speak (which, essentially, is what this article is about) would clutter the original Srebrenica article, you could name this article Genocide in Srebrenica or Legal Case for genocide in Srebrenica and have it as a companion / addendum article to Srebrenica Massacre. Zvonko 01:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No genocide which encompassed entire Bosnia happened recently. Nikola 17:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful. Now you might want to try and actually answer my question. Asim Led 20:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As no genocide happened in Bosnia, there is no term which should be used to describe it. Nikola 10:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You have yet to answer my question. Read what I wrote again and quit straying off topic. Asim Led 19:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Unless you guys can bring some valid arguements and not beat the dead horse I will have to ask for admin mediation on this case because frankly I am getting tired of this non-sense--Dado 15:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, with that disingenuous, pre-determined attitude, this will certainly not work.Zvonko 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Dado: "It is quite relevant that the same institution that defined the Srebrenica massacre as the act of genocide is conducting several other trials including genocide in other regions of Bosnia that share the same established doctrine that Srebrenica event had. It is not suprising that many consider this as a commonality that is defined in terms of a Bosnian genocide or that the Srebrenica is only an example of what has happened elsewhere in Bosnia."

This is full of editorializing. Translated into common language: “None of this was/is established, but I hope it will be so I wrote an entry on Wikipedia to anticipate that event.”

You also wrote: "Now it stands that this trial is still ongoing but the article that we have here is very carefull not to make presuptions of guilt until the trial is finished. "

How can something entitled Bosnian Genocide not be presuming guilt!?Zvonko 20:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Dado appears to be thinking that he'll be able to vandalise Wikipedia when ICTY judges Milosevic guilty. Rest assured Dado, you won't. Nikola 08:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Truth hurts, doesn't it. --Dado 15:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No, truth is sweet and lovable, and you hate her. Nikola 19:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Mediation has been requested for this article --Dado 18:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tag

Is the tag really necessary? It's been for quitte a while here... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. But than again I am not the one who is disputing the article. --Dado 04:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The article speaks about things that have never happened as if they have really happened. Nikola 07:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Events did happen and your denial is also included in the article so I don't see a problem with the article. --Dado 18:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, and I though that you two have argues only on places within BiH.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh for saying this, but you must either learn a common language or both stay out of your "disputes". Please don't get insulted by this - by your conflicts are starting to colateral damage the rest of good ol' wiki. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 18:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought that this topic does relates to BiH. Instead of commenting on users what is your comment on the content presented in the article? --Dado 22:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Relates to BiH, yes; but not places in BiH that have been cought in edit wars (Prijedor, Cazin,...) --HolyRomanEmperor 13:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The current version of the article is wikipedia-worthy. Although, that mention "predominantly male" is a little unencyclopedic. I mean, I know that males had the most sacrifices - but that can be seen in the text. This way, it is unnecessary exclamation, I am afraid to admit. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

...on the second hand, the article could be also at least a little bigger and tydied. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your comments in general. I agree that it needs to be expanded and cleaned up. There are few items I think would need to be rephrased as well. However, I have refrained from editing on this article since it is such a sensitive topic that any movement will probably cause an edit war. In addition to that, although I have started this article I feel as if I am a persona non grata on this article and my edits are blindly viewed as biased by some users.

Please bring up suggestions on how to revise and settle this issue. Thanks --Dado 18:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Nikola should specify what he thinks didn't happen and then follow the policy route:

If no source at all can be found for the claim, then it should be removed.
If a partisan source claims it happened, then the claim should be attributed to that source (e.g. ...according to source X, this happened ...).
If all sources (neutral and some partisan) agree that something happened, then it can be presented as a statement of fact.

--Latinus 19:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind what was Nikola's principle position so far most of which can be found on this discussion page above.

Bosnian genocide did not happen.
Even if the genocide was proven at the ICTY, ICTY is illegal and hence has no merit or at a very least is a partisan in itself (which is a logical fallacy and a dubious argument at all)
Would say that I am spreading lies and hate the truth (which is an ad hominem logical fallacy and borderline personal attack)
Would say that I am wrong in this summary of his position and that I am commenting on a user and not the content which would somehow discredit me.
Or conjure up another nonproductive argument.

Instead of asking others, who have dragged out this issue to an absolute absurdity with their comments, I am asking you and Holy to comment on the article and point out which elements are problematic. --Dado 21:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Main problem with the article is that it claims that "The Bosnian Genocide was an organized killing of Bosnians during the war between 1992 and 1995 by authorities of Republika Srpska and its Army." Authorities of Republika Srpska and its army have never organised a killing of Bosnians on a level which would encompass entire Bosnia or a significant portion of it, nor does anyone claim that they did, including even ICTY (which is illegal and not impartial, and it isn't logical fallacy to say so), and so there has been no event which could be described as "the Bosnian Genocide". Nikola 22:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Nikola, but ICTY is commonly viewed as legitimate and, as far as I know, is recognised as such by every member of the UN, so their rulings, for our purposes at least, are valid. If an institution of some credibility were to doubt its legitimacy, then you could say something like the incident at Srebrenica was held to be a case of genocide by the ICTY, however, their impartiality and legitimacy have been contested by X, Y and Z. If every credible institution however acknowledges its legitimacy, then nothing need be mentioned and their legitimacy and impartiality are presumed, therefore it is also presumed that the Srebrenica incident was both factually and legally a case of genocide.

However, as the ICTY defined only the Srebrenica incident as genocide (didn't it?), I'm suggesting that the contested paragraph be replaced with:

The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was a massacre of Bosnians, predominantly male Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), conducted by the Army of Republika Srpska during July 1992.

And then elaborate... --Latinus 23:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revisionism

Hello. I've been trying to include the Srebrenica massacre and the Bosnian genocide in the Historical revisionism page, but one - yes, only one - user is systematically erasing it, along with the Rwandan Genocide (he considers revisionism of this last one as a "French internal affair"). Maybe some of you guys up there would like in helping us write a relevant Wikipedia entry on all types of historical revisionism. Lapaz 14:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes...

I think that I see the main problem why is this article causing edit wars. One of them is that the RS government conducted mass killings. Although there is no doubt that the Serbian government indeed did organize the mass removal & ethnic cleansing of the non-Serb population - the current phrase is like a Big Bertha. You should rephrase it (as actually - the Army conducted the mass murder - not the government (at least no directly)) --HolyRomanEmperor 16:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This subject is far too fishy - so you'll have to understand, Dado, if I don't want to get involved any deeper. I wish to note another compromise: On wikipedia, we have established that the Croatian military is responsible for Operation Medak pocket and Gorski Kotari massacres of Serbs in the Croatian Civil War - and that the massive exodus of the Serbian populace from Croatia in Operation Storm was caused by the Croatian Army's military campaign. However, some sources like this: Tušmanove izjave and other, show the "removal of Serbs from Croatia" was organized by the President himself and the supreme commander of the Army, as well as other high officials. However, this is too fishy - so we just point out that the Croatian Army conducted a genocide in the operation and that the military commanders were acused by ICTY. Get what I am pointing at? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason why the sentence is stating "authorities" is because there were several police and paramilitary units organized by the government who also commited a great deal of killings. But we can be more explicit than that to avoid any confusion.

"The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was killing of Bosnians, predominantly male Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 to 1995 by the army and police forces organized by Republika Srpska"

--Dado 19:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It's OK, but Dado - here's that "male" again. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, "the" is missing between was and killing (grammar). Other than this & several other issues, it should be OK. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Also - what is this list of 3,278 civilians? I haven't heard about it before - but it's appearing frequently, so I think that someone should do a reaserch on it - and if sourced - include it into the article. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I think those are minor edits. Thanks for your comments:

"The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was the killing of Bosnians, predominantly Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 to 1995 by the army and police forces organized by Republika Srpska"

I am not sure what list are you talking about. Please clarify. If there are no further objections I will add this section to the article--Dado 22:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I didn't "object" in the first place - I merely noted minor errors of the article. :) I agree with that sentence.

[edit] 3,287

About the list - beats me. I've heard about it on several occasions, but cannot guarrantee anything 'bout it. There is some sort of a list of 3,287 (not 3,278) civilians altogether executed by a certain Naser Orić, next to others? Don't take my word - I only heard it a while ago and cannot guarrantee that that thing even exists - does anyone know about it anything? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you are refering to a list of Serbs allegedly killed near Srebrenica prior to the massacre. The list surfaced in early part of 2005 and was made public in BiH on a day when a major police reorganization agreement was supposed to take place to divert attention or gain political points on the fact that RS MUP was supposed to be abolished. No proof was ever given in relation to the list and the list has been discredited numerous times. Naser Oric is on trial at the ICTY for plundering property during the war.--Dado 18:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Well don't tell me. Like I said - I know nothing 'bout it. So I can't really help discussing 'bout it, I am afraid. :( --HolyRomanEmperor 22:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV Fork; merge

Dado, you're really a master of POV Forks. When you encounter resistance on one article, you go on to create another and present your PoVs there. Did this article survived an AfD or am I daydreaming, as I can't find it? (I don't have time to read entire discussion now). As I can see, the only proven genocide in BiH was the Srebrenica massacre and all info in this article is about that. Other cases did not get further than allegations AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong), and, again, to my knowledge, no one is accused in ICTY for genocide in cases other than Srebrenica. What is the rationale, apart from more pretentious wording, to not merge this into Srebrenica massacre? Duja 00:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

This article was never nominated for AfD. Cases other than Srebrenica case are still ongoing and they are not merely allegations but rather indictments for genocide on ICTY. Two of them (Karadzic and Mladic) have gone through Rule 61 rulling where a court has taken a case only short of trial in absentia and allowed prosecution to make its case before the indictees were arrested. There is also ICJ case where Srebrenica is only a drop in the bucket.

[edit] Comments (Moved from Talk:Srebrenica massacre)

Bosnian Genocide and Srebrenica Genocide are, in my opinion, two different things. They should not be merged together.

Care to expand? The article Bosnian Genocide gives only a broad definition, and then proceeds to tell the facts about Srebrenica Genocide and allusions that other cases might have potential to become accepted as genocide: "Statistics may change as these and other cases ... develop", "He warned that attempting this process would amount to genocide." etc. There is also article Bosnian genocide case at the ICJ where Bosnian PoV about the issue should be presented; however, Bosnian Genocide article states it as a fact. If the Bosnian side should win the trial, I might change my opinion. However, WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.Duja 22:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Bosnian Genocide article presents only those elements as facts that have been proven at the ICTY ie. Srebrenica Massacre. Bosnian Genocide as a subject goes beyond the case of genocide that took place in Srebrenica and presents other cases that are dealing with this complex issue. What Duja is attempting to do here is to conceal the matter of genocide as only pertaining to Srebrenice and make a quick conclusion and closure, while the scope of it is at a very least disputed and claimed by many to be much broader. The article presents several indictments at ICTY against individuals for crimes in the whole region of BiH and the case BiH vs SCG at the ICJ while not jumping to conclusion that these cases can yet be considered as facts. Although the articles are related I see no reason to merge the two.--Dado 21:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If I were trying to make a quick conclusion and closure of anything, I would edit the article, AfD it or whatever. I just added tags, and raised my concerns on the talk pages. If, as you say "The article presents several indictments at ICTY against individuals ", then the title of the article should read "Indictments of genocide in Bosnia", and it should not start with words "Bosnian Genocide is killing of Bosniaks.". If the "scope of the term is much broader", then the article should mention that its scope is disputed. And it has a PoV title from the start. Duja 22:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

What specifically is my POV on this article and what specifically are you argueing here. --Dado 21:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, point by point:

Intro: The Bosnian Genocide or Bosnia Genocide was killing of Bosnians...by the army and police forces organized by Republika Srpska.

Who uses the term "Bosnian Genocide" in that sense apart from Bosnian government circles and some Bosniaks? Genocide is a too big a word to be used so easily. Ethnic cleansing? Yes. Crimes against humanity? Yes. Genocide? Maybe, but not proven.

The Bosnian Genocide is a term used by some... when referring to the case of genocide that took place in Srebrenica, which has been proven..."

This instance of genocide is proven, so merge it to Srebrenica massacre.

There are several genocide trials and indictments... Statistics may (emphasis mine) change as these and other cases develop.

WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

In addition ... there is an ongoing court case before the International Court of Justice a so called Bosnian genocide case at the ICJ.

There is indeed. So, the "Bosnian genocide" is not a proven term, but a point of dispute and a trial.

US House of Representatives resolution.

I admit this has certain merit, though it's not binding for US Government. And also, bear in mind that this is a political statement.

I won't go further. Note that I'm not objecting about the factual accuracy of the article, but just one-sided presentation of those facts. Most of all, I object to the title, which presumes proof of existence of the Genocide (apart from Srebrenica one, again). I'd prefer instead War crimes in Bosnia, or, if you insist, Serb war crimes in Bosnia, Croat war crimes in Bosnia and Bosniak war crimes in Bosnia. At this point, this article looks like a part of Bosnian case over ICJ more than an encyclopedia article. Duja 21:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I have presented several links where the use of the term is shown in relation to Srebrenica massacre but also in relation to the ICTY cases such as "Milosevic to Face Bosnian Genocide Charges". I see no problem with the title as it correctly points out that there is judicial debate about the genocide conducted on the entire region of BiH. --Dado 17:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

In line 148, in one sentence. The intro doesn't mention that. Duja 18:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

If I was speaking from a POV I would state numerous Bosniak sources that take the crimes commited in BiH as definite genocide based on the Genocide Convention from 1949. --Dado 17:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, you should have. Seriously. The article now does not mention Bosniak views, nor Serb one. Duja 18:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind that this is a debate if articles should be merged but so far you have only argued the content of the article. Since you have not commented on the fact that the article takes in account other genocide cases and deserves a separate stub to review those cases I don't see any other reason to merge these articles.--Dado 17:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

But if you take out Srebrenica facts, what remains? Only few hints, as I said above. That's why I suggested to merge it there. Don't take my "merge" as a definite proposal—but when I stumbled upon this collection of factoids, I didn't know myself what would I do with it. Merge is one option. Rewrite from scratch another. Delete third (I know it wouldn't pass an AfD so why bother). The title is IMO a bombastic POV, and the substance is incoherent.

Look, I support the idea that war crimes in Bosnian War should be summarized at one place, even if solely Serbs' war crimes. But this article does not have a focus on anything. If I may summarize it in few words, it goes like:

"Bosnian Genocide is commited by RS against Bosniaks. Some people refer Srebrenica by that name. Srebrenica genocide is confirmed by ICTY. There might be other cases of genocide sentences. Americans said this. Karadzic and Mladic said that." All of it are hints – there is no substance, no story.

If you want to have my opinion: go ahead and create a summary article about war crimes in Bosnia. Give it a less bombastic title. Mention every case of war crime and ethnic cleansing. But, for God's sake, don't create articles like "I'd-like-to-have-this-title-but-I-don't-know-what-to-put-in-there". And yes, this time I'm willing to help on it (as long as you decide what you want to write about). Duja 18:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article is a bit all over the place particulary due to different styles of many users who have changed it.

But, let's have all the facts in order:

According to ICTY Srebrenica massacre was a genocide
Many academic and human rights institutions name that genocide a Bosnian genocide.
According to ICTY many war crimes particulary against non-Serbs have been committed on the entire region of Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosniak and few other sides (US House of Rep.) consider those crimes as collectively being part of the larger Bosnian genocide intent in line with the definition of genocide and based on Genocide Convention of 1949.
Serbian side either denies that there was a genocide (both in Srebrenica or in BiH) or it accepts that it only happened in Srebrenica.
There is a court case at ICJ ongoing where BiH is accusing SCG and its surrogate RS of Bosnian genocide on the entire region of BiH.
There is also at least one case (Krajisnik) before the ICTY that also stipulates genocide on the entire region of BiH.
There is at least inconclusive trial of Milosevic that brought to light many facts about what can be considered a Bosnian genocide on the entire region of BiH.

If we were to take only first two points here than you would be right to claim to merge this article with Srebrenica massacre article and I would agree with you. However, the debate is obviously much more complex than that so merge has no merit. Another option to name Srebrenica massacre - Srebrenica genocide would be a possibility but there are common points among these fact that rightfully justify the name of this article as Bosnian Genocide. We can pursue rewriting the article based on these facts. --Dado 19:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section: shouldn't it be Bosniaks (not Bosnians)

The Controversy section talks about Bosnians (eg. There is a significant disagreement between the Bosnian and Bosnian Serb/Serbian side about the ... Bosnian side claims...). Shouldn't it be Bosniak and Serb? Osli73 16:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought I already noted why Bosnian in one of the reverts. It should be Bosnian as it relates to both Bosniaks, Croats and even few Bosnian Serbs as the view is represented in the ICJ case. Also the same case and the view is a representative of R BiH government which is non-ethnical or multi-ethnical--Dado 17:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preposterous

Why is there a "Bosnian Genocide" about a fabricated incident known as Srebrenica and not a section for the genocide against Serbs in Ustashe Croatia?

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../b/o/s/Talk%7EBosnian_Genocide_7d6d.html"

Talk:Bosnian Genocide

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Contents

[edit] All the Kids are united!!!

[edit] Genocide

[edit] Name of the article

[edit] Hmmm...

[edit] Indictment is not the judgment

[edit] Mediation or arbitration

[edit] Disputed

[edit] Disputed contents

[edit] Am I lying?

[edit] "disclaimer"

[edit] Disputed contents

[edit] Removed 23. jun 2005

[edit] Genocide did happen

[edit] US resolution removed

[edit] Biljana Plavsic pleaded guilty to war crimes

[edit] Factual accuracy

[edit] POV

[edit] Criticism

[edit] Dispute and vandalism

[edit] Tag

[edit] Revisionism

[edit] Yes...

[edit] 3,287

[edit] POV Fork; merge

[edit] Comments (Moved from Talk:Srebrenica massacre)

[edit] Controversy section: shouldn't it be Bosniaks (not Bosnians)

[edit] Preposterous

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